Detroit UAW 2 Tier Wage System

[313WX]

Classic case of how to use data 'creatively'.

Most folks when they speak of wages talk of talk about the number which is multiplied by hours to produce gross pay.

Then we get charts which use numbers which folks don't understand and the charts are not footnoted to provide clarity. Unless one understands 'labor costs' to mean something... which I don't understand ALL of what labor costs includes... It would be nice to know what items they are expensing to come up with that number.

$28 / hour is what I'd expected from a senior UAW worker. $58 / hour is what I'd expect from a senior engineer.

So this bar graph is suggesting that Ford is paying their automobile workers what they would be paying their engineers.

And, of course, if automobile workers are paid the same as mechanical engineers they are over paid, but... there is some creative usage of statistics going on...

Not even Senior Engineers make $58/hr in Metro Detroit.

IF they work for the Big 3, they probably make in the ball park of $100,000 in base pay on average [[which is about $45-$50/hr).

[Willi]

People need to READ, READ, READ
-- before they respond

It was printed clearly, distinctly, in English
That the wage graph INCLUDED the whole enchilada of compensation to a UAW worker

Again, for those that missed it, blew over it



Click on it, open the image, enlarge it, etc.

There is no magic, no manipulation, just facts
They make an f''ing shitload WITH compensation

You, the taxpayers, of America,
pay that compensation package for the UAW
______________________________________________



No wonder the boys in Muskegon, MI
told the UAW
to take a hike and never come back.
They want to work, everyday, in peace,
not price themselves out of a job !
UAW actually LOST the vote. Workers said NO
---- and that happened now, in Michigan.

[Wesley Mouch]

Classic case of how to use data 'creatively'.

Most folks when they speak of wages talk of talk about the number which is multiplied by hours to produce gross pay.

Then we get charts which use numbers which folks don't understand and the charts are not footnoted to provide clarity. Unless one understands 'labor costs' to mean something... which I don't understand ALL of what labor costs includes... It would be nice to know what items they are expensing to come up with that number.
...snip...

Hourly wage is the rate of pay. The actual effective hourly includes premiums such as shift premiums, overtime, doubletime, holiday pay, etc.

Total compensation includes wages plus the cost of benefits. This isn't some imaginary figure used to inflate the cost of workers. Its a very rational calculation of actual cost, so you can understand and manage your costs.

Labor costs are the cost of labor, including benefits.

It is very widely accepted that labor costs including benefits, because they 'cost' the company money in direct proportion to labor hours. The only reason some don't like reporting these number is because it clearly shows that auto workers are quite well paid -- even today under the brutal Obama/Bush labor regime.

For auto workers, wages seem to represent about 1/2 of total compensation.

You ask what's in labor cost? Nothing very shocking. If its a direct cost of labor, then its included. Otherwise it is general overhead.

Employer paid social security and medicare [[~7%), cost of health care benefits, pension or 401k contributions, disability insurance, unemployment taxes, non job-related training reimbursement, most any other contract or g

Usually, you couldn't include indirect and overhead costs, such as the cost of payroll processing, grievances, holiday parties or gifts, HR overhead, cost of equipment, training, job-related education, accounting, shrinkage.

When the hourly cost of an employee to GM is reported as $58/hr., you can probably trust that figure. And its not at all deceitful. Your suggestiong that there's some chicanery going on here seems unfounded to me. That's not at all an unreasonable total labor cost for a unionized worker.

An honorable McDonald's worker might make $8/hr., but their total labor cost to McDonalds is probably closer to $12/hr. In a unionized environment I wored in, we used 49% as the non-wage benefit cost. That the UAW has a 100% premium is consistent with what I know about the type and depth of benefits available to UAW members.

[emu steve]

People need to READ, READ, READ
-- before they respond

It was printed clearly, distinctly, in English
That the wage graph INCLUDED the whole enchilada of compensation to a UAW worker

Again, for those that missed it, blew over it



Click on it, open the image, enlarge it, etc.

There is no magic, no manipulation, just facts
They make an f''ing shitload WITH compensation

You, the taxpayers, of America,
pay that compensation package for the UAW
______________________________________________



No wonder the boys in Muskegon, MI
told the UAW
to take a hike and never come back.
They want to work, everyday, in peace,
not price themselves out of a job !
UAW actually LOST the vote. Workers said NO
---- and that happened now, in Michigan.

