What is going on at Red Wings arena site?

[Mackinaw]

SHAME on Tom Walsh for that column, under the headline 'Is Council Going Back to Its Old Ways?' Unbelievable-- for anyone who has been paying attention, the Council is finally acting in a professional, not-haphazard way and finally showing due regard for such city-building ideas as preservation, not to mention at least a measure of skepticism towards Olympia's promises. They should be lauded, not scorned. Now, thanks to Walsh, a whole bunch of uninformed folks across the metro are going to be misguided as to the quality of Council's efforts here. F' him.

[mikeg19]

SHAME on Tom Walsh for that column, under the headline 'Is Council Going Back to Its Old Ways?' Unbelievable-- for anyone who has been paying attention, the Council is finally acting in a professional, not-haphazard way and finally showing due regard for such city-building ideas as preservation, not to mention at least a measure of skepticism towards Olympia's promises. They should be lauded, not scorned. Now, thanks to Walsh, a whole bunch of uninformed folks across the metro are going to be misguided as to the quality of Council's efforts here. F' him.

^
This, right here, spot on.

Council is actually acting the way it should.

[emu steve]

Actually, I believe the Council and the Ilitch come up with the best agreement possible by some 'drop dead' date.

If it is a full contract, MoU [[Memorandum of Understanding), etc. or whatever, at the time of the deadline, fine.

And I really, really disagree with this approach: "He's not going anywhere because of some delayed red tape."

That is not a business-friendly approach [[and yes, Ilitch is a business man. Does matter if he is selling pizzas or entertainment).

I don't think Detroit can play hardball with any developers, regardless of the public contributions, tax write offs, etc.

P.S. were we posting on Brush Park three years ago? The momentum is building. Do not cause unnecessary drama.

[animatedmartian]

Actually, I believe the Council and the Ilitch come up with the best agreement possible by some 'drop dead' date.

If it is a full contract, MoU [[Memorandum of Understanding), etc. or whatever, at the time of the deadline, fine.

And I really, really disagree with this approach: "He's not going anywhere because of some delayed red tape."

That is not a business-friendly approach [[and yes, Ilitch is a business man. Does matter if he is selling pizzas or entertainment).

I don't think Detroit can play hardball with any developers, regardless of the public contributions, tax write offs, etc.

P.S. were we posting on Brush Park three years ago? The momentum is building. Do not cause unnecessary drama.

Ilitch can't up and move the arena to the suburbs just because of the city. Especially when he claims to be so committed to the city and dirt is already being moved around. The worst Ilitch can do if the city plays hardball is maybe hire only 40% Detroit workers instead of 50% or whatever. Everything else is pretty much in his favor.

[Buttons]

Ilitch can't up and move the arena to the suburbs just because of the city. Especially when he claims to be so committed to the city and dirt is already being moved around. The worst Ilitch can do if the city plays hardball is maybe hire only 40% Detroit workers instead of 50% or whatever. Everything else is pretty much in his favor.

Illitch can up and move the team to the Palace. It can't be any worse than Joe Louis. I can't believe one building is going to hold this project up. Nobody else is going to develop that building any time soon.

[Dan_the_man]

Illitch can up and move the team to the Palace. It can't be any worse than Joe Louis. I can't believe one building is going to hold this project up. Nobody else is going to develop that building any time soon.

If Illitch was willing to sell, I bet it would get redeveloped, even if the arena weren't going to be there. It's close enough to downtown and Midtown that development would reach there in a few years anyways. There aren't many big buildings left. This one would get fixed.

[emu steve]

If Illitch was willing to sell, I bet it would get redeveloped, even if the arena weren't going to be there. It's close enough to downtown and Midtown that development would reach there in a few years anyways. There aren't many big buildings left. This one would get fixed.

Wow, do I disagree with you.

The old sports-facilities-doesn't-cause-development [[i.e., they'd happen anyways, but would any of us still be alive????).

