Ilitch's Choice: The Eddystone Hotel Lives, Park Avenue Hotel to die

[Richard]

Comet bar and a hotel aka brothel? Guys [[and gals) we are grabbing at straws.

The issue, as I understand it, is that one building stands inside the perimeter of the arena complex, it would be very close to his arena [[and architecturally doesn't fit at all) and Ilitch apparently doesn't feel it is appropriate.

It is his land. He owns title to it. The only power the city has is zoning, which is like trying to stop a boulder rolling down hill.

If they were excepting no taxpayer funding then yes,but it works nowhere in the country where you can use taxpayer funding and then tell them to shove off.

Market rate apartments is a fluff piece with the CC trying to look good,it opens up millions more in city,state,and federal credits.In three years the market rate expires and demand rate applies.

It will take 3 years to get it all off the ground and by that time it will be ready for a corporate change and rate increase.

Is it worth the loss for 3 years of 20 market rate apartments?

Thier only concern 100% is the stadium and have even said they hope others fill in the rest,maybe it will happen maybe it will not.

According the comments they have created two large chunks of excellerated blight to obtain thier goal with no concern about those around the city,the citizens have every right to have thier input and place thier conditions,it is thier civic duty to do so.

There is a gentleman called Bob Snow located in Olando,he has built complexes like this in very similar conditions and surroundings across the country mixing historic with new.Starting in the 70s in blighted downtown situations.

The council would be wise to spend a few hours with him and they will find out where this is headed,today,tommorow and 10 years down the road,otherwise it is just another case of pandering.

The city has a lot more say in things then one gives them credit for,they can set the standards for devolopement , including,setbacks,landscaping,parking lot buffers,adhering to historic compatability.

There is not a city in this country where a developer dictates to the city how things are going to happen,well maybe one city.

[emu steve]

Issues #2 and #3 have almost nothing to do with Detroit's future prospects. The idea that replacing one hockey arena for another, and replacing some buses with trolleys will be the keys to Detroit's future, is completely absurd.

Right...

One building [[JLA) replaced by another building [[new arena) = net zero [[+1 and -1). So this is elementary school math? Not urban redevelopment.

What pray tell, is Detroit's future? What actions, events [[short of the Second Coming), are larger than these events? A new arena development which essentially encompasses what about 9 blocks, redoing Woodward paving, new rail, etc. [[hell, just redoing Woodward to out beyond 94 would get me excited).

Some actions [[e.g., a rehab in Midtown, or a Gilbert building) are nice and important, but have little consequence beyond the immediate area.

The Woodward/Fisher/Temple area is the gateway to downtown. It might be the most consequential few blocks in the city. Many downtown blocks are of minimal consequence despite their location.

One thing which hasn't been mentioned in these threads is how this development is DIFFERENT than other commercial development in Detroit. Too many building were built with a 'fortress' type mentality [[e.g., RenCen, Motor City Casino, etc.).

Isn't this the exact opposite? There will be an 'attached' hotel, plaza, shops open 364 days a year, etc. There will be new residential construction.

And they are the GATEWAY to Temple/Cass. Nothing will happen in that area unless [[and until) the arena is built and revitalization starts to move north toward the Masonic Temple area.

Now that area has very little vitality and no hope w/out the arena. It would remain so for decades.

[Dan_the_man]

And they are the GATEWAY to Temple/Cass. Nothing will happen in that area unless [[and until) the arena is built and revitalization starts to move north to the Masonic Temple area.

Now that area has as much vitality as a dead rat in the street.

You know why right? Because Illitch has been buying up land there for the past 10 years and purposely been letting it deteriorate so the the surrounding land goes down in value so that he can buy it too. If he didn't own it, something might happen, but he wouldn't let anyone even if they wanted to do something there. Same with his parking empire behind the Fox.

[ghettopalmetto]

One thing which hasn't been mentioned in these threads is how this development is DIFFERENT than other commercial development in Detroit. Too many building were built with a 'fortress' type mentality [[e.g., RenCen, Motor City Casino, etc.).

Isn't this the exact opposite? There will be an 'attached' hotel, plaza, shops open 364 days a year, etc. There will be new residential construction.

