Eight Mile before the Woodward Overpass Trilevel

[MikeM]

1947, maybe? I think that's when they quit running north of the fairgrounds. Someone else here will know better.

[EastsideAl]

1947, maybe? I think that's when they quit running north of the fairgrounds. Someone else here will know better.

According to the Detroit Street Railways book I have, service from the Fairgrounds to Royal Oak was indeed ended on May 3, 1947. I'm not sure when the tracks were removed, but I'm sure they were gone when the bridge was built and the parking was built into the median in Ferndale. I remember tracks still being visible on some streets in Royal Oak into the early '70s.

[DetroitBoy]

Was there a rail service like this on Jefferson as well? Where did it terminate? I don't recall ever hearing my mother or grandparents talk about these when we lived in the Pointes.

[Gistok]

Was there a rail service like this on Jefferson as well? Where did it terminate? I don't recall ever hearing my mother or grandparents talk about these when we lived in the Pointes.

https://books.google.com/books?id=UG...pointe&f=false

[EastsideAl]

Map of DUR Interurban system, 1913 [[click to enlarge)
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...troit-1913.jpg

[DetroitBoy]

Gistok,Thanks for this reference. Very surprised to hear they were on Fischer to GPB very close to where we were. Do you know when they removed the tracks? My grandparents came to the neighborhood full time during the war when my mom was born at Cottage. Their helping girl always took the bus on Jefferson back to her home downtown. Must have been in the mid to late 40s they went all busses.

[mtburb]

There was also a similar service on West Jefferson and Fort Street-the Fort line turned into what's now Electric through the extreme southwest side into Riverview. I remember potholes on the side streets within the median of Electric in Wyandotte and Lincoln Park revealing fragments of the rusted-out tracks well into the 80's, maybe even the 90's. The westernmost of the Eureka Road viaducts carried this line and today sits as a bridge to nowhere.

[dtowncitylover]

Map of DUR Interurban system, 1913 [[click to enlarge)
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...troit-1913.jpg

Sad what we could've built upon, especially the lines to Rochester and Oxford.

[Dexlin]

Now, that we're talking about interurban lines, how did they interact on the streets where there was also streetcar lines? They weren't exactly the same mode of transportation. Interurbans were more akin to what we'd call "heavier" lightrail, today. You know, fewer stops, faster speeds, more substantial cars. What confuses me is that the street car lines ran down the center lane, and I'm not sure I've seen pictures of how the two interacted or were aligned.

[MikeM]

Gistok,Thanks for this reference. Very surprised to hear they were on Fischer to GPB very close to where we were. Do you know when they removed the tracks? My grandparents came to the neighborhood full time during the war when my mom was born at Cottage. Their helping girl always took the bus on Jefferson back to her home downtown. Must have been in the mid to late 40s they went all busses.

Not sure when they removed the tracks. I think the service ended in 1928.

[Sandhouse]

To answer Dexlin's question, interurbans and streetcars typically shared trackage quite smoothly. The interurbans used the street trackage to reach city centers in most cities.

But not necessarily in Detroit. After city ownership of the DSR, the city charged such high prices for access that the Michigan United often stopped where the DSR began. One of the most remarkable ruins of Detroit is the station that provided cross-platform transfers between the Gratiot Ave. interurbans and the DSR. It was quite an elegant building in 1928, and was last used as a community building for the [[abandoned) trailer park across from City Airport. Its walls are still standing, a monument to the 90-year Detroit tradition of failure to coordinate city and suburban transit.

[Dexlin]

I'd considered that they might have shared trackage, but that seems like an awful lot of traffic unless there were considerable sidings to allow for passing given how busy the streetcar tracks could be in Detroit.

But, you kind of answered my question with the other thing I considered: that the interurban service stopped where the streetcar service took over kind of like the SMART and DDOT interchange up at the fairgrounds, these days, for certain bus routes.

It's really interesting, though, to here that Detroit had cross-platform transfers. Those are pretty rare these days in cities with rail transit. Any pictures of this station on Gratiot?

[Scottathew]

Is this the Gratiot Station? http://goo.gl/maps/qPslm

[DetroitBoy]

Is this the Gratiot Station? http://goo.gl/maps/qPslm

That's what's left of it. The trailer park there is long gone. Here's a pic from one of MikeM's other posts and a pic of the terminal in its heyday:

[EastsideAl]

It's really interesting, though, to here that Detroit had cross-platform transfers. Those are pretty rare these days in cities with rail transit. Any pictures of this station on Gratiot?

Here is an old DYes thread about the Gary Terminal off of Gratiot and Connor, with both recent and historic pictures:
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...urban-Terminal

Here are some more pictures from DertoitFunk:
http://detroitfunk.com/?p=1683

This terminal, and another similar one on Fort St. near the Rouge River, only operated as intended for a few years. Other planned switch-over terminals were never built. The DUR was already in deep financial trouble by the the time these terminals were built in the late 1920s, and would go completely belly-up [[taking the interurbans with it) early in the depression.

As for operation of streetcars and interurbans together, it should be remembered that both systems were operated by the private DUR from 1900 [[the DUR consolidated the suburban lines in 1892, and the city system in 1900) until the city's final takeover of the system inside Detroit in 1922. So it was not a big deal for them to use common trackage, although one of the persistent complaints about interurban service was how slow it became inside the city when it would get backed up with city streetcar traffic.

