What is going on at Red Wings arena site?

[Towne Cluber]

Bham, worse yet is your inability to distinguish between fact and your own opinions.

Did you seriously compare an arena to a jail? Are you seriously claiming that the TD Garden [[or LCA for that matter) is a net-negative to its surrounding neighborhood? You should also note that it isn't located in Downtown Boston. Also, why does every argument of yours now go out of its way to somehow involve Trump? Your latest act is quite a doozy!

[emu steve]

No, it explains your inability to distinguish between correlation and causation.

The fact that buildings are built around an arena does not "prove" that the arena made a positive contribution to the neighborhood, or "caused" the construction of said buildings.

I used to live near a Brooklyn jail, which is now surrounded by superluxury condo developments. We talking $2 million 2-bedrooms, just a few feet from prisoners. The jail is a net-negative to the neighborhood, and didn't cause the luxury construction.

Sometimes folks need to revert to common sense.

Five years or 10 years ago the area where LCA is going up, and nearby, was completely dead. Some ugly buildings and a sea of dirt parking lots. This was DESPITE what Gilbert was doing in the CBD.

Then, on a time line, 'something happened':

1). Plans for LCA were announced.

2). QLine was announced.

I can't not think of anything else 'big' which happened.

[southen]

Sometime we need to revert back and study history as well. Why or why wasn't that area developed? Oh yeah, Ilitch was sitting on it and letting it deteriorate for years. Let's not act like he swooped in and saved this area. It may have been on the outskirts of development downtown anyway, but his land grab and plan to sit on the property for years if not decades also contributed to the blight.

You've been duped by the branding campaign.

[Bham1982]

Bham, worse yet is your inability to distinguish between fact and your own opinions.

What "facts" are you referring to? The "fact" is that there's a consensus among economists that arenas do nothing for neighborhoods or local economies.

Did you seriously compare an arena to a jail?

Yes. A jail had tons of nearby development too, so I can assume the jail caused the luxury condos, correct? That's the exact same argument the arena boosters are claiming. They cannot distinguish between correlation and causation.

Are you seriously claiming that the TD Garden [[or LCA for that matter) is a net-negative to its surrounding neighborhood?

I don't know if it's a net-negative, but I'm confident it isn't a significant net-positive. Probably a wash, at best.

You should also note that it isn't located in Downtown Boston.

Then you don't know Boston and shouldn't be commenting. The TD Garden is absolutely, 100%, considered downtown Boston. It's right next to North Station, in the heart of the city center, steps from everything downtown.

Also, why does every argument of yours now go out of its way to somehow involve Trump? Your latest act is quite a doozy!

I'm so sorry you're so easily offended by logic and fact and can't fathom any resistance to your Dear Leader.

The point is that, just with the election, this is an example of Americans discarding fact and truth for utter garbage. People don't think, they feel. You have no evidence for your "feelings", but are convinced you can't be wrong.

Stop projecting, and whining about others, and defend your claim. How do arenas "cause" luxury housing from being built, absent any evidence? Are economists all dummies? Is it a secret conspiracy against billionaire sports owners?

[Bham1982]

Sometimes folks need to revert to common sense.

Five years or 10 years ago the area where LCA is going up, and nearby, was completely dead. Some ugly buildings and a sea of dirt parking lots. This was DESPITE what Gilbert was doing in the CBD.

Five or ten years ago the area where the Brooklyn jail was going up, was completely dead. Some ugly buildings and a sea of parking lots. This was DESPITE all the nearby gentrification in Brooklyn.

Then, on a time line, 'something happened':

Same thing in Brooklyn. "Something happened". All those lots got filled in. I guess it was the jail...

I can't not think of anything else 'big' which happened.

You don't think it's relevant that Metro Detroit went from economic collapse to huge boom?

I would say that's a tad more relevant to the health of the downtown housing market as compared to whether the Red Wings play on the south or north end of downtown.

