Detroit UAW 2 Tier Wage System

[Willi]

UAW in Oshawa, Ontario on the way out
Plant will cease to exist near future

UAW has no power other than a strike
Leading negotiations with intent to strike
is a zero win strategy .

Learn Spanish, move south, live cheaper

[Wesley Mouch]

UAW in Oshawa, Ontario on the way out
Plant will cease to exist near future

UAW has no power other than a strike
Leading negotiations with intent to strike
is a zero win strategy .

Learn Spanish, move south, live cheaper

If I were the UAW and the labor movement, I'd agree to reduce job classifications, and give a lot of management back to the owners. Use that to get more people organized, because the Union would not be a threat to corporations, but someone they can work with.

For too long, its been an adversarial relationship, based on Labor extracting maximum benefits in the short term, but crippling the industry with legacy costs in the future. In the end, it collapses -- as we are seeing.

Unions are now dominating in the public sector because there, the trough for new money has been endless -- with a few exceptions like Detroit. Smart organizations like Oakland County are adjusting their labor appropriately. Other places they're just biding their time hoping that everything can stay the same in the future.

[emu steve]

UAW in Oshawa, Ontario on the way out
Plant will cease to exist near future

UAW has no power other than a strike
Leading negotiations with intent to strike
is a zero win strategy .

Learn Spanish, move south, live cheaper

Is this person a 'frequent poster'?

Does he [[or she) post on other subjects?

If not [[frequent poster who posts on many topics) could he or she be a paid troll?

Do organizations like Americans for Prosperity pay people to make posts for them [[what we might call paid trolling)?

[Willi]

Look in the mirror EMU
Does the reflection appear ugly/troll

I am a frequent poster, many self starting, free thinking threads, original thought process, ZERO pay or compensation

Look in any auto blog, industry magazine, or general manufacturing info to see what I post has a true ring towards it

What should we label you EMU
Pro-Union Steward scared shirtless

I actually have worked in Mexico on the auto manufacturing lines, facilities, supplier operations and been involved with numerous "strike banks " of parts to keep operations going regardless of what the UAW "desired ". It is called crisis management in business circles.
Logistics is key to auto manufacturing.

My advice, read more, think more, and avoid the mass hysteria and mob effect of a UAW crowd
The vehicles get built regardless.

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...My advice, read more, think more, and avoid the mass hysteria and mob effect of a UAW crowd
The vehicles get built regardless.

Good advice. The number of cars purchased worldwide [[and in the US) is relatively fixed. It is NOT changed by whether the UAW strikes. So they mostly just shoot themselves in the foot, while most of the non-UAW world just starts making more cars -- and smiles -- and laughs all the way to the bank.

[Willi]

Use your memory folks and research

The latest example is the $10 billion taxpayers will be asked to shell out to prop up the United Auto Workers' retiree health insurance program.

That provision is tucked deep into the bill passed by the House.

In effect, it would ask every taxpayer, regardless of whether they'll have health insurance coverage themselves after they retire — and most won't — to chip in to maintain the UAW's coverage, which even after the union's givebacks is still better than what the average American worker receives.

The helping hand is a recognition by Congress that the union's volunteer employee benefit association, or VEBA, can't possibly stay solvent if it is asked to cover all of the union workers taking early buyouts from the Detroit automakers.

So the union's supporters added language to the House's gargantuan health care bill that requires the federal government to pick up most of the cost of catastrophic claims for union retirees age 55 to 64.

NOT everyone loves the UAW -

http://www.heritage.org/research/tes...n-compensation

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Use your memory folks and research

The latest example is the $10 billion taxpayers will be asked to shell out to prop up the United Auto Workers' retiree health insurance program.

That provision is tucked deep into the bill passed by the House.

In effect, it would ask every taxpayer, regardless of whether they'll have health insurance coverage themselves after they retire — and most won't — to chip in to maintain the UAW's coverage, which even after the union's givebacks is still better than what the average American worker receives.

