What is going on at Red Wings arena site?

[gumby]

this actually really bothers me... whyyyy do they have to do that??? it honestly hurts the walkability of the area to take away a 4-way intersection like that.... putting a building there is phenomenal and i'm very happy about that but come onnnnn that's so unnecessary

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. The original "plans" when they announced the Red Wings arena showed two buildings connected by a skybridge over the street. They may not close the street.

[CrashDummy]

this actually really bothers me... whyyyy do they have to do that??? it honestly hurts the walkability of the area to take away a 4-way intersection like that.... putting a building there is phenomenal and i'm very happy about that but come onnnnn that's so unnecessary

I think it means that it would be closed to traffic, which it really doesn't have much of nowadays anyway.

[emu steve]

BTW, I remember what maybe 12 years ago.

St. Johns' on their signage had: "Please pray for our Tigers." [[didn't have smart phones back then nor a camera with me. Damn).

[mikeg19]

It'd be cool if a livecam was setup that chronicled the construction project through its entirety.

[emu steve]

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/spo...ment/70957924/


"The Horizon League men's basketball tournament will be at Joe Louis Arena for two years starting in 2016 and will then move to the new Detroit Events Center, under an agreement announced Thursday between the league and Olympia Entertainment."

I believe the NCAA has announced 2018 first round of 64/32 will be at the new arena.

[emu steve]

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...l#incart_river

[Dbest]

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...ents/27576211/

This story continues to intrigue me. What exactly is Duggan up to? Any way you slice it its starting to smell like old Detroit. It's pathetic, the residents are kicking in the majority of this mega project and the Mayor is still bending over for Olympia. Put the god damn hotel out for bid and see what happens. With all this money being spent by the city it's the least Illitch could do. \

Of course nobody was going to develop either of those hotels until the CITY approved the stadium and was willing to spend buckoo bucks to fix up the area. If the city was spending half the money to fix up the area and strictly create new neighborhoods[[no stadium), those hotels would have been sold FAST.

I'm willing to bet a developer would love to rehab the Park next to the new arena, Olympia just isn't having it... It's not about whats good for the city, just whats good for Olympia.

A bunch of eggs in "mother hen" Olympia's basket..

[Dbest]

"A city council memo circulated today pointed out possible violations of the Michigan Local Historic District Act after Motor City Muckraker revealed last week that Duggan was trying to replace preservationists with people who would approve razing the Hotel Park Avenue."

http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2015/0...-appointments/


What a shame, it seemed like The Mayor and council were on the same page up until this Olympia debacle. Underhanded tactics will only create animosity amongst the ranks of city council... This could get messy. Stay tuned..

For the record, I would like to see the 2 hotels stay and the arena project completed. The total lack of vision regarding keeping both Hotels makes me really skeptical of the overall project. Until I read that Olympia has offered up the Park building for redevelopment with no takers, will I ever believe there is no interest.

[emu steve]

"A city council memo circulated today pointed out possible violations of the Michigan Local Historic District Act after Motor City Muckraker revealed last week that Duggan was trying to replace preservationists with people who would approve razing the Hotel Park Avenue."

http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2015/0...-appointments/


What a shame, it seemed like The Mayor and council were on the same page up until this Olympia debacle. Underhanded tactics will only create animosity amongst the ranks of city council... This could get messy. Stay tuned..

For the record, I would like to see the 2 hotels stay and the arena project completed. The total lack of vision regarding keeping both Hotels makes me really skeptical of the overall project. Until I read that Olympia has offered up the Park building for redevelopment with no takers, will I ever believe there is no interest.

I think this is like the end of WWII. Apparently some out in the islands didn't know the war ended.

This war is over but the posts [[here) and skirmishes on the ground continue... Perhaps using the Yogism: "It's not over until its over..."

It should be pretty clear that the mayor [[and a lot of big moneyed developers like Gilbert) wants this done...

Folks are stepping up to the plate now that the excavating has begun [[that includes Gilbert in Brush Park - I doubt he'd do it IF the arena wasn't a near certainty to get the necessary approvals. Interesting the Bedrock presser was what a few days or a week or whatever after the council approved the rezoning for the arena).

[Shai_Hulud]

I think this is like the end of WWII. Apparently some out in the islands didn't know the war ended.

I agree, it's sad but Park Avenue was dead awhile ago.

[emu steve]

I agree, it's sad but Park Avenue was dead awhile ago.

I understand the frustrations of many but we need to keep focus on the very impressive redevelopment in the CBD, the arena plans, M-1 rail, what is starting to happen in Brush Park, what could be next at Henry Ford Hospital area, etc.