That area was dead, dead, dead.

East of Woodward was dead, dead, dead.

All of a sudden west of Woodward is alive and folks fighting over what will or will not go where.

And all of a sudden EAST of Woodward is alive and I read plans for multiple nice housing projects, maybe a hotel [[across from FF), renovated Brewster Wheeler, etc.

Where was all of this THREE years ago? Why now? Why not then?

Might it not just be the new arena and M-1 which has defined the area [[the arena helps define the 'entertainment' [[and commercial) part of the area West of Woodward, and East of Woodward seems to be defined as a coming residential area.

[Buttons]

If Illitch was willing to sell, I bet it would get redeveloped, even if the arena weren't going to be there. It's close enough to downtown and Midtown that development would reach there in a few years anyways. There aren't many big buildings left. This one would get fixed.

The Park Avenue hotel is isolated and disconnected from Midtown and Downtown. If the arena project goes as planned, it seems like a great way to bridge the gap between the two neighborhoods. On its own, I just don't see anyone wanting to renovate the Park in such a desolate area. I do think Illitch has leverage because the Palace is a fine building. I'm sure he would also win in the court of public opinion and can make it look like council forced him out of Detroit. For the record, I agree with council in making sure there are guarantees. I don't think he should be forced to renovate both the Eddystone and Park.

[erikd]

Actually, I believe the Council and the Ilitch come up with the best agreement possible by some 'drop dead' date.

If it is a full contract, MoU [[Memorandum of Understanding), etc. or whatever, at the time of the deadline, fine.

And I really, really disagree with this approach: "He's not going anywhere because of some delayed red tape."

That is not a business-friendly approach [[and yes, Ilitch is a business man. Does matter if he is selling pizzas or entertainment).

I don't think Detroit can play hardball with any developers, regardless of the public contributions, tax write offs, etc.

P.S. were we posting on Brush Park three years ago? The momentum is building. Do not cause unnecessary drama.

This assertion is completely ridiculous and nonsensical.

Ilitch is being given hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to build his new hockey arena, largely based on his vague promises to develop the land around the new arena. He has everybody excited about his promises and proposals, but refuses to commit to any of his promises in writing.

We have seen Ilitch play this game of promising spin-off development numerous times over the last few decades, and he NEVER fulfills his promises, no matter how many millions we blindly hand to him in the hopes that he will honor his word.

Getting swindled by a billionaire is not a "business-friendly approach." Requiring a billionaire welfare recipient to sign a contract in exchange for hundreds of millions of tax dollars is not "playing hardball." It should be a red flag when Ilitch doesn't want to sign a contract that commits him to fulfill his grand public promises in exchange for a quarter billion in taxpayer welfare.

I don't want to see the Red Wings leave Detroit, but if Ilitch isn't willing to sign a contract to commit to just a few of his grand promises, in exchange for hundreds of millions in taxpayer welfare, it seems pretty clear that he doesn't intend to follow through.

If we need to give away hundreds of millions to a billionaire in order to keep our hockey team in Detroit, maybe it isn't worth it. The lower Cass Corridor will be very attractive to developers, with or without a new hockey arena. The Ilitch parking lot wasteland behind the Fox Theater is notable for its lack of investment while the rest of downtown has been booming.

The economic studies of public investment in pro sports stadia are widely in agreement that they are a bad investment and poor use of tax dollars. If the city council request for Ilitch to sign a contract committing to his promises is a deal breaker, we are better off by it not happening.

If Ilitch isn't willing to stand by his word and honor his promises, he can go fuck off to Oakland County, or Oakland California, and swindle their taxpayers.

[warsaw7]

If Ilitch isn't willing to stand by his word and honor his promises, he can go fuck off to Oakland County, or Oakland California, and swindle their taxpayers.

You made my day!

[emu steve]

This assertion is completely ridiculous and nonsensical.

