Mall in downtown Detroit?

[D_Town]

If there had to be some kind of "mall" I would say it needs to be open air like Americana Manhassat.

[MSUguy]

I don't think these are the same things as malls or urban malls. Malls are deliberate developments to produce shopping districts where it did not previously exist. It's not organic in the same way that arcades are organic -- usually materializing around some type of transit node or other high traffic area.

And, IMO, that's why urban malls tend to do so poorly in the U.S. They are usually built in some underutilized part of town without the fundamentals to naturally draw in patrons once the shiny factor wears off. They are conceived of as the destination itself, instead of as a complement to some other destination. Atlantic Center in Brooklyn was used as an example of a successful urban mall, but that place has actually been relatively struggling for most of its existence. It has only recently become more "successful" after the Barclays Center was built across the street and Atlantic Terminal has become a more prominent transit hub for commuters.

This is should be posted every time someone brings up the idea of a mall downtown as a way to draw people. This is exactly why the RenCen failed in that role, why most downtown malls failed, and why this idea is DOA.

[wolverine]

So many American cities have built malls downtown. If you are a big global city shopping and tourism destination downtown, then yes...malls work. If not, no. The mall will fail or be comprised of crappy stores and eateries struggling to stay open plus a lot of vacancy.

So can Detroit support a downtown mall? Probably not in decades. It could support a large food court with some retail that caters to the office crowd [[like Walgreens, Hallmark, watch repair, barbers and salons), but not the urban traditional mall many would envision.

If detroit wants to increase retail downtown, it will be in the form of stores with street frontage. Not an enclosed shopping center. That's just never going to happen.

[dtowncitylover]

The final stretch of woodward towards Jefferson would be high end stores unique to metro Detroit [[Hermes, Calypso, Jack Spade, Louboutin, etc), basically Oak St in Chicago.

That's all nice but that part of Woodward is too wide for Americans to support any retail and lacks any place to put those kind of stores. If anything bring back Washington Blvd.

[royce]

At one time when Cobo Hall was struggling, I thought, given its size, that Cobo would be ideal for a downtown shopping mall. It had the space and it had the parking. The exhibit space was big enough to hold a Macy's and a JC Penney. Only other place for a mall would be on the Hudson's site and that would be a vertical mall. BTW, if the folks running Hudson's had used the Kern Block/Compuware site for a huge parking deck connected to the store, the store or a future incarnation might have survived and today we would have a flagship department store downtown, comparable to Macy's in Manhattan.

[canuck]

At one time when Cobo Hall was struggling, I thought, given its size, that Cobo would be ideal for a downtown shopping mall. It had the space and it had the parking. The exhibit space was big enough to hold a Macy's and a JC Penney. Only other place for a mall would be on the Hudson's site and that would be a vertical mall. BTW, if the folks running Hudson's had used the Kern Block/Compuware site for a huge parking deck connected to the store, the store or a future incarnation might have survived and today we would have a flagship department store downtown, comparable to Macy's in Manhattan.

And Cobo Hall is only getting better, and best suited for big events that will be dear to Detroit's future prosperity. If the city's leaders work this out right, tourism will once again be a big card in the city's fortunes.

The master plan must include coordination between sports venues, tour operators, taxi companies, the airport, transit authoriies, museums, concert halls, theatres and festivals.

Cobo's superlative presence helps the city become stronger in competing against other cities for convention space.

But you are right when you look at possible malls, there is always the idea of reuse of an older, elegant building, big or small to test the affluence, much like the pop-up Somerset Collection days.

I am sure it will happen in the next five years, but to what scale, it is hard to tell. You can see from the comment son the Rutgers thread that folks from out of town can be blown away by the quality of downtown, the restaurants and so on. Detroiters are so used to not thinking of their city in these terms that it may be difficult to imagine a renewal in the tourism dept.

If you think about it, many cities around the world become tourist destinations through sheer concentrated effort by the powers that be to provide the structure and the amenities. Detroit has the bones, the culture, many amenities that make it a worthwhile destination in 2015.

I have to tip my hat to those who brought new stuff to the mix in the past 20 years, the casinos, the restaurants in unlikely locales, Wayne U investments, hotel and office bldg renovators, Gilbert's enterprises, even Ilitch deserves a certain praise for allocating time and effort to revivifying the business district. These equipments, these reinvestments are the foundation of a new economy in the central portion of the region, the heart of the metro.

I would say that beyond the need for retail options in the city proper, the transit question needs to be debated by its citizens. The need to reequip the city with the newest options would give the region a better advantage in competing for jobs and restoring the residential and commercial grid of Detroit. The possible future of this is in the hands of greater Detroit, and the suburban-urban equation is the only one that matters. But this is not to say that Detroit is unique in this, all major metros work this way, they all cooperate in giving access to the farther reaches of their respective regions.

[nain rouge]

Honestly, the idea that a pair of shoes or a coat or a chesterfield can be had by the click of a button is a lot more depressing than walking the aisles of a store, no matter where it is situated.