How is this so different? The arena complex will be a cordoned-off, privately-owned, self-contained, focus-grouped, lowest-common-denominator strip mall experience surrounded by parking, designed strictly to funnel cash directly from your wallet into Mike Ilitch's. The reason everything is attached is so you don't dare have to walk down a *publicly-owned street* and risk giving your money to anyone other than Mike Ilitch. Hardly groundbreaking stuff...it's just suburban schlock reconstituted on a parcel of scorched earth urbanity.

This is not how you build a city.

[canuck]

Ghettopalmetto, you're absolutely right about Detroit becoming more demanding. The problem is that there is so much crappy architecture going up in cities all over that the cards are stacked in a sense. But promoters and designers should be held to higher standards. For that to happen, you need an educated committee to review said designs. Who are the guardians of architecture at City Hall or Wayne county?

[emu steve]

How is this so different? The arena complex will be a cordoned-off, privately-owned, self-contained, focus-grouped, lowest-common-denominator strip mall experience surrounded by parking, designed strictly to funnel cash directly from your wallet into Mike Ilitch's. The reason everything is attached is so you don't dare have to walk down a *publicly-owned street* and risk giving your money to anyone other than Mike Ilitch. Hardly groundbreaking stuff...it's just suburban schlock reconstituted on a parcel of scorched earth urbanity.

This is not how you build a city.

Whatever...

He is building an arena, with an open design to incorporate other small ancillary buildings related to his arena operation, some new mid-rise residential, plazas, parking decks [[not visible from Woodward), planning for a new hotel at Woodward/Henry/Fisher, planning a new building adjacent to the Fox, planning new residential buildings adjacent to Comerica, etc. etc.

That doesn't sound like some shyster who is only interested in a reduced cost facility for his team.

I dare say what the Ilitch family is doing compares favorably with most any sports owner in America.

Lot of folks who hate sports team owners who get subsidies to build new facilities. [[p.s. if anyone got fleeced it was D.C. which paid for a very expensive stadium and got no help from the rich Lerner family. I'd trade Lerner + 'draft choices' Lol, for Ilitch. Ilitch is considered a very good sports owner).

[RickBeall]

Both buildings look like brick boxes. Let'em go.

[ghettopalmetto]

Whatever...

He is building an arena, with an open design to incorporate other small ancillary buildings related to his arena operation, some new mid-rise residential, plazas, parking decks [[not visible from Woodward), planning for a new hotel at Woodward/Henry/Fisher, planning a new building adjacent to the Fox, planning new residential buildings adjacent to Comerica, etc. etc.

That doesn't sound like some shyster who is only interested in a reduced cost facility for his team.

Mike Ilitch. The man who collected checks from the City of Detroit for cutting the grass at Tiger Stadium. Without bothering to cut the grass. Why, if that doesn't describe the famous Ilitch hookem-and-crookem altruism, I don't know what does.

Let's revisit this thread in five years' time, shall we? And we'll compare what actually gets built to the Land of Sunshine and Lollipops that you've described.

In the meantime, may I suggest that Naive is not a good color on you? I mean, what exactly has Mike Ilitch done to earn so much blind faith? His abysmal track record of destruction and hijacking bags of public cash is quite self-evident, I think.

[Gistok]

Both buildings look like brick boxes. Let'em go.

Yeah, all those detailed arches and ornament of a pair of 13 story historic structures by a well known architect, will clash with the streamlined beauty of low rise cement slab parking structures....

[DetroitBoy]

Mike Ilitch. The man who collected checks from the City of Detroit for cutting the grass at Tiger Stadium. Without bothering to cut the grass. Why, if that doesn't describe the famous Ilitch hookem-and-crookem altruism, I don't know what does.

Let's revisit this thread in five years' time, shall we? And we'll compare what actually gets built to the Land of Sunshine and Lollipops that you've described.

In the meantime, may I suggest that Naive is not a good color on you? I mean, what exactly has Mike Ilitch done to earn so much blind faith? His abysmal track record of destruction and hijacking bags of public cash is quite self-evident, I think.

Ummm, the man took the financial risk to move his company to downtown Detroit when there was little more than tumbleweeds blowing down Woodward Avenue and he brought back the Fox Theatre as a prominent venue.