I just don't see the value of letting the frustration of one building ruin the joy of what has been, is, and will happen along Woodward...

Some glasses are half empty; other are half full.

[gvidas]

I think the machinations, as reported by Muckraker, reflect pretty poorly on the Duggan administration.

Park Ave hotel may be toast. But I'd really like to see that assessment made by a qualified party who hasn't already decided to remove it. i.e. not just some anonymous armchair building inspectors on the internet, and not someone being paid by the city or Olympia.

The premise of a historic designation is that the building has unique intrinsic value, which the public at large benefits from. Because of this, we've established a few minor hurdles that developers have to jump over. Removing the hurdles because the developer asked for them to be removed them defeats the whole purpose. There is a clear process for them to go about demolishing the hotel: they have to prove that "it is a deterrent to a major improvement program that will be of substantial benefit to the community."

If Olympia absolutely could not construct the arena without demolishing the Park Ave hotel, they wouldn't have started work, or would have stopped by now. So framing the question as "don't let this one ugly building stop the arena development and all the momentum we're getting" is, in my opinion, a misdirection.

As far as I can tell it's just a profit question at this point: Olympia, who stands to make more money with the hotel gone, vs. the city at large, who risks having the process of protecting historic buildings undermined.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I agree, it's sad but Park Avenue was dead awhile ago.

Is it any more dead than the Strathmore, for example, that's well on its path to restoration?

[Shai_Hulud]

Is it any more dead than the Strathmore, for example, that's well on its path to restoration?

Yes, because the Park Avenue is owned by Mike Illitch and the Strathmore isn't.

[emu steve]

This may seem O/T to this thread, although I doubt it.

Communities, e.g., Oakland, San Diego, and St. Louis were very slow to wise up about the possibility of losing their football teams because of stadium issues and now facing the very real prospects of their teams moving to L.A.

For those not familiar with the stadia in Oakland and San Diego, well historic preservationists wouldn't want to save them [[just like folks in D.C. can't wait to tear down RFK as soon as a new soccer stadium is built). Oakland and San Diego built stadia for their AFL teams in the early sixties and are decrepit. I assume the Oakland stadium is also the worst in MLB.

NOW they are offering stadiums with significant public financing but the 'horse is out of the barn'.

I feel for the fans in those cities facing their loss after over 50 years [[Oakland joined the AFL in 1960 and the Chargers moved from L.A. to S.D. I believe in 1961).

No one would expect the Wings to leave S.E. Michigan, but leaving the city of Detroit or the city leaders' prime desired location would have been a huge hit for the city.

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nf...enke/27740853/

[Dbest]

Heres an old picture of The Edystone...

[Gistok]

I've been wondering about that question too Dbest....

FYI although the buildings do look like bookends... the Park Ave is actually the larger of the two... originally the Eddystone had 150 or so hotel rooms, the Park Ave. had 250 rooms, so it is the bigger of the two.

As I stated early on in this thread... there will be a "Battle Royale" before this is all through.... and I've been right so far.

Here's a reality check.... anyone here remember the Columbia Street Entertainment project [[while Comerica Park was being built) that was going to be anchored by a Hard Rock Cafe on the corner of Woodward/Columbia?

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Hard+R......-a018941046

I just think that after the arena goes up... that the follow-thru with other developments nearby will go the same way as that announced but never developed plans for Columbia St.

Even the Madison Lenox fiasco..... the Ilitch's promised to build something in it's place within 5 years... or would repay the 700K demolition fund... we all know where that went.

And then there's the GAR Building.... just what stopped the Ilitch's from following thru with the option they had on it for at least a year or two?

And then there's the Life Building over on Park Ave.... anyone else remember the Ilitch announcement about them fixing that place up.... still nothing.

And then there's the Fine Arts Facade? How long are the newly refurbished Broderick Tower and Whitney Building going to have to face that metal framework... nothing has yet been announced for it... [[and some people had the nerve to call Michael Higgins a slumlord!!)

And then there's the United Artists Building/Theatre.... still just sitting there.... mouldering away.... although luckily with a new roof.

And then there's the Blenheim Apartments and Royal Order of the Moose Buildings... do I need to keep going?

I'm not getting my hopes up about anything the Ilitch's say they want to do.... until it get's done....

Skipper's Rule.... to the max....

[emu steve]

Gistok, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge and scholarship but I really wonder about this statement: "As I stated early on in this thread... there will be a "Battle Royale" before this is all through.... and I've been right so far."

To me, it is more of a Congressional-like song and dance then anything else. With Duggan trying to keep this arena project on track, I don't think the outcome is in doubt.