Sir, your bar graph does NOT have any explanatory text indicating that the average hourly labor costs are not average hourly wages. That is a very important difference which needs to be spelled out.

I still maintain without any explanatory text it is apples and oranges. Matter of fact, the reader does not know what compromises average hourly labor costs unless explained to him.

Folks just see a big number on a graph.

[Willi]

Damn, that's downright funny - see above post
Haha ho ha ho haha

The Very first line =
compensation structure




Why do you think I included that in the pic ?
Especially when I can crop/cut/customize a pic
For folks to read it, maybe........

What does it say between 29 and 30 of the text
.......hmmmmmmmmmm..... ?????

Now go to the International UAW webpage and explain why they need to build a "" strike bank"" fund AND jacked up dues 25% for members

[mikefmich]

Outside of signing bonuses, performance bonuses, and small profit sharing checks, we received no raises to our hourly rate. With inflation at 2% per year over 9 years, is a loss in income of 18% plus compounding interest.

Several plants have gone to the Alternative Work Schedule and some are forced to work a swing shift, [[Friday & Saturday evening shift, and Monday & Tuesday morning shift).

Others also have a job because we sacrificed our wages and benefits.

Fully aware of the bonuses y'all got since the last contract. Also fully aware you tossed the retirees under the bus then too. Walter must be spinning in his grave. Two tiered wages broke his number one golden rule, and the membership bought it.

Well, you may have but can assure you I never did. Score a grand slam for the big three.

[Warrenite84]

Hi mikefmich, On April 28,2009, the membership of my Local had a meeting with General Hollifield and other union officers. We were told that either we vote in the two-tier wage provision among other concessions or the company was closing the doors. We were fully aware of the scope of the give-backs, but gave in to fight another day. They have been demanding more and more ever since.

We as members of the UAW continue to be vilified and lumped into some lazy, spoiled, overcompensated stereotypical pot. All this for wanting to restore some of what we lost. The great majority of us work very hard at our jobs. If we are dissatisfied with the company or union, we do not pass it on to the customer.

Truthfully, my last bonus trailed far behind what the other two received. Uncle Sam got a nice piece of it too.

[Ltdave]

i remember hearing about how the UAW members were such HORRID people because they got time and a half for anything over 8 hours. pay coming from a private company...

yet customs/border protection and border patrol get DOUBLE TIME for anything over 8 on the TAXPAYER DIME...

the UAW had a signed and ratified contract in 2007[[?) and in 2010 [[maybe it was '10) and in 2011 the company told them your healthcare and other issues were being re-written and they had no choice but to ratify this new contract or as stated, the jobs were gone...

Chrysler especially was told to partner up with another company after the capitalists [[cerberus) took what they could and left the company nearly broke. they were forced to partner with FIAT and from what i see, Fiat is the only party that is benefitting because Chrysler has been shoring up crappy financial issues with the new owners. hmmm. thats the same thing that happened when Daimler laid claim to their $9 Billion dollars...

lots and lots of company bigwigs getting rich off the labors of the line workers who as has been mentioned, dont take out their displeasure with the company on their product...

[Willi]

Which other union in the USA has been "" propped- up"", "" subsidized"", via the taxpayers of America ?? ONLY the UAW workers got special treatment

The past is gone, bye bye forever
Why does anyone feel entitled to what once was..

Un-skilled labor is not worth $25/hr with another $25 each hour for perpetuity payments to workers.
Wake the hell up, it is 2015 competition in an international world market of manufacturing

Are you reading what I read, the truth, the facts ..
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014...62650268680454

President Obama did not bail out the auto industry. He bailed out the United Auto Workers.

[emu steve]

Which other union in the USA has been "" propped- up"", "" subsidized"", via the taxpayers of America ?? ONLY the UAW workers got special treatment

The past is gone, bye bye forever
Why does anyone feel entitled to what once was..

Un-skilled labor is not worth $25/hr with another $25 each hour for perpetuity payments to workers.
Wake the hell up, it is 2015 competition in an international world market of manufacturing

Are you reading what I read, the truth, the facts ..
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014...62650268680454

President Obama did not bail out the auto industry. He bailed out the United Auto Workers.

I remember when the WSJ was a reputable company, conservative but reputable.

Now it is owned by Ruppert Murdoch of sleazy tabloid journalism fame.

