City airport possibly to start with new commercial airlines company?

[Hypestyles]

a formal, public proposal needs to take place ASAP. Putting it off constantly is irresponsible.

[313WX]

I wonder if the Wayne County Airport Authority would be willing to be more involved?

One thing people haven't mentioned in an expansion is the potential for cargo operations, there is a lot of rail infrastructure nearby that could be attractive for cargo operators or logistics companies

Now that you mention it, I wonder if City Airport will be involved in the possible plans Lear and Penske have to move near I-94 and Mt. Elliot [[given also the plan to expand I-94)...

[ABetterDetroit]

Jeeze guys, the city just got back on its feet weeks ago and now you all are piping up about how they should get in bed with Wayne county [[construction project thieves) and build a new airport with a new 9000 ft runway that couldn't be done without eminent domain and about a billion dollars? How about if they just focus on supplying quality city services for the residents for a while? They could learn how to take care of fire trucks and buses and leave the airport business that has been nothing but a sink hole for cash alone for the time being. If it was worth anything standing on its own, someone would've already been asking to lease or buy it is my thought.

[CLAUDE G]

The expansion has been quietly going on for years. Look at the condition of the neighborhoods between French and van dyke.

For every house that burns down, every family that gets tired of the crime and moves out, and every business that decides to move away, is another property the city or wayne county gets for free.

The only way to expand the airport is to the west to van dyke.

If you expand north, you got Mt Olivet Cemetery and you can't move peoples graves. If you go east across conner, then you got lots of homes where It will cost hundreds of millions of dollars to buy all the home owners out.

If you go south, you got to deal with Gratiot, more homes and yet another cemetery.

West to van Dyke, and possibly moving van dyke is definitely a possibility

[Newdetroit]

Claude: I agree with you. Except, I think that the airport could also be expanded south with Gratiot and I-94 being the southern border.

Also, I remember flying out of city airport in the late 90s to DCA on ProAir on a 737.

[Dexlin]

I'd never even considered reconfiguring the airport so that the runway could be extended south along Gratiot. It'd be quite a bit more difficult than simply going north, as you'd have to practically move the runway to the east right up along Conner, which would then require moving the terminals and hangars to French and Lynch roads on the west borders of the airport. It'd also require taking Gratiot underground, which would be like hell trying to get the state to pay for that or agree to it. But, I guess it's technically possible.

[Hermod]

I'd never even considered reconfiguring the airport so that the runway could be extended south along Gratiot. It'd be quite a bit more difficult than simply going north, as you'd have to practically move the runway to the east right up along Conner, which would then require moving the terminals and hangars to French and Lynch roads on the west borders of the airport. It'd also require taking Gratiot underground, which would be like hell trying to get the state to pay for that or agree to it. But, I guess it's technically possible.

We just put six lane SS-1 [[Federal Highway) underground to expand the south runway for the Fort Lauderdale/Hollywood Airport. Breezy Point Naval Air Station in Norfolk has a runway which a four lane access road runs under.

[Dexlin]

I believe that you missed my point. Of course it's not technically impossible to put Gratiot underground at the location. The point was that the Michigan electorate is very likely to vote down the long-term road funding ballot coming up in a few months. We're going to mostly just be patching roads for quite a few cycles until Michiganders give up on this tea party "no new taxes for anything ever" self-implosion. This theoretical project would not be an inexpensive one. It's possible to see how much federal money we could round up for a project like this. Again, my point wasn't that this is technically impossible, rather this would be politically impossible, particularly with the mood the electorate is in and with the legislature we have. We still got sitting legislators bitching about the Detroit bankruptcy "bailout."

[SpartanDawg]

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...lift/70523064/

here we go again.

[Wesley Mouch]

Wow, that is surprising. I would have thought it would have been around 5,000 ft. not 7,500 ft.

What used to fly out of CAY to Midway, puddle jumpers? Lol.

I'm surprised too.

The flights out of DET were the smallest 737's. If I recall, they were standardizing on a slightly larger jet at the time. CAY & Co. wanted the airline to maintain a small fleet of small 737's just for DET service.

Two factors probably tipped the scales. 1) Reasonable desire to maintain only 1 plane style, 2) Increased availability at Metro airport once City was proven to be viable. Subsidized airports hate competition for public teat. For gosh sakes, you could get to DET on a bus!