Has he made money on the investment? Sure he has. He's in business to MAKE MONEY. That is what capitalism is and by the way, that kind of entrepreneurial spirit is what built Detroit into the auto capital of the world! Most likely, you'd be pissing on Herny Ford right now if he was here as well.

To try to appease you, I will write to Mike Ilitch and suggest he sell the bricks from the Park Ave hotel as souvenirs in the gift shop at the new arena. That way, its heritage can be preserved as door stops for the patrons of the new facility. I'll even ask him to dump a load of them on your front doorstep so you can re-build the city the way you see fit.

Haven't you beaten this topic to a pulp now? There is a strip club being torn down in Capitol Park. Maybe you should move on and start the fight to preserve that due to its historical significance as well.

[Dan_the_man]

So 30 some years ago he moved his company downtown and restored the Fox. How long can he continue to get credit for that when he has done so much bad since then. What happened to the street market that he was going to develop on Columbia that was announced multiple times, and allowed him to close off Columbia which he now uses as a paid parking lot. What about all the buildings he has demolished by neglect or otherwise. Everything behind the Fox that he tore down to use as parking, the crumbling UA Theatre, The Madison-Lennox, the deal he had to redevelop the GAR building which he never followed through on, The renovation of the Detroit Life Building that was announced back in 2005ish. How can you expect him to suddenly follow through on all his new plans, when all he has ever done in the past is the exact opposite?

[Mackinaw]

Haven't you beaten this topic to a pulp now? There is a strip club being torn down in Capitol Park. Maybe you should move on and start the fight to preserve that due to its historical significance as well.

Actually now that you mention it...

Wow, Illitch has really done well to burnish an impressive reputation, and an image in which Detroit was dead before his dollars arrived [[not true). Trust me, on non-game days there were more tumbleweeds on Woodward in 2008 than 1988. It is only since then, through the intercession of Gilbert, more downtown jobs, more downtown residences, a legit restaurant scene, and notably adjusted metropolitan attitudes that things got better along Woodward, activity/pedestrian-wise.

Who brought the jobs? Karmanos, then Gilbert, then plenty of followers who I applaud, not Illitch.

Who brought the residences? A slew of developers, but not Illitch.

Who opened the restaurants? Most definitely not Illitch.

Who brought an attitude adjustment? A whole damn lot of things, but probably Gilbert and actual people who moved to Detroit and preached a good word more than anyone. Or maybe it just happened on its own after the great economic purges of 2008 when people realized we needed a strong central city to grow the economy [[this is one of my theories). But Illitch? Nah.

[ghettopalmetto]

Has he made money on the investment? Sure he has. He's in business to MAKE MONEY. That is what capitalism is and by the way, that kind of entrepreneurial spirit is what built Detroit into the auto capital of the world! Most likely, you'd be pissing on Herny Ford right now if he was here as well.

"Entrepreneurial Spirit" = Soak the taxpayers for free ca$hola at every opportunity. Let your own properties fall apart into a state of dangerous disrepair.

Next, I suppose you'll tell me how "hard-working" the Ilitch family is! LOL.

In the restaurant industry, they say a chef is only as good as the last meal he served. Now how would that apply to good ole "Honest" Mike Ilitch, hmmmmm?

So, no. I'm not done beating this to death. Not until every last person in the City of Detroit recognizes that Mike Ilitch is The Biggest Effing Cancer ravaging the city. Until then, I will mock those who disagree.

[DetroitBoy]

Actually now that you mention it...

Wow, Illitch has really done well to burnish an impressive reputation, and an image in which Detroit was dead before his dollars arrived [[not true). Trust me, on non-game days there were more tumbleweeds on Woodward in 2008 than 1988. It is only since then, through the intercession of Gilbert, more downtown jobs, more downtown residences, a legit restaurant scene, and notably adjusted metropolitan attitudes that things got better along Woodward, activity/pedestrian-wise.

Who brought the jobs? Karmanos, then Gilbert, then plenty of followers who I applaud, not Illitch.

Who brought the residences? A slew of developers, but not Illitch.

Who opened the restaurants? Most definitely not Illitch.