I do not read the opinion pages of Ruppie's paper.

[emu steve]

Taxpayers bailed out Auto Corporations willingly and they have no one to blame but themselves.
There were ZERO protests in the streets

And there was no need for any angst or protests.

The net amount spent was trivial given the size of the U.S. budget and might have had some of the best 'cost/benefit analysis' monies ever spent by the government.

If GM had failed the entire U.S. auto industry including companies not named GM as well as the whole supplier networks too. Failure of the domestic automobile industry would have been horrific for the U.S. economy [[and other economies where their factories product cars or parts for say GM).

Remember when Obama took office the country was losing say 750K job a month. If GM shuttered then probably Chrysler would have closed and then part suppliers would have closed. [[part suppliers were just hanging on and couldn't afford to lose say 25 - 50% of their customers).

I had a GM automobile in December 2008. I was at the dealers getting an oil change watching President Bush guarantee monies to GM. The owner of the dealer was also watching knowing that GM's future was on the line. They were not insolvent. They were penniless. Being penniless is worse than a terrible balance sheet. It means you are literally broke and worse then bankrupt.

We would be importing cars from other countries as our supply of new domestically produced cars slow to a trickle and then cease to exist.

Me thinks you are an ideologue.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Think about how this country would be if we gave Willi the keys to the car.

[Wesley Mouch]

Hi mikefmich, On April 28,2009, the membership of my Local had a meeting with General Hollifield and other union officers. We were told that either we vote in the two-tier wage provision among other concessions or the company was closing the doors. We were fully aware of the scope of the give-backs, but gave in to fight another day. They have been demanding more and more ever since.

We as members of the UAW continue to be vilified and lumped into some lazy, spoiled, overcompensated stereotypical pot. All this for wanting to restore some of what we lost. The great majority of us work very hard at our jobs. If we are dissatisfied with the company or union, we do not pass it on to the customer.

Truthfully, my last bonus trailed far behind what the other two received. Uncle Sam got a nice piece of it too.

Why does it seem that Union members take any criticism as an 'attack'?

I know UAW members, and they're all fine, hard-working people. But this doesn't mean that I can have an opinion about our social policy towards unions.

Me? I think the high wages of the UAW are one of the causes of Detroit's decline. That's a big social issue. And you are free to disagree. Unions regularly say the 'created' the middle class. Perhaps true, but after its creation they stifled it with rigid work rules.

You don't have to agree, but you should be open to hearing criticism and consider responding with ideas, rather than counter-attacks on anyone who thinks we can structure or social support of workers better.

[mikefmich]

Warrenite84, safe to assume I know which of the 3 you worked for.
You said something key there about the more we gave in, the more they wanted. I never bought for a minute my Ford local claims the place would be shut down if we didn't accept the concession contract offers presented over recent decades.

Hence I voted nay on every contract for many years.

The automakers make obscene profits in their good years. One thing I always thought good was profit sharing. They do well, we do well. They don't do well, then we don't share.

The 3 complain of wanting more profits, yet the mismanagement and waste I observed over the years was mind boggling. Take care of business better rather than put the full responsibility on the backs of the workers.

Btw, I retired 8 yrs. ago Monday. My income has not only not gone up one cent, I'm taking in $50- less a month now, then I did when I started. Doesn't sound like much, but when retired every penny counts. Now make sure us dinosaurs get $75-100 pension increase ok?

[Willi]

The next time someone thinks 30 BILLION dollars $$$ of taxpayer money is trivial...please rethink that position



A lump of coal for christmas.......

[313WX]

Reading this thread, it's sad to know that some people would have preferred for Michigan to completely collapse instead of the government intervening...

[Willi]

The USA is Not Exactly a place of true democracy, fueled by open competition in the marketplace.

It is a country of Special Interests

What happened to letting the
BEST managed, BEST product,
win in the marketplace of the USA ???

Now everyone's grandkids have to pay down the Federal Debt incurred by the UAW to the tune of $_30 BILLION_dollars......that's not nice...............



Can you say Greedy Grinches Got Greased ....

[Willi]

Yeah, I called the UAW greedy

Attachment 25339

Enlarge the pic, it explains a lot about the UAW

http://www.foxbusiness.com/governmen...ts-1969452526/

Labor unions are nonprofits, and they rake in millions of dollars a year tax-free in member dues. Unions don’t have to pay federal or state income taxes on member dues or donations, nor property taxes on much of their real estate.