[Onthe405]

I'm surprised no one has brought up the point that DTW has built two new terminals with increased gate capacity and Delta acquired Northwest in the many years since SW suspended service out of Detroit City.


The air travel industry has experienced a similar trajectory to retail. In the past decade, logistics technology has advanced to the point that airlines can schedule & manage load factors in such a way that they only fly full planes. With all this competition [[including existing commuter/feeder carriers & routes) at DTW, I can't imagine how any start-up could compete simply by providing a little extra convenience to a limited number of potential passengers on the North & East sides of a [[some would argue) shrinking Metropolitan market.


Even in Metro areas much larger than Detroit, many of the smaller regional airports are in a perpetual state of struggle & competition--despite their proximity to a large potential demographic. Chicago Midway [[with ORD), Ft Laud & West Palm [[with MIA), Oakland [[with SFO) and several others have had many a near-death experience in the past, and most of their current traffic hinges on the the grace of one dominant carrier that could be acquired [[or decide to change their hub) at any given moment.


Newer & large capacity international hubs are not exempt from this reality, either. Cincinnati, Cleveland, & Memphis have all recently been stripped of their former passenger air traffic [[and the associated economic benefit) when Delta and United closed up their hubs.

[softailrider]

I'm surprised no one has brought up the point that DTW has built two new terminals with increased gate capacity and Delta acquired Northwest in the many years since SW suspended service out of Detroit City.


The air travel industry has experienced a similar trajectory to retail. In the past decade, logistics technology has advanced to the point that airlines can schedule & manage load factors in such a way that they only fly full planes. With all this competition [[including existing commuter/feeder carriers & routes) at DTW, I can't imagine how any start-up could compete simply by providing a little extra convenience to a limited number of potential passengers on the North & East sides of a [[some would argue) shrinking Metropolitan market.


Even in Metro areas much larger than Detroit, many of the smaller regional airports are in a perpetual state of struggle & competition--despite their proximity to a large potential demographic. Chicago Midway [[with ORD), Ft Laud & West Palm [[with MIA), Oakland [[with SFO) and several others have had many a near-death experience in the past, and most of their current traffic hinges on the the grace of one dominant carrier that could be acquired [[or decide to change their hub) at any given moment.


Newer & large capacity international hubs are not exempt from this reality, either. Cincinnati, Cleveland, & Memphis have all recently been stripped of their former passenger air traffic [[and the associated economic benefit) when Delta and United closed up their hubs.

Holy Cow! I don't travel much but I do fly in and out of FT Lauderdale / Hollywood a lot. That airport is always jammed. I mean jammed so bad you can hardly move in that place.

[Gpwrangler]

I happen to love jet noise but imagine the lawsuits when you have heavy aircraft glide paths over the East Side and the lake. I'm gettin out the lawn chair and cooler of beer!

[Carcross]

I'm surprised no one has brought up the point that DTW has built two new terminals with increased gate capacity and Delta acquired Northwest in the many years since SW suspended service out of Detroit City.


The air travel industry has experienced a similar trajectory to retail. In the past decade, logistics technology has advanced to the point that airlines can schedule & manage load factors in such a way that they only fly full planes. With all this competition [[including existing commuter/feeder carriers & routes) at DTW, I can't imagine how any start-up could compete simply by providing a little extra convenience to a limited number of potential passengers on the North & East sides of a [[some would argue) shrinking Metropolitan market.


Even in Metro areas much larger than Detroit, many of the smaller regional airports are in a perpetual state of struggle & competition--despite their proximity to a large potential demographic. Chicago Midway [[with ORD), Ft Laud & West Palm [[with MIA), Oakland [[with SFO) and several others have had many a near-death experience in the past, and most of their current traffic hinges on the the grace of one dominant carrier that could be acquired [[or decide to change their hub) at any given moment.


Newer & large capacity international hubs are not exempt from this reality, either. Cincinnati, Cleveland, & Memphis have all recently been stripped of their former passenger air traffic [[and the associated economic benefit) when Delta and United closed up their hubs.

This is a key post. Many in this state do not fully understand the economic benefit of having a large airline hub at DTW, and what it means for businesses. Cities like Cleveland, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and St. Louis that have lost their airline hub in the last 10 years, and are also now losing business as their airports no longer offer the key direct flights that businesses are looking for.