Who brought an attitude adjustment? A whole damn lot of things, but probably Gilbert and actual people who moved to Detroit and preached a good word more than anyone. Or maybe it just happened on its own after the great economic purges of 2008 when people realized we needed a strong central city to grow the economy [[this is one of my theories). But Illitch? Nah.

And the same people are bitching that Dan Gilbert is raping the city, owning everything, controlling city government and on and on.

The history of the City of Detroit and its success was built by multiple strong, driving business leaders. Someone had to drive the first stake in the ground and that is what has happened with building the new Detroit with Ilitch. It hasn't been a straight up ascent. There was a plateau, and then another upswing, and hopefully we are on the launch point for a straight trajectory now that we have a strong mayor and city council working together with those strong, driving business leaders who are coming forward and willing to invest. You can't fault the person who came first, when there weren't many others in line, for capturing opportunity and lining himself up to be more successful. That is what the risk reward curve in investment is all about.

[ghettopalmetto]

The history of the City of Detroit and its success was built by multiple strong, driving business leaders. Someone had to drive the first stake in the ground and that is what has happened with building the new Detroit with Ilitch.

Well, Ilitch has certainly driven a few stakes into things. But this "new Detroit"...it's supposed to look like empty parking lots, right?

[DetroitBoy]

Well, Ilitch has certainly driven a few stakes into things. But this "new Detroit"...it's supposed to look like empty parking lots, right?

If it is disturbing you that much, you should leave.

As I have said before on other threads, the city fell over a 55 year period. It isn't going to come back in 10 or 20 or maybe even 30 years. Those lots are going to get built on when the space is needed for business or housing. What was NOT feasible was to have the abandoned buildings that previously occupied those locations sitting decaying under the hope that some day they would be needed. That just isn't how business, investment and economic prosperity is created.

[Dan_the_man]

So we should have torn every building down then? What would the city look like if every building that had been empty at some point had been demolished? The cost to securely board up a building and mothball it until it makes economic sense is much less the cost of demolition. Not to mention that the types of buildings that were built in the 20's are not justifiable to build these days. Downtown would barely exist if everything had been torn down.

[ghettopalmetto]

As I have said before on other threads, the city fell over a 55 year period. It isn't going to come back in 10 or 20 or maybe even 30 years. Those lots are going to get built on when the space is needed for business or housing. What was NOT feasible was to have the abandoned buildings that previously occupied those locations sitting decaying under the hope that some day they would be needed. That just isn't how business, investment and economic prosperity is created.

No, you're absolutely right. Prosperity is created by clear-cutting the city, then Waiting and Hoping. For what, we're not really sure. Just trust in Mike Ilitch to always do the Right Thing. Because, the Fox Theatre or something.

Does the irony escape you that there is demand for space in downtown Detroit RIGHT AT THIS VERY MOMENT? That in the past 20 years, Detroit has demolished MILLIONS OF SQUARE FEET of downtown space that could otherwise be used for offices, stores, and residences?

Nah, much easier to sit around and make excuses, and expect other people to do the heavy lifting. God forbid anyone ever want to be in downtown Detroit for anything other than Sports or Casinos.

[Mackinaw]

Oh my, please don't equate Gilbert and Illitch, nor reduce my argument to being some ad hominem against Illitch for being rich and powerful. It's about performance. In a much shorter stint of activity Gilbert has already accomplished more on his own. Sure, I can complain about what's taking so long to start building on the Hudson site, but you know what, I am losing track of the number of distressed, historic downtown buildings that Rock has restored already, and the number of residents and workers they've put or are about to put in those spaces. How many such buildings has Illitch restored over a much larger time period? Had he been given the keys to Gilbert's portfolio, most of the buildings that Rock has renovated would now be gone. Indeed, most of Illitch's portfolio is gone. And oh, does Illitch go around courting new companies and sinking massive VC dollars into new companies in Detroit? Nope! That's Gilbert and his people. So yes, there are multiple, strong, driving business leaders in Detroit, and the Illitches are not among them.