Stores aren't going anywhere, though we may see some stores move to more of a "showroom" model with tighter integration to the online experience. In fact, we're already seeing that to some extent, though it remains to be seen just how far retailers will really go in that direction.

What is definitely true, however, is that the retail experience is decentralizing. Consumers are increasingly losing interest in the traditional mall experience and retailers are finding it cheaper to rent out standalone or strip mall locations. More retail will even move back into downtowns eventually, though it'll be nothing like the "good old days".

America has been a country of extremes for too long now, from the mega-downtowns to the glut of mega-malls. The future looks to be more balanced as the country matures into the modern age. You'll still have a few malls, but the days of the neighborhood mall are numbered.

[Hermod]

More than the internet, I think the real threat to the malls is Penneys, Sears, or both going bankrupt leaving existing malls with one or two empty anchor stores.

[nain rouge]

It's the internet and the death of malls that is shellacking companies like Sears. It all goes hand in hand. The malls are going down just like the downtowns went down.

[canuck]

I think that honestly there can be no substitute for shopping in a real space with real items to check out. Not only can you as a consumer scan for details, quality before you buy, but there is a whole other level of commitment when somebody sells you something firsthand.


There may be new ways of showing wares in a showroom space but does that not equate to the same thing? I can't imagine a time where retail disappears to give way wholly to online shopping.

Ironically, as I write this, my son is teaming up with a whizzkid friend of his to buy stuff on the web for me; new computer parts that are much cheaper than the store bought kind. This again is in the area of electronics and once you know what you want it is easier than trying a sofa or a new pair of shoes.

Stores generally need to offer a lot of stuff to get the customer to buy something on impulse or no, but at least the variety will give the buyer a reason to buy. Okay, there may be doodads that make your shapely self modeled to design a specific item of clothing for you via the web, but is that the most desirable thing in the end? Is the experience of living out a purchase in a store not more pleasant?

Is the auto-driven automobile with a ton of sensors the most desirable to a consumer? I can think that yes, for safety's sake, if my car were able to stop to avoid something I can't possibly react to; fine.

Stores have become more focussed on lifestyle by adding cafés and whatnot to excite and provide an experience that virtuality purchasing cannot.

Movies have replaced Vaudeville, Ipods replaced walkmans, Tv fucked up movie theatres to a point where in the fifties, cinemas were destined to disappear. Radio is the grandaddy of modern media, and it is still there in spite of dozens of other alternatives. It's not that easy to decipher the possible outcomes from past experience in technology. But folks need to get out on errands, they need to see and feel what they buy, and they need to go out and just experience changes in their environment and flaunt a little fashion if they want to...

[nain rouge]

Again though, Canuck, I don't think many really believe physical stores are going away. It's just that the mall has seen its day. Box stores, strip malls and regional/specialty downtown shops are the wave of the future.

[canuck]

It's hard to predict the demise of the mall in the US or Canada when you see them happening all over Asia. The Walmarts of this world have a definite advantage over the old anchor stores of our passé suburban mega-malls. Their business model has been cutthroat in regard to employees and manufacturers, so their business grows parallel to an impoverishment of their consumer base. They are successful anchors when they are not the mall outright. Dollar stores are the newer Kresge's and Woolworths, the dime stores of yesteryear.

The high end stores big and small have become more important in many markets, the luxury segment has grown enormously for wealthy consumers. Who knows? I don't see the demise of our suburban malls, just a constant transformation in response to consumer trends. The latest I noticed was that the mall owners tend to kick out the tackier smaller stores in favor of more high-end international fashion chains. A small costume jewelery and watchseller was kicked out of a middle market suburban mall here to make way for a trendy global brand of store. The idea is that the trendy wealthy chains can update their operations quicker and therefore provide the excitement needed to attract customers.

[401don]

Our local suburban mall has lost almost all of its non-clothing stores - record stores, Sony tv store, bookstores, a games [[pool tables) store, etc. These were the stores that made it enjoyable to browse the mall, particularly for males. It is going to make it even more difficult for Sears to draw males in to look at their hard goods now.

[Midnight Rambler]

Malls work in Toronto and Montreal where they connect with office buildings, condo towers and metro or subway stations.

Malls work in Toronto and Montreal because those cities are less than 10% black. Show me a profitable mall in any North American city that is at least 60% black. [[Many of Baltimore's malls, for example, are on the brink of closure). Generally speaking the black demographic just does not make the income needed to keep their local malls profitable.

http://www.businessinsider.com/shopp...extinct-2014-1

[dtowncitylover]

Malls work in Toronto and Montreal because those cities are less than 10% black. Show me a profitable mall in any North American city that is at least 60% black. [[Many of Baltimore's malls, for example, are on the brink of closure). Generally speaking the black demographic just does not make the income needed to keep their local malls profitable.

http://www.businessinsider.com/shopp...extinct-2014-1

And there it is...

[313WX]

And there it is...

It's funny how that poster [[and a couple other police officers or former police officers) on this forum post blatantly racist crap like that, yet they feel entitled to respect for their work from the same folks they speak negatively of...