Other changes include thousands of new downtown jobs, billions in nearby investments, booming stock market, national trend towards urban living, lower crime and stronger city govt. That's what drives urban living, not access to Monster Truck rallies and Britney Spears concerts.

The suburban market is booming too. Properties that you couldn't give away are now going for huge numbers. There are scores of million-dollar properties in my area that were occupied by cheap bungalows 5-10 years ago. Is that due to Pizza Pizza Arena too? I'm right off Woodward...

[Towne Cluber]

Bham, you're [[once again) dead wrong about a subject. Many subjects. Furthermore, I can guarantee that I know a lot more about Boston than you. The TD Garden is 100% NOT considered Downtown, nor is it in the heart of the city center, nor is it steps from everything Downtown. South Station is the main transit hub, not North Station. So it is you that shouldn't be commenting about it [[or a lot of other things).

Once again, there's simply no need for the Trump stuff. It doesn't score you any additional points, and it doesn't make your claims any more accurate.

[[And no, I didn't vote for him, nor her)

[SammyS]

Funny how most real estate listings around the new arena mention "steps away from the new arena" rather than "massive price reduction due to new arena"

[bust]

Funny how most real estate listings around the new arena mention "steps away from the new arena" rather than "massive price reduction due to new arena"

When I was looking for an apartment in Islington, London, and expanded my search North into Highbury no fewer than three separate real estate agents assured me the apartment they were showing me was "not too close to the stadium" [[Arsenal Stadium). That's when I knew there was a problem.

[bust]

Bham, you're [[once again) dead wrong about a subject. Many subjects. Furthermore, I can guarantee that I know a lot more about Boston than you. The TD Garden is 100% NOT considered Downtown, nor is it in the heart of the city center, nor is it steps from everything Downtown. South Station is the main transit hub, not North Station. So it is you that shouldn't be commenting about it [[or a lot of other things).

Once again, there's simply no need for the Trump stuff. It doesn't score you any additional points, and it doesn't make your claims any more accurate.

[[And no, I didn't vote for him, nor her)

I'm not going to debate what constitutes downtown Boston, but within a half mile / short walk of the TD Garden is Beacon Hill [[Boston's most upscale neighborhood) on one side and the North End [[one of its most interesting) on the other. And if it isn't downtown it's within a half mile of it in a third direction. It's a half mile from City Hall and roughly the same distance from Faneuil Hall as it is from Grand Circus Park to Hart Plaza. The neighborhood has access to some of the city's best transit. And it sits between Somerville [[one of metro Boston's hippest neighborhoods) and the city center.

Boston has been booming for decades. Maybe another way of looking at this is to consider what prevented the area around the Garden from participating in it for so long. Are you sure it's not that people didn't want to live near the Garden, the sports bars, the crowds, and the traffic that it attracts?

In any case Detroit has a chance to do it better. At least the marketing materials envision a thriving multi-purpose neighborhood that isn't totally limited to the Arena and related businesses. Whether or not it makes sense to build residences adjacent to an arena, the fact that they're building some means there's some hope it will actually take shape.

That said, I don't expect the dreams they want us to imagine on the districtdetroit.com website will fully materialize. And if we do ever see art galleries and poetry slams in "Cass Park Village" it won't be because of the arena. Those things are more compatible with the Cass Corridor of old.

http://www.districtdetroit.com/neigh...s-park-village

[Towne Cluber]

Bust, there have been calls/demands for more residential, retail, and entertainment around the TD Garden for many years. The only things that prevented it were the Big Dig and then the recession.

FYI, that area is 1 mile from Downtown Boston.

[MSUguy]

http://www.districtdetroit.com/news/...ourse-underway

[emu steve]

Just bumping up this thread.

For those who know how to find their way to Fox Sports Detroit, FSD did a show of LCA, urban revitalization issues, Pistons, etc.

Lot of folks who have been involved in the Detroit sports scene.

