What is going on at Red Wings arena site?

[dtowncitylover]

The "neighborhood" descriptions on the District Detroit website make me kind of nauseous. Ilitches do "urbanism"! Puke...

LOL Thank you!

How the eff is the Masonic Temple going to be a hotbed for artists? Is CCS going to move in? Makes me cringe...

[313rd]

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Arena progress is great, but where is the LC HQ...the super modest apartment buildings planned for next to CoPa [[btw- they should just scrap those, and give to Gilbert to build something taller)...the Eddystone rehab...the apartments and offices allegedly surrounding the arena???

The apartments and offices around arena will be built, as they are needed to support the roof.

I could see the Eddystone getting a band aid similar to the Michigan Central Station....abatement and gutted on the interior, new roof and new windows with some tuck pointing of brick work and have ready for future "prime development opportunity' there is now way that this shell of a building left, will remain as is for the opening of the arena.

Still holding my breath on the CoPa apartments.

[Gistok]

When dealing with Ilitch promises, we have to all pretend to be from Missouri.... the "show me" state...

With the Fine Arts Building Facade, United Artists Building/Theatre, Moose Lodge, Blenheim Apts., Detroit Life Building, and now Eddystone Hotel.... their "things to fix up" list is getting as long as their promised "new things to build" list....

All it would take is ONE thing on these two lists to show good faith... just one....

• Pollyanna

noun 1. an excessively or blindly optimistic person.

adjective 2. [[often lowercase). Also, Pollyannaish. unreasonably or illogically optimistic:
some pollyanna notions about world peace.

[emu steve]

That's great you view the glass half full, but to me this is about more than just the arena. Sure the arena is the main piece of the entire project, but as was mentioned, this is about an entire district. No work being started on the Eddystone, considering how long it takes to rehab buildings [[Book-Cadillac/Broderick/Whitney) it needs to get started if it wants to be on track with the opening of the arena. Otherwise, it's going to look like way out of place when the arena opens, which will then be pushed toward demolition because it's an 'eyesore.' You can hold me to those words because when has Ilitch ever stuck true to his word on rehabbing a building?

I still maintain that folks here are putting the cart before the horse.

As much as it grates folks, those who are impatient or distrusting of the Ilitches, there is an orderly sequence of tasks to be completed.

I still believe the first year is the excavation, steel work, concrete, etc. After that work is completed then different type work can commence including work on the Eddystone.

This project is what about 27 months in duration and we are about 7 month into it. 75% of the timeline is yet to come.

As an example, aren't there a lot of equipment on the site of the proposed Iltich School of Business?

How can they build that building until that heavy equipment is gone?

I believe there is equipment on the land between N. Henry and the Fisher. Nothing happening there soon.

[Gistok]

Emu Steve.... I'm not using a broad stroke to label all optimists on the Arena issue as naiive.... I'm just preparing folks for the worst case scenario.... We've been this route before... [[Stadia district) and nothing happened with the promises.

Ironically Chuck Forbes did the Ilitch's a big favor by insisting that the Gem/Century and Elwood Bar be moved. Because had they not... they would have been pounded to rubble to be replaced by asphalt, and the Ilitch's reputation would have been even worse.

[emu steve]

Emu Steve.... I'm not using a broad stroke to label all optimists on the Arena issue as naiive.... I'm just preparing folks for the worst case scenario.... We've been this route before... [[Stadia district) and nothing happened with the promises.

Ironically Chuck Forbes did the Ilitch's a big favor by insisting that the Gem/Century and Elwood Bar be moved. Because had they not... they would have been pounded to rubble to be replaced by asphalt, and the Ilitch's reputation would have been even worse.

I hear you. But, some of the conversation seems like a coin flip to start a football game: Some want the ball NOW. Others, say taking it to start the 2nd half is a better strategy... [[in part to prevent the other team from having the ball at the end of the 1st half and to start the 2nd - gives the other team two chances to score consecutively).

To me, there major 'project management' issues in a project as huge as this. By Project management I mean general issues managing very large projects as well as specific issues with specific projects.

And lest I be wrong, there are now historic district issues which impact the Ilitch School of Business site. Right?

I was in Detroit last week and saw Temple and how it is narrower between Woodward and Cass than Cass and the Lodge. The western part of that site is now subject to debate between the Ilitches and the city.

Before a shovel is turned west of Sproat [[for the Ilitch School of Business), ALL parties need to be on the same page about that street, those buildings, and also the houses on Cass, etc. etc.