[[yeah, I went there!!!)

[Midnight Rambler]

It's funny how that poster [[and a couple other police officers or former police officers) on this forum post blatantly racist crap like that, yet they feel entitled to respect for their work from the same folks they speak negatively of...

[[yeah, I went there!!!)

You did go there, but all you came back with is a rebuttal that fails to rebut.

I never said blacks don't deserve a mall or should not be allowed to enter one--THAT would be racist--I've merely presented a point of fact as to why they fail in predominantly black cities.

[dtowncitylover]

You did go there, but all you came back with is a rebuttal that fails to rebut.

I never said blacks don't deserve a mall or should not be allowed to enter one--THAT would be racist--I've merely presented a point of fact as to why they fail in predominantly black cities.

Northland was doomed by Oakland, Somerset, and Twelve Oaks. The middle class and upper class black populations of Oak Park, Southfield, and Lathrup Village aren't big enough to support one mall that was built for a population size probably double or triple the area around it. Once Oakland and Twelve Oaks opened up, those white customers moved to those malls because they were closer.

I would say the malls in downtown Philly and New Orleans, both predominately black cities, have malls that service their downtowns well.

[Midnight Rambler]

I would say the malls in downtown Philly and New Orleans, both predominately black cities, have malls that service their downtowns well.

Perhaps but the demographics [[Philly is about 44% black, New Orleans 60.2% black) suggest their days are numbered.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/30/news...l?iid=obinsite

[Gistok]

One of the things I always shake my head at is the big difference now between Europe and the USA.... as far as shopping habits. Have we become just a 2 tier society... rich and poor... Somerset and Walmart?

I look at the European model... and their department stores appear to be doing OK.

For example.... Graz is Austria's 2nd largest city after Vienna... just 300,000 people, with 600,000 in the metro area. And yet its' historic city center still has their traditional department stores... such as this one... the largest... over 100 year old KASTNER & ÖHLER... this German language quick video will remind you of everything that you wish we had in downtown Detroit... but no longer do... [[even an attached parking structure)...

https://www.behance.net/gallery/Kastner-Ohler/11354551

Has our lifestyle and quality of life been degraded so much worse than Europe??

Have we actually become the Koyyanisqatsi from the art film... that our life is out of balance?

[hortonz]

And there it is...

The reason malls work in cities like Toronto and Montreal has nothing to do with race and everything to do with disposable income. The sad fact is, aside from Quicken Loans, Detroit has nothing in the way of a financial base. All of Detroit's biggest financial institutions have their head offices in other cities. We live in an era when finance, not manufacturing, is the key driver of the national and global economy. Financial institutions generate enormous amounts of disposable income and they tend to cluster together in a few key cities like New York or Toronto. Otherwise, malls don't work or only survive by taking business away from existing retail districts. Windsor's Devonshire Mall thrived by poaching business away from older business districts like downtown and Ottawa street in the 70's and 80's and University and Tecumseh Mall in the 90's.

[G-DDT]

As an old-fashioned dude, I agree with canuck: there is no need to entirely dispense of something to make way for something else [[streetcars? why not? bring em' back I say-how very Crumb-Zemeckis of me.). Malls to me have always been a love-hate deal [[yeah, I still love the original "Dawn of the Dead"). I worked in one particular one far too many times and still recall when the malls had fancy restaurants in them or in the department stores [[imagine a bar-restraurant in a mall, where you can sit at a barstool and tip back a few-we had them back in the mid-'90s.-for your shopping convenience.). The storefront ideal in downtown would not be implausible. Sure as we had Hudson's, Kresge's, and loads of wig, suit, and shoe stores.

[hortonz]

I want to make one other point about malls working in cities like Toronto and Montreal. Unlike Detroit, those cities have enormous political clout and receive the lion's share of federal dollars and jobs. If a mall owner has trouble attracting tenants in those cities they can always turn to the government, which would rather keep employees clustered in places like Toronto where they pay exorbitant rates to lease space than move jobs to places like Windsor where rent is dirt-cheap and the cost of living is a fraction of what it is in Toronto. I'll bet dollars to donuts that same situation applies to the U.S.

[wolverine]

I want to make one other point about malls working in cities like Toronto and Montreal. Unlike Detroit, those cities have enormous political clout and receive the lion's share of federal dollars and jobs. If a mall owner has trouble attracting tenants in those cities they can always turn to the government, which would rather keep employees clustered in places like Toronto where they pay exorbitant rates to lease space than move jobs to places like Windsor where rent is dirt-cheap and the cost of living is a fraction of what it is in Toronto. I'll bet dollars to donuts that same situation applies to the U.S.

No it doesn't apply to the US. The government could provide a 100% subsidy on 3 years of rent to a retailer to move in a downtown mall and they wouldn't do it....at least not anymore.

Retailers want sales, proximity to similar retailers, and good mall management.

[Midnight Rambler]

The reason malls work in cities like Toronto and Montreal has nothing to do with race and everything to do with disposable income.

^^^
...which has everything to do with race.