The one I found most interesting was UofM's Dr. Mark Rosentraub who had a nice discussion. He debated the issue of building 'inside [[core) out or neighborhoods. Indicated BOTH are necessary but he believes that bring capital to the downtown core was the way cities were built and then things spread out from there.

I agree with him.

BTW, for those who are into case studies and understand So. Cal., there was a some mention of what the Staples Center did for L.A. They also discussed Petco Park, but I don't know much about its impact on San Diego.

[clubboss]

Just bumping up this thread.

For those who know how to find their way to Fox Sports Detroit, FSD did a show of LCA, urban revitalization issues, Pistons, etc.

Lot of folks who have been involved in the Detroit sports scene.

The one I found most interesting was UofM's Dr. Mark Rosentraub who had a nice discussion. He debated the issue of building 'inside [[core) out or neighborhoods. Indicated BOTH are necessary but he believes that bring capital to the downtown core was the way cities were built and then things spread out from there.

I agree with him.

BTW, for those who are into case studies and understand So. Cal., there was a some mention of what the Staples Center did for L.A. They also discussed Petco Park, but I don't know much about its impact on San Diego.

I lived in southern California for several years, dividing the time between Orange and San Diego counties. Living in San Diego, I stayed downtown – East Village section, which is home to Petco Park [[think animal supplies). Petco Park is literally an anchor and prop for East Village. East Village is not the toniest area of the downtown area by any means, it is however a solidly established downtown neighborhood – it’s sports the only bowling alley in the downtown area vicinity. Upper middle class, nothing fancy for San Diego, gainfully employed, young, unattached yuppies, who would prefer beers, baseball games, and bowling.
There are a select few apartments that overlook the ballpark.

[emu steve]

Interesting. I would think Staples Center had a much larger effect, but of course, everything is bigger in L.A. even something large can be small, by comparision.

BTW, I do love So. Cal. I visit San Clemente once or twice a year. Fly into LAX [[to save $). Went to the S.D. Zoo in March.

If I ever left D.C. area, it would be the San Clemente area.

I also went to Laguna Beach. "On the 7th day, God created Laguna Beach, then he rested."

[clubboss]

Interesting. I would think Staples Center had a much larger effect, but of course, everything is bigger in L.A. even something large can be small, by comparision.

BTW, I do love So. Cal. I visit San Clemente once or twice a year. Fly into LAX [[to save $). Went to the S.D. Zoo in March.

If I ever left D.C. area, it would be the San Clemente area.

I also went to Laguna Beach. "On the 7th day, God created Laguna Beach, then he rested."

The SD zoo is really nice – located in picturesque Balboa Park, it was part of my daily walk from East Village [[Petco) to Balboa Park [[the zoo). By the way, Petco is due south from the zoo, couple of miles maybe. Petco Park also borders the infamous Gaslamp District. There are days Petco opens its outer doors, and let pedestrians stroll around inside the park.
Not such a fan of California - met some wonderful people, not a fan of the heat [[la nina), earthquakes, fires - right out of hell, and the occasional locust swarm. Top of my list is the cost of living, namely housing costs - owners or renters.

[emu steve]

The SD zoo is really nice – located in picturesque Balboa Park, it was part of my daily walk from East Village [[Petco) to Balboa Park [[the zoo). By the way, Petco is due south from the zoo, couple of miles maybe. Petco Park also borders the infamous Gaslamp District. There are days Petco opens its outer doors, and let pedestrians stroll around inside the park.
Not such a fan of California - met some wonderful people, not a fan of the heat [[la nina), earthquakes, fires - right out of hell, and the occasional locust swarm. Top of my list is the cost of living, namely housing costs - owners or renters.

I still have the safari park on my 'to do' list.

BTW, in my case, I have a weekly timeshare in San Clemente so my cost of living to visit is air fare, car rental, etc.

It is essentially a one bedroom condo so I can cook, etc. just like being at home.