Does this delay the school say 12 months???? I can see real problems delaying the project where both parties, Ilitch and the historic district folks, are completely on different pages...

Right now it sounds like a 'show stopper' to me.

[emu steve]

That's great you view the glass half full, but to me this is about more than just the arena. Sure the arena is the main piece of the entire project, but as was mentioned, this is about an entire district. No work being started on the Eddystone, considering how long it takes to rehab buildings [[Book-Cadillac/Broderick/Whitney) it needs to get started if it wants to be on track with the opening of the arena. Otherwise, it's going to look like way out of place when the arena opens, which will then be pushed toward demolition because it's an 'eyesore.' You can hold me to those words because when has Ilitch ever stuck true to his word on rehabbing a building?

You quoted me correctly, but I'd like to say I now view the glass somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4s full after reading this article.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...ckey/79512570/

Probably around 71.3% full. Which is about as full as a glass gets in Detroit [[unless it is beer).

This article explains a lot, amplifies a lot, and answers a lot [[RE: Ilitich headquarters building... When will they start it.) and more importantly, unlike some projects, this one appears to be truly transformative.

The 'theme' is that this big project which was originally listed as 650M is now envisioned with a lot of PRIVATE monies including much from folks not named Ilitch, will be well over 1B bucks.

Actually, if my math skills haven't failed me: 1.2B is almost 2 x 650M [[185% to be exact)

Enjoy!! The weather is nice. The sun is shining. There isn't two feet of snow on the ground.

Zimmerman and Upton are coming. A big new office building is coming across from Comerica.

Spring is coming. Be hopeful.

[emu steve]

The one thing which concerns me if the placement of the hotel [[and office).

I thought the hotel would be at Woodward/Fisher and didn't expect an office there.

I can see an hotel being built on the site [[it would be a big success, IMO) but is there demand for an another office building??? If not, will that corner be empty for a while? That could be a bummer if it happens that way.

Will two hotels end up on Henry competing with each other???

BTW, this article addresses Temple and those buildings... I really thought the Ilitches would push hard to have Temple widened between Woodward / Cass.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...ghts/79541564/

[emu steve]

The apartments and offices around arena will be built, as they are needed to support the roof.

I could see the Eddystone getting a band aid similar to the Michigan Central Station....abatement and gutted on the interior, new roof and new windows with some tuck pointing of brick work and have ready for future "prime development opportunity' there is now way that this shell of a building left, will remain as is for the opening of the arena.

Still holding my breath on the CoPa apartments.

• The first residential projects will be a 125-unit building near the arena, followed by a 100-unit rehab of the historic and long-abandoned Eddystone Hotel. The first building could open in late 2017 or early 2018, and the new Eddystone would arrive in 2018.

[Zads07]

You quoted me correctly, but I'd like to say I now view the glass somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4s full after reading this article.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...ckey/79512570/

Probably around 71.3% full. Which is about as full as a glass gets in Detroit [[unless it is beer).

This article explains a lot, amplifies a lot, and answers a lot [[RE: Ilitich headquarters building... When will they start it.) and more importantly, unlike some projects, this one appears to be truly transformative.

The 'theme' is that this big project which was originally listed as 650M is now envisioned with a lot of PRIVATE monies including much from folks not named Ilitch, will be well over 1B bucks.

Actually, if my math skills haven't failed me: 1.2B is almost 2 x 650M [[185% to be exact)

Enjoy!! The weather is nice. The sun is shining. There isn't two feet of snow on the ground.

Zimmerman and Upton are coming. A big new office building is coming across from Comerica.

Spring is coming. Be hopeful.

Well EMU Steve, I must say, your hope is positive. Today's articles about the progress also gives me reassurance that this is on track and he plans on making it a district. What intrigues me is yes, your point about the hotel being moved down the service drive from Woodward.

In the updated renderings, there seems to be residential attached to the parking garage. I don't know about you, but living in that complex would have to be an absolute nightmare with events going on as well as the noise and amount of vehicles.

Also, does anyone notice the yellow at the very low left, next to the Eddystone of the new rendering? That's residential and a new building that wasn't on the old renderings and currently vacant land.

[Bham1982]

This entire thread is like bizzaroland of self-delusion. This project is to build an arena and parking. That's it. He owns a sports team, and wants a new arena before he dies. He doesn't give a crap about urban planning or placemaking.