Ilitch is being given hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to build his new hockey arena, largely based on his vague promises to develop the land around the new arena. He has everybody excited about his promises and proposals, but refuses to commit to any of his promises in writing.

We have seen Ilitch play this game of promising spin-off development numerous times over the last few decades, and he NEVER fulfills his promises, no matter how many millions we blindly hand to him in the hopes that he will honor his word.

Getting swindled by a billionaire is not a "business-friendly approach." Requiring a billionaire welfare recipient to sign a contract in exchange for hundreds of millions of tax dollars is not "playing hardball." It should be a red flag when Ilitch doesn't want to sign a contract that commits him to fulfill his grand public promises in exchange for a quarter billion in taxpayer welfare.

I don't want to see the Red Wings leave Detroit, but if Ilitch isn't willing to sign a contract to commit to just a few of his grand promises, in exchange for hundreds of millions in taxpayer welfare, it seems pretty clear that he doesn't intend to follow through.

If we need to give away hundreds of millions to a billionaire in order to keep our hockey team in Detroit, maybe it isn't worth it. The lower Cass Corridor will be very attractive to developers, with or without a new hockey arena. The Ilitch parking lot wasteland behind the Fox Theater is notable for its lack of investment while the rest of downtown has been booming.

The economic studies of public investment in pro sports stadia are widely in agreement that they are a bad investment and poor use of tax dollars. If the city council request for Ilitch to sign a contract committing to his promises is a deal breaker, we are better off by it not happening.

If Ilitch isn't willing to stand by his word and honor his promises, he can go fuck off to Oakland County, or Oakland California, and swindle their taxpayers.

I think many of your assertions are way, way off.

Are you suggesting that the Ilitches AREN'T going through zoning, permitting, etc. etc. for the arena and the other buildings, e.g., parking deck, team buildings, residential buildings on the arena site? OR are you talking about ONE building [[an abandoned hotel)?

If this project [[the two shuttered hotels) could be compared to a dog or a horse, some are talking about the tail, the least important part of the animal.

************

As far as the what the community gets back from their $ for sports facilities.

Once again, it is the aggregate which is reported in these studies. Some projects have big payoffs. Some made no sense [[e.g., FedEx Field in suburban D.C.) and quite frankly one could see it from day one. Many of these were dumped into suburbia to get them out of the city and there was NOT any plan to use them as a catalyst for urban development. They were DESIGNED [[stupidly) as a place where suburbanites drove to, parked, watched and drove home. Man, I can remember the arena built in early 70s in Richfield, Ohio [[think it was 25 miles from Cleveland and near NOTHING).

If that is what you want, then one should not expect anything greater.

This project seems to have as great a payoff as any sports facility I've seen with the exemption of Nationals Park and Verizon Center, both in D.C., where a sports facility attracts development money. I watched as the Nationals Park was approved by the D.C. council how bidding contests developed for real estate from the stadium site to the SE Expressway.

Surprisingly, if one gets off this forum and into the 'real world' [[this forum is NOT a true representation of the Metro Detroit area. It is a very skewed 'sample', heavily weighted toward certain interests, e.g., historic preservation.), one will find very, very different opinions.

Just talk to the business and political leaders. As best I can tell, this arena has the wholehearted support of the most influential business leaders and politicians [[e.g., the mayor, the governor, etc.).

Does anyone here doubt the wisdom of Dan Gilbert? Would anyone say "I'm right and Dan is wrong. He doesn't know anything about sports facilities and real estate development"?

[ghettopalmetto]

As far as the what the community gets back from their $ for sports facilities.

Many of these were dumped into suburbia to get them out of the city and there was NOT any plan to use them as a catalyst for urban development. They were DESIGNED [[stupidly) as a place where suburbanites drove to, parked, watched and drove home. Man, I can remember the arena built in early 70s in Richfield, Ohio [[think it was 25 miles from Cleveland and near NOTHING).

If that is what you want, then one should not expect anything greater.