DTW is a great airport, and a strategic asset to this state and region. Leave city airport's use for cargo and executive flights, much like the airports in Troy and Waterford. Commercial aviation should not be something tax dollars are spent subsidizing at city airport.

Instead of wasting money on trying to get commercial flights back to city airport, instead invest that money in ground transportation between Detroit and DTW. Develop good and frequent public transportation between downtown and DTW. Simply put, it doesn't look good when someone has to spend $60 on a cab ride from DTW to downtown because there is no train available. This is where the money truly needs to be spent, and not on some multimillion dollar runway extension that no commercial airline will ever use.

[Wesley Mouch]

This is a key post. Many in this state do not fully understand the economic benefit of having a large airline hub at DTW, and what it means for businesses. Cities like Cleveland, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and St. Louis that have lost their airline hub in the last 10 years, and are also now losing business as their airports no longer offer the key direct flights that businesses are looking for.

DTW is a great airport, and a strategic asset to this state and region. Leave city airport's use for cargo and executive flights, much like the airports in Troy and Waterford. Commercial aviation should not be something tax dollars are spent subsidizing at city airport.

Instead of wasting money on trying to get commercial flights back to city airport, instead invest that money in ground transportation between Detroit and DTW. Develop good and frequent public transportation between downtown and DTW. Simply put, it doesn't look good when someone has to spend $60 on a cab ride from DTW to downtown because there is no train available. This is where the money truly needs to be spent, and not on some multimillion dollar runway extension that no commercial airline will ever use.

Very well put. Public/Rapid transit to DTW will do far more for the City of Detroit. I do think City Airport is a valuable asset to the City as it is. Rezoning and identifying land for some runway improvements for the future is wise -- even if not acted on for 50 years.

[313WX]

The biggest problem with DTW is location.

It's an absolute pain in the ass getting to/from there if you're in the northern suburbs or on the east side, which applies to the vast majority of people in the Detroit area [[never mind downtown). No amount of ground transportation will change this.

In most other cities, the main airport isn't nearly as far out into the boonies as Metro Airport is. And even in the cities that also have their airports way out in the boonies like Metro Airport, it's always supplemented by another [[more convenient) airport [[I.E. Washington Dulles and Washington Reagan).

[Hermod]

The biggest problem with DTW is location.

It's an absolute pain in the ass getting to/from there if you're in the northern suburbs or on the east side, which applies to the vast majority of people in the Detroit area [[never mind downtown). No amount of ground transportation will change this.

In most other cities, the main airport isn't nearly as far out into the boonies as Metro Airport is. And even in the cities that also have their airports way out in the boonies like Metro Airport, it's always supplemented by another [[more convenient) airport [[I.E. Washington Dulles and Washington Reagan).

You should have made the drive [[pre-interstates) when half the airlines serving Detroit used Willow Run.

[casscorridor]

The biggest problem with DTW is location.

It's an absolute pain in the ass getting to/from there if you're in the northern suburbs or on the east side, which applies to the vast majority of people in the Detroit area [[never mind downtown). No amount of ground transportation will change this.

In most other cities, the main airport isn't nearly as far out into the boonies as Metro Airport is. And even in the cities that also have their airports way out in the boonies like Metro Airport, it's always supplemented by another [[more convenient) airport [[I.E. Washington Dulles and Washington Reagan).

Use a distance tool in a map application, and you will see many Global cities have airports just as far from the center of the city as Detroit. However, most of them have rapid transit connecting them to the center.

[313WX]

Use a distance tool in a map application, and you will see many Global cities have airports just as far from the center of the city as Detroit. However, most of them have rapid transit connecting them to the center.

These global cities you mention also have 1 or 2 other major airports that are either much closer to the center of the city or in a location that's far more convenient for folks to access.

[Carcross]

The biggest problem with DTW is location.

It's an absolute pain in the ass getting to/from there if you're in the northern suburbs or on the east side, which applies to the vast majority of people in the Detroit area [[never mind downtown). No amount of ground transportation will change this.

In most other cities, the main airport isn't nearly as far out into the boonies as Metro Airport is. And even in the cities that also have their airports way out in the boonies like Metro Airport, it's always supplemented by another [[more convenient) airport [[I.E. Washington Dulles and Washington Reagan).