The helping hand is a recognition by Congress that the union's volunteer employee benefit association, or VEBA, can't possibly stay solvent if it is asked to cover all of the union workers taking early buyouts from the Detroit automakers.

So the union's supporters added language to the House's gargantuan health care bill that requires the federal government to pick up most of the cost of catastrophic claims for union retirees age 55 to 64.

NOT everyone loves the UAW -

http://www.heritage.org/research/tes...n-compensation

We've already observed that you don't. You bitch about the UAW and what the union reps get and what they pay workers, but I don't hear you railing on how much money the CEO's and other higher ups are raking in. Ford's Allen Mulally raked in 30 million last year. That's the REAL crime, but I guess that's ok in your book.

[emu steve]

Look in the mirror EMU
Does the reflection appear ugly/troll

I am a frequent poster, many self starting, free thinking threads, original thought process, ZERO pay or compensation

Look in any auto blog, industry magazine, or general manufacturing info to see what I post has a true ring towards it

What should we label you EMU
Pro-Union Steward scared shirtless

I actually have worked in Mexico on the auto manufacturing lines, facilities, supplier operations and been involved with numerous "strike banks " of parts to keep operations going regardless of what the UAW "desired ". It is called crisis management in business circles.
Logistics is key to auto manufacturing.

My advice, read more, think more, and avoid the mass hysteria and mob effect of a UAW crowd
The vehicles get built regardless.

Actually I'm an unpaid troll for the Ilitches. Lol.

What floats my boat, is the new arena project which is likely to be transformative for that area.

I came to this site a few years ago when talk of a new arena started to well up.

As for automobile production, UAW, etc. I don't have a dog in that fight. I'm a retired IT worker so these labor issues you refer don't directly effect me and never really have. I am not, however, willing to toss automobile workers under the bus in the name of corporate profits or cheaper automobiles. It isn't who I am...

I come to this site mostly for information and discussion about development projects as well as various assorted topics related to Detroit's future.

I was born and raised in suburban Detroit but spent some time [[few years) living and working in Detroit. I do have an undergraduate degree from Wayne State.

I haven't even lived in Michigan for 35 years. I got hired out of EMU to work in Washington.

Like many who have left Detroit or Michigan, I support it, their sports teams [[e.g., Tigers, Lions, etc.). I sincerely hope Detroit turns it around big time. GO LIONS, playoff bound!!

[Vic01]

Look in the mirror EMU
Does the reflection appear ugly/troll

I am a frequent poster, many self starting, free thinking threads, original thought process, ZERO pay or compensation

Look in any auto blog, industry magazine, or general manufacturing info to see what I post has a true ring towards it

What should we label you EMU
Pro-Union Steward scared shirtless

I actually have worked in Mexico on the auto manufacturing lines, facilities, supplier operations and been involved with numerous "strike banks " of parts to keep operations going regardless of what the UAW "desired ". It is called crisis management in business circles.
Logistics is key to auto manufacturing.

My advice, read more, think more, and avoid the mass hysteria and mob effect of a UAW crowd
The vehicles get built regardless.

Thank you...

[hortonz]

There is a belief among neo-conservatives that over-paid autoworkers and thier pliant bosses are solely to blame for the downfall of the Detroit Three. Nothing could be further from the truth. If we compare wages to expenses as a percentage, we find that the UAW has not priced its' members out of work and furthermore, if we look at car manufacturing on a global scale, we find that car companies that invest heavily in their employees through high wages and generous benefits are more likely to build better products and remain profitable over the long haul than companies that don't. If we can bail out Wall Street when they gamble recklessly there is no excuse for letting autoworkers in Detroit wither and die.

[Vic01]

Thanks to the rest of you too. I just hit this thread for the 1st time, and read through 50+ posts... It's got my vote for best thread on the board for December. A solid 5 Stars for entertainment value for sure

[Willi]

So 300 million taxpayers propping up the UAW is entertainment, like a comedy show on TV ?