And you expect that Ilitch's new ice palace *will* somehow be greater? There's nothing to indicate that it will be little more than "a place where suburbanites drive to, park, watch, and drive home".

Since you mentioned Cleveland, it's worth noting that the blocks surrounding Quicken Loans Arena are some of the quietest in all of downtown, save for the hours before and after a game. Sure, there's a new high-rise that will be constructed across the street, but the 21-year-old arena was not the cause of that. There are many livelier parts of downtown Cleveland that don't have any sporting arenas, and didn't cost nearly as much in taxpayer dollars.

[Scottathew]

Does anyone here doubt the wisdom of Dan Gilbert? Would anyone say "I'm right and Dan is wrong. He doesn't know anything about sports facilities and real estate development"?

Dan speaks via action.

Ilitch speaks via promises. Simply put, we don't trust him. He says he's going to do something, we ask him to put it into writing, and he refuses.

[emu steve]

Dan speaks via action.

Ilitch speaks via promises. Simply put, we don't trust him. He says he's going to do something, we ask him to put it into writing, and he refuses.

Once again, folks here are arguing of the tail [[those two abandoned hotels), not the dog.

Does anyone think Ilitch will not build the arena? parking deck? The ancillary building e.g., team shop and offices, a few smallish residential buildings, etc.

To folks on this forum, touching that abandoned hotel[[s) may be a sin against God and nature, but it is small potatoes in the very, very large project.

[mickeyg]

Surprisingly, if one gets off this forum and into the 'real world' [[this forum is NOT a true representation of the Metro Detroit area. It is a very skewed 'sample', heavily weighted toward certain interests, e.g., historic preservation.), one will find very, very different opinions.

Just talk to the business and political leaders. As best I can tell, this arena has the wholehearted support of the most influential business leaders and politicians [[e.g., the mayor, the governor, etc.).

Don't forget the Unions[[they still hold a lot of power in this state) who will be benefit from the construction jobs.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...elay/25776657/

In the latest Freep poll 77% blamed council, voting for "They're standing in the way of progress". So the majority of people support this project. The only ones left against it are the preservationists and some politicians who are using this situation to gain political points with their supporters [[saying stuff like the money should be used for schools, roads etc). They know full well that it can only go for this type of development. I suspect many still don't understand how public bonds sales work. The state of Michigan is paying nothing. One of its economic development entities is selling bonds, and investors will buy them. That generates the $450 million. That is not tax money, and the bonds themselves [[Series A and B) are backed solely by dedicated revenue streams [[the ODM revenue pledge and the special DDA property tax on downtown properties which is coming from GM and other corporations). None of the money is coming from the general fund.

[Danny]

Don't forget the Unions[[they still hold a lot of power in this state) who will be benefit from the construction jobs.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...elay/25776657/

In the latest Freep poll 77% blamed council, voting for "They're standing in the way of progress". So the majority of people support this project. The only ones left against it are the preservationists and some politicians who are using this situation to gain political points with their supporters [[saying stuff like the money should be used for schools, roads etc). They know full well that it can only go for this type of development. I suspect many still don't understand how public bonds sales work. The state of Michigan is paying nothing. One of its economic development entities is selling bonds, and investors will buy them. That generates the $450 million. That is not tax money, and the bonds themselves [[Series A and B) are backed solely by dedicated revenue streams [[the ODM revenue pledge and the special DDA property tax on downtown properties which is coming from GM and other corporations). None of the money is coming from the general fund.

It's all comes down to these matters:

1. Will the Park and Eddystone Hotel stay?

2. What's in it for Detroiters [[ mostly black Detroiters) Is it jobs for them?

Without these requirements, The new Red Wings Arena construction will never happen.

[erikd]

I think many of your assertions are way, way off.

Are you suggesting that the Ilitches AREN'T going through zoning, permitting, etc. etc. for the arena and the other buildings, e.g., parking deck, team buildings, residential buildings on the arena site? OR are you talking about ONE building [[an abandoned hotel)?