In fact. after the city takeover, one of the main reasons for the financial instability of the DUR's remaining interurban operations, and a catalyst for the building of the interchange terminals, was the high rental prices imposed on the DUR by the city for the use of tracks that now belonged to the city's DSR.

[EastsideAl]

A couple of photos from 1910 and 1917 showing just how congested the streetcar lines were downtown [[as always, click on the photo to enlarge for much more detail):
http://www.shorpy.com/node/9767
http://www.shorpy.com/node/10755

[Dexlin]

And, quite frankly, this is exactly why the downtown subway that was proposed was needed. There was a real need to seperate more express-like service [[the interurbans) from the more local services [[streetcars). Instead, what we got as a system that was essentially self-sabotaging by not seperating what really should have been two different modes. There was no way for the overall system to work effectively with interurbans and streetcars sharing the same railway, and that's even before you to the added pressure of automobile congestion.

It's really why I'm a bit nervous about M-1 Rail being added to the same lanes that SMART and DDOT currently occupy, with the transit providers saying that all existing bus service will mostly continue as it is with some tweeks, when realistically some of these services should be ending to avoid what will be inevitably congestion slowing down every service if you don't replace a service with another.

Sorry to get so far off topic; just found this interesting.

[animatedmartian]

And, quite frankly, this is exactly why the downtown subway that was proposed was needed. There was a real need to seperate more express-like service [[the interurbans) from the more local services [[streetcars). Instead, what we got as a system that was essentially self-sabotaging by not seperating what really should have been two different modes. There was no way for the overall system to work effectively with interurbans and streetcars sharing the same railway, and that's even before you to the added pressure of automobile congestion.

It's really why I'm a bit nervous about M-1 Rail being added to the same lanes that SMART and DDOT currently occupy, with the transit providers saying that all existing bus service will mostly continue as it is with some tweeks, when realistically some of these services should be ending to avoid what will be inevitably congestion slowing down every service if you don't replace a service with another.

Sorry to get so far off topic; just found this interesting.

With city and population growth, congestion is inevitable and in many cities it becomes obvious to have separated transit modes. However, Detroit never fully crossed that threshold mostly because the decline of the city/inner city began prior to crossing that threshold in addition to the political issues at the time.

M1, DDOT, and SMART face the opposite problem where there's actually a lack of congestion along the shared route. There's no risk to any service being slowed down because of too much of the others. Instead of a slowdown, one of the services just risks having low ridership or not being used at all.

[DetroitBoy]

With city and population growth, congestion is inevitable and in many cities it becomes obvious to have separated transit modes. However, Detroit never fully crossed that threshold mostly because the decline of the city/inner city began prior to crossing that threshold in addition to the political issues at the time.

M1, DDOT, and SMART face the opposite problem where there's actually a lack of congestion along the shared route. There's no risk to any service being slowed down because of too much of the others. Instead of a slowdown, one of the services just risks having low ridership or not being used at all.

We have 138 sq miles to fill up so we should have enough space for awhile. We arent land locked at all like the great cities of the East coast or SF.

[Dexlin]

With city and population growth, congestion is inevitable and in many cities it becomes obvious to have separated transit modes. However, Detroit never fully crossed that threshold mostly because the decline of the city/inner city began prior to crossing that threshold in addition to the political issues at the time.

M1, DDOT, and SMART face the opposite problem where there's actually a lack of congestion along the shared route. There's no risk to any service being slowed down because of too much of the others. Instead of a slowdown, one of the services just risks having low ridership or not being used at all.

This just isn't the case. To believe there won't be signifcant congestian in the outer lanes being used by three different transit services + regular auto traffic on Woodward is just not realistic, particularly when the services will be needed the most during rush periods. This is not even getting into how regional transit planners can't even manage to coordinate the existing SMART [[limited) and DDOT [[local) routes on Woodward in an effective way.

This is going to be a problem, and transit planners are just pretending that this either isn't or will just naturally work its way out. There are no way the local [[DDOT) and hyper-local [[streetcar) won't slow down the SMART routes even more. I get irked by this "empty" city view of Detroit, as if existing transit services aren't already badly coordinated or effecting one another. It's time to start doing this stuff right instead of the "good enough for Detroit" way things are viewed in this city. Get the centr-running BRT commuter route up in running to replace the SMART routes on Woodward, and just replace the existing DDOT bus route on Woodward with an expanded streetcar [[or just have the streetcar turn into center-running LRT at the Boulevard), thereby seperating the local an express services, and call it a day.

[animatedmartian]

This just isn't the case. To believe there won't be signifcant congestian in the outer lanes being used by three different transit services + regular auto traffic on Woodward is just not realistic, particularly when the services will be needed the most during rush periods. This is not even getting into how regional transit planners can't even manage to coordinate the existing SMART [[limited) and DDOT [[local) routes on Woodward in an effective way.

This is going to be a problem, and transit planners are just pretending that this either isn't or will just naturally work its way out. There are no way the local [[DDOT) and hyper-local [[streetcar) won't slow down the SMART routes even more.

I'm sort of confused at whatever problem you're describing. There would have to be significant number of buses and trains for there to be any major congestion and/or there would have to be significant automobile traffic that would make it difficult for buses to changes lanes or there would have to be some reason that the buses couldn't travel down roads parallel to Woodward [[for which there are quite a couple). And right now, I don't think there's enough traffic commuting in and around downtown and midtown for that to be an issue, nor would it be one unless the area population was 10 times more populated.