The church of greed, we want more, each year

[Kevgoblue]

Labor unions are nonprofits, and they rake in millions of dollars a year tax-free in member dues. Unions don’t have to pay federal or state income taxes on member dues or donations, nor property taxes on much of their real estate.

The church of greed, we want more, each year

The NFL is nonprofit and operates with all those tax loopholes too. Which is worse?

[emu steve]

Reading this thread, it's sad to know that some people would have preferred for Michigan to completely collapse instead of the government intervening...

Indeed. And it isn't the first time Americans have taken such a short sighted view.

Wasn't NYC bailed out? Wasn't there a 'drop dead' attitude toward NYC in 1975 by the Ford administration. I believe that 'drop dead' came from commentary on Ford's threat to veto a federal bailout of NYC. Today NYC is a great American city.

We can't [[couldn't) afford to let the domestic automobile industry go under, the state of Michigan, Detroit, etc.

One has to remember how fragile the economy of MI and the United States was in fall of 2008 and 2009. It was not a strong economy with a weak sector [[automobiles). It was a national and international economy on life support.

As we have learned when foreign countries literally disintegrate, nothing good comes of it. I believe we learned through the Marshall Plan is that rebuilding a country [[or city, such as Detroit) is critical because the other options are infinitely worse.

One thing needs to be said, bi-partisan, about TARP and the auto-bailout. TARP was done under President Bush with the help of Democrats. Bush extended GM a guarantee [[or similar) in December 2008 so they would not have to shutter and President-elect Obama could develop his strategy for saving GM and C.

The Bush administration knew what the bottom line for the financial sector and domestic automobile industry.

[Willi]

There is NO free money for bailing out anyone.

I would rather have Clean Water, Great Roads and Bridges, and a solid Infrastructure for ALL citizens of the USA - versus paying up the whazoo for the UAW with taxes

Companies fail everyday in the USA and they could have restructured a dozen different ways. They took the easy way out and punched us in the mouth with more taxes/debt

[Ltdave]

how much damage was done to Chrysler when Daimler helped themselves to $9 Billion dollars, then dumped them off to Cerberus who did nothing but strip the company of money and manpower before THEY dumped them off to [[i dont remember who "bought" them) after that?

im not trying to be argumentative but could those actions have had any impact on the solvency of Chrysler? Chrysler HAD LOTS of money in the bank and on hand before the venture capitalists came to town...

i ask since this thread has flowed away from the subject of two-tier pay....

[Wesley Mouch]

Merry Christmast to all!

I remain unconvinced that a true bankruptcy for the Big 2 would have killed American manufacturing. In Tesla, we see that a new car company is possible. If Musk had the chance to buy the assets of the Big 3 without the legacy costs, I think the final result for America might have been better.

Now a UAW member whose pensions goes to zero probably wouldn't think so. But it would truly be a solution to the Labor Income Inequality where UAW members get disproportionate benefit compared to most workers and are effectively a labor 1% who use the rules to keep their money from the others.

What else can you call a 2-Tier wage system but Income Inequality.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Willi is nothing more than a insensitive troll, that wishes nothing but doom, towards any one that works for, or is affiliated with the UAW. The UAW isn't the only union in the US, so I guess he's against ALL unions. Unions helped create the middle class, and helped other occupations achieve the pay and benefits they now receive. It's amazing he seems to think the UAW is at fault for the failing infrastructure, crumbling bridges, and polluted water, and then he posts these so called stats that's suppose to substantiate his views. B.S.

[Willi]

The thread remains focused on the 2 Tier sys. since this what the UAW is terrified of.
Taking it all down to the lowest wage.
Rebuilding, rebirth, evolution forward for Detroit
might let the UAW die entirely into RTW for MI

Fear mongering, hype, hysteria, is what large corporations do best in the USA.
Few would buy a car from a bankrupt corp
and that's okay, because others exist

Research, research, research vs. Media Hype
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danbigma...n-u-s-history/

GM used Bankruptcy Code Section 363,
which allows a company to sell assets
under a court-approved sale.
--General Motors filed for bankruptcy
in New York, with $82 billion in assets
and $173 billion in liabilities
---Taxpayers left holding the bag

USA needs to move forward, not backward