If this project [[the two shuttered hotels) could be compared to a dog or a horse, some are talking about the tail, the least important part of the animal.

************

As far as the what the community gets back from their $ for sports facilities.

Once again, it is the aggregate which is reported in these studies. Some projects have big payoffs. Some made no sense [[e.g., FedEx Field in suburban D.C.) and quite frankly one could see it from day one. Many of these were dumped into suburbia to get them out of the city and there was NOT any plan to use them as a catalyst for urban development. They were DESIGNED [[stupidly) as a place where suburbanites drove to, parked, watched and drove home. Man, I can remember the arena built in early 70s in Richfield, Ohio [[think it was 25 miles from Cleveland and near NOTHING).

If that is what you want, then one should not expect anything greater.

This project seems to have as great a payoff as any sports facility I've seen with the exemption of Nationals Park and Verizon Center, both in D.C., where a sports facility attracts development money. I watched as the Nationals Park was approved by the D.C. council how bidding contests developed for real estate from the stadium site to the SE Expressway.

Surprisingly, if one gets off this forum and into the 'real world' [[this forum is NOT a true representation of the Metro Detroit area. It is a very skewed 'sample', heavily weighted toward certain interests, e.g., historic preservation.), one will find very, very different opinions.

Just talk to the business and political leaders. As best I can tell, this arena has the wholehearted support of the most influential business leaders and politicians [[e.g., the mayor, the governor, etc.).

Does anyone here doubt the wisdom of Dan Gilbert? Would anyone say "I'm right and Dan is wrong. He doesn't know anything about sports facilities and real estate development"?

This isn't about the theoretical possibility of what might happen if Ilitch follows through on his vague promises. This is about making him sign a contract committing to some of those promises in exchange for hundreds of millions in tax dollars.

I agree that his promises sound wonderful, but would be incredibly irresponsible for City Council to agree to this huge investment of tax dollars without something in writing from Ilitch in return.

"Just trust me" isn't good enough for an investment of hundreds of millions in public money.

[Scottathew]

...If Ilitch isn't willing to stand by his word and honor his promises, he can go fuck off to Oakland County, or Oakland California, and swindle their taxpayers.

ErikD sums up my feelings about Ilitch. He's better than Matty, but he's done so little for Detroit when it comes to real estate. He's great at parking lots and tax payer subsidized stuff.

[Mackinaw]

On the whole I am not worried about the business environment in Detroit vis-a-vis red tape. I am not aware of all of our other redevelopers complaining about red tape. Not Gilbert, not the Whitney redevelopers, not Mr. Cohen of DuCharme Place and other projects [[who said the City government is a pleasure to deal with), and not smaller developers and entrepreneurs who are going on and on about how Detroit is basically the ultimate business climate because costs are low and city government is deferential-- open to any new business.

So yeah, perhaps Illitch is getting an ounce of red tape because he's Illitch, and has duped us before, not because our council is hostile to development.

[Mackinaw]

http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/e...rena/25779535/

Great Freep editorial bitch-slapping Walsh's point and calling to mind the spotty track record of Olympia.

[emu steve]

Yes, this is a very intelligently designed large project. It, wisely, takes all of the other sports and entertainment venues and connects [[to) them. It integrates housing, retail, office, etc. as part of a 'master plan' to build out from downtown and connect more fully with Midtown.

I have mentioned on the Brewster / Wheeler project that we are seeing some real 'green shoots' for housing east of Woodward. There are at least two announced significant housing developments and the rumored hotel [[near Ford Field).

As such, all of what Ilitch is doing makes PERFECT sense as to what that area north of Fisher [[West of Woodward) needs:

Something very, very large. It literally defines that area as entertainment/commercial and leaves the East of Woodward as residential.

How this is 'smart' development and even the successful Verizon Center and Nationals Park, were not.