Will Illitch build the hotel or the offices first? Or maybe it's the luxury condos? When are they building the subway station? When is the Cheesecake Factory coming? Or maybe the Dow HQ? When is Saks opening? I'm sure Illitch is busy working on the plans as we speak...

[Zads07]

Additionally after reading both Crain's and Freep reports, this is very exciting. They plan on renovation their buildings they own in the district area.

Highlights [[Link):
-United Artists Building/Theatre
-Fine Arts Facade
-Detroit Life Building
-Blenheim Building
-Michigan Chronicle
-Manhattan Apartments
-Cromwell Apartments
-Altadena Apartments
-The American [[Hotel Fort Wayne)
-2930 Cass
-2900 Cass
-Eddystone Hotel
-Alhambra Apartments



They've also added one story onto their new LC HQ next to the Fox. They also plan on not widening Temple but having larger sidewalks. That's pretty much the opposite of what they've tried doing.

I'm still skeptical because of the history but there seems to be hope this all comes true.

Crain's Article
Freep Highlights
Freep Story

[401don]

I really don't see what retail will be coming for several years until there's a few thousand new housing units built. The area will still be dead during the day and you can bet Ilitch will want all of the team merchandise revenue and most of the food for themselves, just as they did with Comerica. You might see a grocery store and a couple of restaurants.

[pizzaparty62]

The most encouraging tidbit from the Crain's article is Olympia's pushback of traditional requirements from grocers, e.g., big signs and surface lots. It seems Ilitch really wants an urban environment. I'm growing more optimistic.

[emu steve]

One of the things I thought about regarding how active the area will be when there are not arena events:

What is and what will be the EMPLOYMENT situation for the Little Caesars? Will they substantially increase employment at the new headquarters building?

I also agree with previous comments that having the school of business there is a real plus, because students will produce a lot of foot traffic throughout the day, not just certain peak times.

Another thought: Might the proposed office building be an ILITCH office building? Related to the Wings? Or is the Wings offices fully integrated with the offices which are attached to the arena, per se?

[emu steve]

Well EMU Steve, I must say, your hope is positive. Today's articles about the progress also gives me reassurance that this is on track and he plans on making it a district. What intrigues me is yes, your point about the hotel being moved down the service drive from Woodward.

In the updated renderings, there seems to be residential attached to the parking garage. I don't know about you, but living in that complex would have to be an absolute nightmare with events going on as well as the noise and amount of vehicles.

Also, does anyone notice the yellow at the very low left, next to the Eddystone of the new rendering? That's residential and a new building that wasn't on the old renderings and currently vacant land.

I went through the list and guess I'm not as dumb as I thought I was...

I thought I was doing pie-in-the-sky with the thought of student housing there... [[I kind of thought what out-of-town grad business student wouldn't like to live there?)

Well Temple and Woodward has proposed student housing.

[Junjie]

So, I'll admit to still being a skeptic until we see shovels in the ground on this stuff. But the level of detail has me more and more hopeful that I've been wrong. Seems like it'd be silly to put all of this out there and then have people asking "... so whatever happened to ___?" in a year.

More broadly though, the claims about 45 blocks and such still strike me as way over the top. Honestly if they put together just what's shown in that rendering immediately above I'll count it as a success.

[Junjie]

The most encouraging tidbit from the Crain's article is Olympia's pushback of traditional requirements from grocers, e.g., big signs and surface lots. It seems Ilitch really wants an urban environment. I'm growing more optimistic.

I thought that was quite odd. They specifically called out Target as having rules that need changing, but Target already builds stores in both the 20,000 sq ft and 80,000-100,1000 ranges in cities, without parking lots etc. They just opened one near me a couple months ago. Interesting that they also said Meijer is thinking of pursuing such a format.

[emu steve]

This entire thread is like bizzaroland of self-delusion. This project is to build an arena and parking. That's it. He owns a sports team, and wants a new arena before he dies. He doesn't give a crap about urban planning or placemaking.

Will Illitch build the hotel or the offices first? Or maybe it's the luxury condos? When are they building the subway station? When is the Cheesecake Factory coming? Or maybe the Dow HQ? When is Saks opening? I'm sure Illitch is busy working on the plans as we speak...

In five or 10 years, this forum will anoint you OR I as the 'false prophet' of this decade.

I've been predicting big things. This 450M arena project could grow to over 1B within 5 years while you seem to predict an arena and parking and parking and no urban revitalization.

I hope you're wrong.