Typically cities with multiple commercial airports are either in metro areas that are larger in size than Detroit [[i.e. DC, Bay Area, Chicago, etc), or are in high tourist areas that draw more passenger demand than here[[Orlando, Phoenix, etc). There really isn't a need for multiple commercial airports here.

[313WX]

Typically cities with multiple commercial airports are either in metro areas that are larger in size than Detroit [[i.e. DC, Bay Area, Chicago, etc), or are in high tourist areas that draw more passenger demand than here[[Orlando, Phoenix, etc). There really isn't a need for multiple commercial airports here.

Convenience is still a major factor for folks when considering places to do business/visit. No one wants to have to take another 30-45 minute car/train/bus ride to/from their destination before/after sitting on a several hour long flight, if they have the choice.

Using the DC example I provided before, despite the rapid transit they have to/from Dulles Airport, most people strongly prefer flying in and out of Reagan National simply because it's only 5-10 minutes from the center of DC.

[animatedmartian]

Most busy airports are in the boonies precisely because it's pretty miserable living next to one. Having an airport closer to the city is not necessarily a benefit.

[MrNittany]

I think there is definitely a market for a charter air shuttle that flew weekday [[leave Detroit at 7 AM, return to Detroit at 7 PM) flights between DET and Chicago [[Midway) and New York [[Teterboro, NJ). Perhaps also flights to other cities like Nashville where there is a notable business link.

We have a charter flight company in Cincinnati --- Ultimate Air Shuttle --- that utilizes Cincinnati's "second" airport [[Lunken Field) and has exactly this business model. They use 40-seat Dornier Jets and they are doing well. Their prices are fairly high, but what they really sell is "no TSA security to clear", "arrive at the airport 10 minutes before and get on the plane", "free food and drink on the flight" and "easy business day trips to Chicago and New York." It is fairly popular with the business travel community.

Anyway, I mention them because they also used to run charters between YIP and Columbus, Indiana. Evidently there was once a need with Cummins, which designs engines and power generation products, being HQd down in Columbus. Those flights don't run those anymore, there must not be a need any longer [[that's a rather specialized route, no doubt), but they at least do have some experience with the SE Michigan market.

Big picture, I do think a charter company running 1-2 flights per day to the big business cities can succeed flying out of DET. They'd need a big marketing push to increase consumer awareness, but [[a) significantly less time needed if one doesn't even need to clear security, and [[b) DET being closer to downtown vs. DTW are reasons this could work.

[MrNittany]

This is a key post. Many in this state do not fully understand the economic benefit of having a large airline hub at DTW, and what it means for businesses. Cities like Cleveland, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and St. Louis that have lost their airline hub in the last 10 years, and are also now losing business as their airports no longer offer the key direct flights that businesses are looking for.

DTW is a great airport, and a strategic asset to this state and region. Leave city airport's use for cargo and executive flights, much like the airports in Troy and Waterford. Commercial aviation should not be something tax dollars are spent subsidizing at city airport.

Instead of wasting money on trying to get commercial flights back to city airport, instead invest that money in ground transportation between Detroit and DTW. Develop good and frequent public transportation between downtown and DTW. Simply put, it doesn't look good when someone has to spend $60 on a cab ride from DTW to downtown because there is no train available. This is where the money truly needs to be spent, and not on some multimillion dollar runway extension that no commercial airline will ever use.

Good post. The Detroit region has a real gem in DTW and it's awesome for the local business community. On the "other" side of the Delta/Northwest merger, CVG and the Cincinnati business community have struggled for years with Delta continually scaling-back flights. I get it, there's no need for an airline to have a hub when they have two of them, both in much-larger cities, within 400 miles. When Chiquita relocated from Cincinnati a few years back, they made a point of listing the airport and the lack of international flights as a reason for their move to Charlotte.

DET is fine --- good for general aviation, and there's likely a market for a few [[keyword: few) weekday charter regional jets to Chicago and/or NYC. That's it though. A "traditional" commercial carrier like Southwest or Allegiant, there is simply no role for them at DET. Absolutely focus on public transit to DTW.

[Cliffy]

These global cities you mention also have 1 or 2 other major airports that are either much closer to the center of the city or in a location that's far more convenient for folks to access.

Thats not true. Most airports are 20 miles or more from the city center.