[Dbest]

Gistok, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge and scholarship but I really wonder about this statement: "As I stated early on in this thread... there will be a "Battle Royale" before this is all through.... and I've been right so far."

To me, it is more of a Congressional-like song and dance then anything else. With Duggan trying to keep this arena project on track, I don't think the outcome is in doubt.

What outcome are you referring to? Because the stadium project IS NOT IN DOUBT. I think the "Battle Royale" Gistok is eluding to is regarding the possible demolition of this building.

That's a pretty heavy list of indictments that Gistok posted. He didn't even mention Tiger Stadium. The money illitch got from the $1.00 rake on every ticket in the final season at The Corner, that was to be set aside for future maintenance. We all know how that went.

[emu steve]

[QUOTE=Dbest;479593]What outcome are you referring to? Because the stadium project IS NOT IN DOUBT. I think the "Battle Royale" Gistok is eluding to is regarding the possible demolition of this building. ... QUOTE]

Correct. We are referring to the same thing. Saving that one building is a 'song and dance'. I don't think the outcome is in doubt. It is simply the machinations that the city will [[have to) go through to get to its desired end result.

Ever watch a Rand Paul filibuster?

Instead of a 'Battle Royale' maybe more like Holyfield vs. Romney 'fight' which was fun a little exhibition to watch, kind of a pillow fight.

[Dbest]

[QUOTE=emu steve;479597]

What outcome are you referring to? Because the stadium project IS NOT IN DOUBT. I think the "Battle Royale" Gistok is eluding to is regarding the possible demolition of this building. ... QUOTE]

Correct. We are referring to the same thing. Saving that one building is a 'song and dance'. I don't think the outcome is in doubt. It is simply the machinations that the city will [[have to) go through to get to its desired end result.

Ever watch a Rand Paul filibuster?

Instead of a 'Battle Royale' maybe more like Holyfield vs. Romney 'fight' which was fun a little exhibition to watch, kind of a pillow fight.

The only song and dance is the "billionaire shuffle", you know that one, Illitch shuffles public money while promising much,only to boogie out after the stadium and parking garages are done.

You don't make any argument as to why it should be razed, just make excuses for a billionaire who doesn't want to be 'burdened' with fixing up the building.

On this particular website you are going to have people that want preservation of historic buildings above all else, its why they are here. It's why I visit Detroit as much as I do. Without the old buildings and good people, there wouldn't be much appeal for me. There are also people on the opposite end of the spectrum, cruise in to the stadium for the game and leave town afterward. This is why I feel it should be saved, expose people who just come in for games to Detroit's sweet architecture and make people like me anxious to get down there and enjoy it too.

I don't think you truly understand the magnitude of Detroit's old buildings and their place in the whole rebuilding process of the city. Ive stayed at the Book Cadillac twice and recently the The Crown[[former Pontch). I will be staying in the old fire house when its done. If the Park is returned to a hotel its instantly on my bucket list. I'm ashamed to say I've yet to stay at the Fort Shelby. In due time...

I very rarely hear visitors to the city focus on the sports stadiums when highlighting their trips to the city. Do they play a role? Of course they do. Does Detroit have great sports facilities? It better, it's one of Americas top sports cities.

It's about a balance, one that Illitch doesn't understand as evidenced by the above list from Gistok. Tiger Stadium was the best of both worlds, old architecture and Detroits most storied sports grounds, what did Illitch do? Shit on it... Wash, rinse, repeat....

I love your enthusiasm emusteve, you have kept this thread alive. I hope you don't take my post as condescending. I appreciated your reply.

I do have to ask you though:

If you were Olympia, would you look into the feasibilty of rehabbing the Park hotel or selling it to a developer?

[emu steve]

Thanks, but you are, I think, misinterpreting my posting:

You are missing my point. It isn't about the past but the existential 'here and now', namely, what are the expected proceedings of the historic preservation effort for that building.

What will the outcome of this effort be:

I'm predicting that it is a song and dance where the outcome is all but certain. I'll give my reasons why: All of the heavy hitters, e.g., Ilitches, Council [[more or less), Duggan, etc. are in the same corner.

I can speak about Tiger Stadium. A relic [[and that isn't a compliment), wrong location, etc. No one would build a stadium at Trumbull and Michigan today. [[that said, many of the seats were great, but not those upper deck bleachers in CF, what 440 feet from home plate).

I don't know what to do with a retired athletic stadium, e.g., Tiger stadium, the dome in Pontiac, Cobo Arena, "The Joe", etc. Re-purposing an athletic stadium or arena isn't easy.

I'm actually pretty agnostic on the Park Hotel.

If the two buildings can and should be saved, fine. I have no problem with that.

If it seriously interferes with the 'grand plan' for the arena and it has go, so be it.