It is a sad fact, they are subsidized
BILLIONS of dollars $$$$ by the federal gov



After getting all that, then they want to strike...

[Wesley Mouch]

We've already observed that you don't. You bitch about the UAW and what the union reps get and what they pay workers, but I don't hear you railing on how much money the CEO's and other higher ups are raking in. Ford's Allen Mulally raked in 30 million last year. That's the REAL crime, but I guess that's ok in your book.

Mr. Mullaly created wealth. That he got a large share doesn't bother me. Our CEO pay is broken, but its private enterprise and only affect those who voluntarily choose to own thei stock. I don't really care what Ford pays its employees.

The problem with the Government funded Union benefits is that it violates the equal protection clause. Where's the 'equal protection' chorus? How on earth is this 'equality'? Its actually a funding mechanism for a special interest group that doesn't look like America.

[313WX]

The problem with the Government funded Union benefits is that it violates the equal protection clause. Where's the 'equal protection' chorus? How on earth is this 'equality'? Its actually a funding mechanism for a special interest group that doesn't look like America.

The UAW is not the government, and thus the equal protection clause does not apply to it.

EDIT: And how is the UAW "government funded?"

[Wesley Mouch]

The UAW is not the government, and thus the equal protection clause does not apply to it.

EDIT: And how is the UAW "government funded?"

See above. The GOVERNMENT is funding UAW retiree health benefits.

[313WX]

See above. The GOVERNMENT is funding UAW retiree health benefits.

Using that logic, you could also say the government is funding the ridiculous salaries of Alan Mullaly/Mark Fields [[Ford received a 6 billion dollar bailout from the backdoor), Mary Barra and whoever's the CEO of Chrysler now.

Yet, you're not expressing outrage about that.

[Willi]

People should be outraged about the UAW
--- but media in the D squashes the story

http://www.heritage.org/research/tes...n-compensation




Snubbed again, workers in Muskegon Michigan
say no to the UAW in their facility
http://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/i...loyees_at.html

[Wesley Mouch]

Using that logic, you could also say the government is funding the ridiculous salaries of Alan Mullaly/Mark Fields [[Ford received a 6 billion dollar bailout from the backdoor), Mary Barra and whoever's the CEO of Chrysler now.

Yet, you're not expressing outrage about that.

I was outraged.

Defending the UAW by complaining that others aren't outraged about other problems is no defense.

So are you OK with UAW being given taxpayer money, or aren't you -- regardless of what else happened in the world. Or is what you are saying that because Mullaly/Field indirectly got well compensated, it justifies the UAW getting cash while others were denied their bailout? Why the UAW and not the Detroit GRS retirees?

[emu steve]

Instead of citing Heritage foundation, I'd like to cite myself.

Some years ago, I came up with a tripod [[3-legged) approach to corporations and what their functions are essentially reflecting various stakeholders in a corporation and its activities.

1). Owners - they are represented by management and the board of directors.

2). Customers - customers have a right to a good or service which has value [[no snake oil, please) and is safe when used as directed. Lot of products have safety issues, e.g., GM issues with the ignition switches, the current airbag issues, etc. Customers' interests are usually championed by government [[various agencies such as Food and Drug, NHTSA, etc.). Also in our political system courts are there for the aggrieved, e.g., defective automobiles, bad drugs [[e.g., the compounding issue from the Mass. compounding company).

3). Workers. Workers should be entitled to fair wages and benefits and safe working conditions with the right to organize [[the right to organize has been established under Federal law since the 1930s, I believe. I believe it is also considered a universal right by the U.N. and the Catholic Church also believes it is a human right). Workers can be represented by unions and also protected by such federal government agencies, e.g., Department of Labor, e.g., OSHA. In our political system, the court system can also protect a worker who feels he or she has been wronged.