[tkelly1986]

I've never been an Illitch/Olympia fan, as their MO that parking lot trumps historic preservation [[because it's a quick buck and preservation is riskier) has robbed the city of some architectural history that cannot be replaced. However, credit must be given where credit is due. He could have kept Little Caesars in Farmington instead of renovating the Fox Building during a time when others were fleeing downtown. He could have easily found an alternative location for Comerica Park in Oakland County. Same with the new hockey arena. In fact, there was a rumor he was offered some land in Novi a number of years ago [[before Gilbert started making moves downtown). Thus, does he care about urban planning or place-making? Probably not as much as Gilbert...but he did have options, and may have a different approach than Dan. Gilbert wants to control everything and Illitch seems to want partners, so the timeline may be pushed out.

[emu steve]

So, I'll admit to still being a skeptic until we see shovels in the ground on this stuff. But the level of detail has me more and more hopeful that I've been wrong. Seems like it'd be silly to put all of this out there and then have people asking "... so whatever happened to ___?" in a year.

More broadly though, the claims about 45 blocks and such still strike me as way over the top. Honestly if they put together just what's shown in that rendering immediately above I'll count it as a success.

I will be satisfied the next time I'm in Detroit [[this summer) I see work being done on the new office building next to the Fox.

As a poster indicated, a number of buildings are attached to the main structure of the arena so those will be 2017 projects.

I also thinking the parking decks, including Henry and the hotel will be 2017.

My 'crystal ball' says 2016 will be mostly the arena and the new office building next to the Fox. Not much more. Those are two biggies.

2017 should be a sight to behold with all of the construction around the perimeter of the arena.

2018 and beyond construction should be peripheral to the arena site, per se.

[MSUguy]

In the updated renderings, there seems to be residential attached to the parking garage. I don't know about you, but living in that complex would have to be an absolute nightmare with events going on as well as the noise and amount of vehicles.

Also, does anyone notice the yellow at the very low left, next to the Eddystone of the new rendering? That's residential and a new building that wasn't on the old renderings and currently vacant land.

Residental has always been planned for along that structure it was in the original site plan, those will townhouse.

[bust]

Additionally after reading both Crain's and Freep reports, this is very exciting. They plan on renovation their buildings they own in the district area.

Highlights [[Link):
-United Artists Building/Theatre
-Fine Arts Facade
-Detroit Life Building
-Blenheim Building
-Michigan Chronicle
-Manhattan Apartments
-Cromwell Apartments
-Altadena Apartments
-The American [[Hotel Fort Wayne)
-2930 Cass
-2900 Cass
-Eddystone Hotel
-Alhambra Apartments



They've also added one story onto their new LC HQ next to the Fox. They also plan on not widening Temple but having larger sidewalks. That's pretty much the opposite of what they've tried doing.

I'm still skeptical because of the history but there seems to be hope this all comes true.

Crain's Article
Freep Highlights
Freep Story

For now, this serves best as a map of broken promises and Ilitch neglect. And a very incomplete one at that.

I would love for the Ilitches to surprise us by actually following through on their promises and realizing the great potential of their vast real estate holdings. But until there is material proof they are investing into that potential I'm a skeptic. Not with everyone. History instructs how to regard the Ilitch version of urban development.

Here is another chance for the Ilitches to pivot, contribute more positively to the city, and boost their reputation. Better late than never. But let's remain appropriately skeptical until then. Like someone else said, this may just be part of their PR machine. Don't be surprised if they never invest in most of this.

...Spring is coming. Be hopeful.

P.S.: emu steve, your timing is remarkable!

[emu steve]

For now, this serves best as a map of broken promises and Ilitch neglect. And a very incomplete one at that.

I would love for the Ilitches to surprise us by actually following through on their promises and realizing the great potential of their vast real estate holdings. But until there is material proof they are investing into that potential I'm a skeptic. Not with everyone. History instructs how to regard the Ilitch version of urban development.

Here is another chance for the Ilitches to pivot, contribute more positively to the city, and boost their reputation. Better late than never. But let's remain appropriately skeptical until then. Like someone else said, this may just be part of their PR machine. Don't be surprised if they never invest in most of this.



P.S.: emu steve, your timing is remarkable!

I looked at the weather forecast for Feb in the D. Nothing in there to cause a groundhog to go to Home Depot and buy an electric heater... Don't see anything in single digits let lone negative digits...

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/det...weather/348755

[SpartanDawg]

here are some updated pics of the progress of the arena... all taken within the past 5 days or so

exciting stuff!