Verizon Center used to be a parking lot and haven for drug dealers. Up go the Verizon Center and is spurs development.

Nationals Park area was worse. Out of sight, out of mind strip clubs, chop shops, light industrial etc. All of a sudden market forces seeing the blight removed [[for the stadium) and they buy up property like crazy and start building housing and commercial office space.

Where the arena project is SMART DEVELOPMENT is that it isn't willy nilly [[sp) development. All of the pieces integrate into what is already existing south of the Fisher and what is to be near the arena.

[ghettopalmetto]

Nationals Park area was worse. Out of sight, out of mind strip clubs, chop shops, light industrial etc. All of a sudden market forces seeing the blight removed [[for the stadium) and they buy up property like crazy and start building housing and commercial office space.

Where the arena project is SMART DEVELOPMENT is that it isn't willy nilly [[sp) development. All of the pieces integrate into what is already existing south of the Fisher and what is to be near the arena.

The Southwest and Near Southeast areas of DC already had housing and office construction underway while the Nationals were still playing in Montreal. But you can keep on believing whatever you want.

You want to see a couple new restaurants and a couple new bars open? Give me $200 million with no strings, and I'll build you a God damn restaurant and a bar.

[emu steve]

The Southwest and Near Southeast areas of DC already had housing and office construction underway while the Nationals were still playing in Montreal. But you can keep on believing whatever you want.

You want to see a couple new restaurants and a couple new bars open? Give me $200 million with no strings, and I'll build you a God damn restaurant and a bar.

I have been very, very familiar with that area for the last 10+ years. I would not walk that area night or day.

The amount of new construction near the Navy Yard metro wasn't much.

Quite frankly, it was a new Metro Station which didn't produce much development because of how bad the area was.

Yeah, there was DOT [[Dept. of Transportation) by the Navy Yard subway station, etc. but all in all a very, very bad area.

[Bham1982]

I have been very, very familiar with that area for the last 10+ years. I would not walk that area night or day.

The amount of new construction near the Navy Yard metro wasn't much.

Quite frankly, it was a new Metro Station which didn't produce much development because of how bad the area was.

Yeah, there was DOT [[Dept. of Transportation) by the Navy Yard subway station, etc. but all in all a very, very bad area.

That Nationals Stadium has absolutely nothing to do with development in DC. If anything, it's a hinderance to growth.

The buildings going up around Nationals Stadium are all federal buildings or for their contractors. You really believe that the Navy or the Treasury or HUD are adding employees and building buildings and housing contractors because a baseball team changed locations?

Federal procurement has zero to do with MLB, which should be fairly obvious.

[emu steve]

That Nationals Stadium has absolutely nothing to do with development in DC. If anything, it's a hinderance to growth.

The buildings going up around Nationals Stadium are all federal buildings or for their contractors. You really believe that the Navy or the Treasury or HUD are adding employees and building buildings and housing contractors because a baseball team changed locations?

Federal procurement has zero to do with MLB, which should be fairly obvious.

Disagree 100%. Tons of housing and office buildings are going up.

Navy Yard has been there a long time and no development.

Green line [[subway) came there in 1991 [[at Navy Yard, other stops to be completed later) still not much development except I guess DOT.

DOT moved there and still not much development.

What this shows: A subway line, Green Line, in D.C. area will not have much of an effect in a desolate area. I can give other examples, e.g., Green Line in Suitland, which has been a very, very rough area for many decades [[I worked at the Census Bureau many years ago. Employees did not go out for lunch. They stayed in the cafeteria. That area is no better today then when I worked there.

A single big headquarters building still not enough to transform an area. [[Buzzard Point as D.C. folks know was an incredibly stupid idea: Think ONE office building would lead to transformation).

Nationals Park was transformative because it lead to a mad rush to acquire buildable land.

P.S. Treasury? HUD is in S.W. maybe two or three miles from the Navy Yard and has been for decades. I'll check what else is around Nationals Park on M. Street S.E.