ECONOMICALLY, different focus, workers and customers are in an interesting role. A worker is both a worker and a customer, he may also be an 'owner'. The big thing which Henry Ford learned a hundred years ago, is that after a worker is done working he leaves work and becomes a consumer, be it groceries for his family, clothing, housing, vehicle, etc.

A poorly paid worker becomes a limited consumer. Indeed, that is the problem we are having today in our society. I believe Steve Rattner indicated 5M manufacturing jobs were lost in the previous decade [[2000-2009). Those employees typically ended up with lower paying jobs. And that represents a real problem in the middle class. We still have the well paid, [[e.g.doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc.) and the lowly paid [[e.g., fast food workers, etc.). That hasn't changed. What has changed is the person who used to make 25 - 30 / hour and now makes 15 or 20. That is completely devasting to that group.

[Willi]

This is entirely whacked
And quite Unrealistic for 2015



Vehicles do not, should not, have to cost,
30 or 40 thousand dollars.
Economic efficiency matters for realistic pricing

[Wesley Mouch]

...A poorly paid worker becomes a limited consumer. Indeed, that is the problem we are having today in our society. ...

Except that the auto worked at the UAW is hardly poorly paid, even today. See by Willi.

Your arguments have some merit, but I think you take them too far. Sure, workers have the right to organize. They no doubt would also have the freedom of disassocation too [[RTW).

There is no doubt that the world of labor is in turmoil. But from the POV of the 3rd world, that turmoil is welcome progress. From the POV of the developed world, the inclusion of the rest of the world's workers seems harmful and unfair.

There's a question of how the world should handle the expansion of the middle class to Brazil, India, China, and Nigeria.

I do accept the argument that there's a place for organized labor. That isn't in doubt. The question to me is whether American Unionism has all the right answers. I agree with the need. But I don't agree with all of the tenants of our organized labor. It should not be a club for the 1% of lucky workers who have employers who are pretty much forced to comply [[Big 3, government, health care). It should be a force for all workers.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

This is entirely whacked
And quite Unrealistic for 2015



Vehicles do not, should not, have to cost,
30 or 40 thousand dollars.
Economic efficiency matters for realistic pricing

They have to charge that much to offset the ridiculous salaries and generous stock options and benefits of the CEO's and other high ranking executives of the "Big 3". Similar to the $12.00 you pay for a 10 oz beer at a Lions game.

[emu steve]

This is entirely whacked
And quite Unrealistic for 2015



Vehicles do not, should not, have to cost,
30 or 40 thousand dollars.
Economic efficiency matters for realistic pricing

I assume those salary number seem high because of all of the fringes and taxes.

Health insurance is very expensive.

And taxes, doesn't the employer pay 8% as their share of F.I.C.A.

I wouldn't be surprised if that Ford worker 'making $58' / hour actually sees $30 - 35 on his pay stub as his hourly wage.

[313WX]

I assume those salary number seem high because of all of the fringes and taxes.

Health insurance is very expensive.

And taxes, doesn't the employer pay 8% as their share of F.I.C.A.

I wouldn't be surprised if that Ford worker 'making $58' / hour actually sees $30 - 35 on his pay stub as his hourly wage.

More like $28/hr for the most senior UAW workers [[last I heard).

[emu steve]

More like $28/hr for the most senior UAW workers [[last I heard).

Classic case of how to use data 'creatively'.

Most folks when they speak of wages talk of talk about the number which is multiplied by hours to produce gross pay.

Then we get charts which use numbers which folks don't understand and the charts are not footnoted to provide clarity. Unless one understands 'labor costs' to mean something... which I don't understand ALL of what labor costs includes... It would be nice to know what items they are expensing to come up with that number.

$28 / hour is what I'd expected from a senior UAW worker. $58 / hour is what I'd expect from a senior engineer.

So this bar graph is suggesting that Ford is paying their automobile workers what they would be paying their engineers.

And, of course, if automobile workers are paid the same as mechanical engineers they are over paid, but... there is some creative usage of statistics going on...