Walking along the beach/pier is cheaper than admission to the S.D. Zoo. Lol.

[emu steve]

I'm not going to debate what constitutes downtown Boston, but within a half mile / short walk of the TD Garden is Beacon Hill [[Boston's most upscale neighborhood) on one side and the North End [[one of its most interesting) on the other. And if it isn't downtown it's within a half mile of it in a third direction. It's a half mile from City Hall and roughly the same distance from Faneuil Hall as it is from Grand Circus Park to Hart Plaza. The neighborhood has access to some of the city's best transit. And it sits between Somerville [[one of metro Boston's hippest neighborhoods) and the city center.

Boston has been booming for decades. Maybe another way of looking at this is to consider what prevented the area around the Garden from participating in it for so long. Are you sure it's not that people didn't want to live near the Garden, the sports bars, the crowds, and the traffic that it attracts?

In any case Detroit has a chance to do it better. At least the marketing materials envision a thriving multi-purpose neighborhood that isn't totally limited to the Arena and related businesses. Whether or not it makes sense to build residences adjacent to an arena, the fact that they're building some means there's some hope it will actually take shape.

That said, I don't expect the dreams they want us to imagine on the districtdetroit.com website will fully materialize. And if we do ever see art galleries and poetry slams in "Cass Park Village" it won't be because of the arena. Those things are more compatible with the Cass Corridor of old.

http://www.districtdetroit.com/neigh...s-park-village

Without flaming old issues, the big issue because of the shear numbers are the residences at the Eddystone.

All of the lofts surrounding LCA will be small numbers [[not too many). The proposed hotel is almost a sure bet because of whom it will serve, e.g., those going to sporting events.

Eddystone will have what 75 or more units?

If Eddystone is successful [[and also 640 Temple) will that pave the way for the old hotel on Cass/Temple to be redeveloped???

I assume developers will redevelop until they see the market becoming saturated or lack of new demand. Isn't that how development works: First in do well and others join in until those 'late to the party' usually don't do well, at all.

[drjeff]

There's a new structure being constructed in heavy steel just north of the main arena complex now. What is it going to be?

[emu steve]

There's a new structure being constructed in heavy steel just north of the main arena complex now. What is it going to be?

Isn't that WSU's Ilitch School of Business?

Didn't they break ground about 6 months ago?

[ekleezy]

There's a new structure being constructed in heavy steel just north of the main arena complex now. What is it going to be?

That's the new Wayne State School of Business

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bus...king/87339706/

[drjeff]

Yes that makes sense. In my mind it was going to be on the other side of Temple.

[Rock N Rye]

The Buildings west of the business school have now been demolished. Is the next development in "The District" to build another parking garage now that the Henry and Park garage is almost done?

[emu steve]

I believe that site has always been TBD. If I remember correctly, the hope was that the Pistons [[and DMC) would do something there. I doubt the Wings would do a medical deal with the DMC there.

I really, really doubt a parking garage.

It has a lot of possibility for housing. It would be great for commercial, e.g., CVS or anything which fits into the sports/entertainment or housing mosaic of that area.

That area will have a lot of foot traffic and also more and more people living in the area.

[southen]

How much do you want to bet it is a garage?

[Rock N Rye]

I believe that site has always been TBD. If I remember correctly, the hope was that the Pistons [[and DMC) would do something there. I doubt the Wings would do a medical deal with the DMC there.

I really, really doubt a parking garage.

It has a lot of possibility for housing. It would be great for commercial, e.g., CVS or anything which fits into the sports/entertainment or housing mosaic of that area.

That area will have a lot of foot traffic and also more and more people living in the area.

They did say that the Pistons practice facility would've had to be built on a parking garage at that location, when they discussed that option. The DMC building was supposed to be between the business school and the arena, facing Woodward. So far, the parking garages they have built in the district are supposed to be concealed by office or residential buildings with ground floor retail, which will look alright if they follow through.