Not to patronize you but just to double check, you are well informed as to how many buildings and lots Illitch owns/has owned, and how many have been demolished, correct? Because I have a hard time believing that you and I could be apprised of the same facts, yet you could roughly equate Illitch and Gilbert, on performance. Even Atanas Illitch had to admit, amid all the fluffy press when the "District" rendering were revealed, that Olympia has received criticism for not fulfilling all of its promises in the past, 'and this time it's gonna be different!'

[hewettbr]

I think the best thing lies somewhere between both of your thoughts. I think your arguments are both extreme

No, you're absolutely right. Prosperity is created by clear-cutting the city, then Waiting and Hoping. For what, we're not really sure. Just trust in Mike Ilitch to always do the Right Thing. Because, the Fox Theatre or something.

Does the irony escape you that there is demand for space in downtown Detroit RIGHT AT THIS VERY MOMENT? That in the past 20 years, Detroit has demolished MILLIONS OF SQUARE FEET of downtown space that could otherwise be used for offices, stores, and residences?

Nah, much easier to sit around and make excuses, and expect other people to do the heavy lifting. God forbid anyone ever want to be in downtown Detroit for anything other than Sports or Casinos.

[DetroitBoy]

No, you're absolutely right. Prosperity is created by clear-cutting the city, then Waiting and Hoping. For what, we're not really sure. Just trust in Mike Ilitch to always do the Right Thing. Because, the Fox Theatre or something.

Does the irony escape you that there is demand for space in downtown Detroit RIGHT AT THIS VERY MOMENT? That in the past 20 years, Detroit has demolished MILLIONS OF SQUARE FEET of downtown space that could otherwise be used for offices, stores, and residences?

Nah, much easier to sit around and make excuses, and expect other people to do the heavy lifting. God forbid anyone ever want to be in downtown Detroit for anything other than Sports or Casinos.

You're very dramatic but not very convincing. There NEEDS TO BE DEMAND for space in desirable areas in order for there to be INVESTMENT to provide the CORRECT TYPE and AMOUNT of space as the business cycle expands. Over supply of a resource with lower demand results in lower prices, less profit and a contraction in the business cycle and ultimately BANKRUPTCY. If you have been following the news, the City of Detroit has just emerged from bankruptcy. I would sincerely hope there is pent up demand because that is how investment, growth and expansion of the business cycle will occur in the city. Having a glut of space [[no matter how esthetically beautiful), drives prices and profit down and contracts the business cycle.

I love old architecture myself but everything isn't historically significant just because it is old. And keeping every old building means there is no room to build anything new unless you keep migrating outside of the city core and ultimately creating sprawl. Creating the new Detroit does not mean we will be able to recreate the city in the same setting from the 1920s. The way businesses and organizations and space is used is not the same, nor can it be tailored, to accomdate all existing structures. Land is something we have a lot of in Metro Detroit which is why we have sprawl. If we were land locked, we would have been tearing down buildings to erect structures to meet current needs all along. It's a cycle of investment, usage, decline, demolition and then reinvestment.

[Mackinaw]

Keeping every old building means there is no room to build anything new unless you keep migrating outside of the city core and ultimately creating sprawl.

Oh lord, DBoy, have you looked around the city lately? If not, have you ever perused a google map of Detroit? NO ROOM?!?!?!?!

I cannot think of a single portion of Detroit, downtown, midtown, or any neighborhood, where we have no room. There are hardly even any downtown blocks that are 100% unbroken streetwall. We've got room, my friend. We've got room. The population of the entire metropolitan area could probably go up 25% [[about 1 million) and we could fit every last one of those new people in the City proper without any suburban development and without demolishing a single building in the city. And honestly you could probably still have a lot of low-rise development, it's not like this would entail turning ourselves into Tokyo or Manhattan. So, with that modest proposal, I say again, we've got room.... especially in the arena district.

Go take a stroll this evening, you'll see what I mean

[emu steve]

I'm going to make a quick pivot to make a point [[actually ask a question):

The FBI building on Pennsylvania Ave. in D.C. is a 'brutalist' building which many folks absolutely do not like [[there are similar buildings like HUD, etc. similar style). [[i'll get a link showing the FBI building). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover_Building

Should that building go or stay? D.C. wants it gone. FBI wants to move to the 'burbs presumably that this building does not met current needs [[which have changed greatly because of technological changes, e.g., computers, telecommunications, etc. as we are no longer in a paper based era where the FBI had to store tons of paper).