The big thing is that the 'master plan' not be compromised too much. I hate development where a land owner won't sell and forces the builder to do a crazy workaround because he had to, at the detriment of the project.

[Dbest]

Thanks, but you are, I think, misinterpreting my posting:

You are missing my point. It isn't about the past but the existential 'here and now', namely, what are the expected proceedings of the historic preservation effort for that building.

What will the outcome of this effort be:

I'm predicting that it is a song and dance where the outcome is all but certain. I'll give my reasons why: All of the heavy hitters, e.g., Ilitches, Council [[more or less), Duggan, etc. are in the same corner.

I can speak about Tiger Stadium. A relic [[and that isn't a compliment), wrong location, etc. No one would build a stadium at Trumbull and Michigan today. [[that said, many of the seats were great, but not those upper deck bleachers in CF, what 440 feet from home plate).

I don't know what to do with a retired athletic stadium, e.g., Tiger stadium, the dome in Pontiac, Cobo Arena, "The Joe", etc. Re-purposing an athletic stadium or arena isn't easy.

I'm actually pretty agnostic on the Park Hotel.

If the two buildings can and should be saved, fine. I have no problem with that.

If it seriously interferes with the 'grand plan' for the arena and it has go, so be it.

The big thing is that the 'master plan' not be compromised too much. I hate development where a land owner won't sell and forces the builder to do a crazy workaround because he had to, at the detriment of the project.

Tiger Stadium was about the interior, not the exterior. If center field had shortcomings then the right field overhang more than made up for that. As a whole, those outfield seats were some of the closest in Modern Day baseball. Did people below have to deal with obstructed views? Too bad back in those days. The center field seats were far, but they were also cheap. These seats gave lower income families a chance to see Mr. Tigers too. Kind of like the skyline seats of today, great view on those too...

The cast-iron flag pole [[still standing) from Tiger Stadium is more fascinating than anything within the "cookie cutter" walls of Copa. Why couldn't Illitch of renovated Tiger stadium? You know, like Fenway? I understand for many this was out of their realm possibilities, the stadium was "ugly" or the "location" wasn't right.

You didn't see the Red Sox clamoring to tear down Fenway or the Cubs to tear down Wrigley, instead they added the needed money making amenities[[luxury suites/concessions/memorabilia shop) and have retained much of their city/team history in the process. Even Ford incorporated the Hudson warehouse into their design of FF, they saw the value in integrating old and new.

Maybe the allure of new development has soured people on some of the old buildings trying to find their place once again., as emusteve says:

"If it seriously interferes with the 'grand plan' for the arena and it has go, so be it."

I think this view is shared by many unfortunately, that the city and its hopes rest on this arena/mega project. Like Illitch would ever walk away from this sweetheart deal, any public belief that he would plays right into his hands.

Another thing to keep in my mind, hotels are very unique businesses. It's much more intimate than going to a restaurant, or sporting event. You sleep there,possibly eat, maybe swim, and at some point relax for a bit. I'd love to relax in front of my hotel room window watching activity around the stadium, from a birds eye view no less. It's a major factor in changing peoples perception of whats going.

The city has some great bones, when brought back they are shining examples for anyone to see or never know they were gone.

Its really not a blank canvas in Detroit, much of what still remains is valued and plays a role. Minus a return to the demolition at all costs mantra.

[emu steve]

"On this particular website you are going to have people that want preservation of historic buildings above all else, its why they are here. It's why I visit Detroit as much as I do. Without the old buildings and good people, there wouldn't be much appeal for me."

Actually, I like a lot of historic buildings. I'm not anti-historic preservation. I consider each one separately. I'm not a 100% either way. Lot of building are downright ugly and should be torn down. FBI building [[brutalist style) in D.C. will get no tears from me when it is eventually torn down.

I just read the story of St. Patrick's church in Midtown closing as a parish and thought it looked really nice. I really hope that Midtown comes back and the church can be reopened as a parish church.

More than once, when I'm in town, I've gone to Old St. Marys.

[canuck]

I just read the story of St. Patrick's church in Midtown closing as a parish and thought it looked really nice. I really hope that Midtown comes back and the church can be reopened as a parish church.

More than once, when I'm in town, I've gone to Old St. Marys.

I like the old StAloysius church downtown too. I like when you have that integration in the streetwall of a variety of architecture which spells "Big City". Detroit needs to preserve all of the Golden Age bldgs not just as a rule but as a "necessity". Everytime a building hits the ground in rubble and dust, the memory of a great city suffers.

By all means, get rid of the parking lots one by one, no tears lost; keep them lacrymal glands useful for something worth it.