Should butt ugly architecture be saved?

[[without getting off topic, a lot of housing in S.W. Washington, D.C. during the 1970s had an architectural style which to me was not at all good. Lot of arch. back then wasn't easy on the eyes.).

[ghettopalmetto]

You're very dramatic but not very convincing. There NEEDS TO BE DEMAND for space in desirable areas in order for there to be INVESTMENT to provide the CORRECT TYPE and AMOUNT of space as the business cycle expands.

Guess what's happening in Downtown Detroit right at this very moment, Chief? Tons of old buildings have been/are being rehabbed and filled with tenants. But you can't renovate buildings that don't exist! Compare the number of renovated buildings to the number of brand-new buildings that have been erected on Ilitch-owned scorched-earth lots. It's just not smart to demolish buildings when they're needed to accommodate demand.

Yes, this makes sense. All kinds of old buildings are being renovated, so let's tear another one down so we can have another empty lot. That way, we're certain to have redevelopment I think!

I love old architecture myself but everything isn't historically significant just because it is old.

This isn't even about historical significance. It's about being wise. Detroit has spent MILLIONS of dollars over the past several decades demolishing buildings. And for what? Empty lots!

"Hi, I'm Velvet Jones, and this is my new book, "How to Turn $100,000 in Real Estate into $10,000 Cash!'."

Creating the new Detroit does not mean we will be able to recreate the city in the same setting from the 1920s. The way businesses and organizations and space is used is not the same, nor can it be tailored, to accomdate all existing structures.

Nor should a new Detroit look like Hall Road. I think you had better go to New York, Philadelphia, Chicago--hell, Cleveland--and tell them all how stupid they are for filling old buildings downtown. Because clearly, you know something that everyone else doesn't.

[DetroitBoy]

Oh my, please don't equate Gilbert and Illitch, nor reduce my argument to being some ad hominem against Illitch for being rich and powerful. It's about performance. In a much shorter stint of activity Gilbert has already accomplished more on his own. Sure, I can complain about what's taking so long to start building on the Hudson site, but you know what, I am losing track of the number of distressed, historic downtown buildings that Rock has restored already, and the number of residents and workers they've put or are about to put in those spaces. How many such buildings has Illitch restored over a much larger time period? Had he been given the keys to Gilbert's portfolio, most of the buildings that Rock has renovated would now be gone. Indeed, most of Illitch's portfolio is gone. And oh, does Illitch go around courting new companies and sinking massive VC dollars into new companies in Detroit? Nope! That's Gilbert and his people. So yes, there are multiple, strong, driving business leaders in Detroit, and the Illitches are not among them.

Not to patronize you but just to double check, you are well informed as to how many buildings and lots Illitch owns/has owned, and how many have been demolished, correct? Because I have a hard time believing that you and I could be apprised of the same facts, yet you could roughly equate Illitch and Gilbert, on performance. Even Atanas Illitch had to admit, amid all the fluffy press when the "District" rendering were revealed, that Olympia has received criticism for not fulfilling all of its promises in the past, 'and this time it's gonna be different!'

Is it possible the mortgage crisis and the meltdown of the U.S. economy, the bankruptcy and collapse of the US auto industry, the subsequent chaos and fall of the City of Detroit, the nose dive in the real estate market in Metro Detroit and the impact of all of this on the outlook for the State of Michigan or any number of other unprecedented external factors may have impacted Mike Ilitch's business plans for those properties ?

Perhaps his strategy was to cut both fixed and variable costs, cancel investment and batten down the hatches for the foreseeable future. Could this have impacted his performance? This sounds very much like what most businesses did during that period. In addition, many of those businesses are just now willing to start to reinvest because they see the economy strengthening.

Dan Gilbert arrived on the scene many years after Ilitch, when times were starting to improve a bit. He's probably less risk adverse and more aggressive than Ilitch and is jumping in and making things happen. This doesn't mean every other business leader or investor is going to sit on the sidelines going forward. If everything continues to trend in the right direction in the US economy and the State continues to be supportive of the City of Detroit, 2015 could be a year of significant growth for the city.