Today's Action In Campus Martius [Ferguson/Eric Garner Protest]

[Honky Tonk]

This is the actual "toy" he was carrying.



Call it a toy all you want. If it was pointed at YOU, you'd piss your pants thinking it was the real deal. Anyone would.

I guess @ this point, my only question would be WTF was wrong with that kid?

[Pam]

I guess @ this point, my only question would be WTF was wrong with that kid?

For the millionith time- he did not point it at the police. They never saw it. They shot him when they claimed he was reaching for his waistband. Anyway if the sight of a gun makes you piss your pants, maybe you shouldn't be on the police force.

[TKshreve]

This is the actual "toy" he was carrying.



Call it a toy all you want. If it was pointed at YOU, you'd piss your pants thinking it was the real deal. Anyone would.

That's fuc*ed up, really.

Having been raised properly and with active parental attention, I knew at a very young age you should not be in the proximity of cops carrying something like that. It spells trouble. Feel free to add into the fact that this kid was probably in a neighborhood that gets extra special attention from the law enforcement. Do people in these areas have to tread lighter than spritzy suburbs? Yes. The world is not fair...... another item impressed on me from a young age.

Whether it was in plain sight or not, whether he reached for it or not, the fact remains the kid put himself in harms way through his own choices. It would be great if he wasn't shot dead. It would be better if the police were not put into positions having to make gut decisions in a moments flash - surrounded by these types of circumstances.

And why was the kid reaching for his waistband with guns pointed at him?

[Wesley Mouch]

That's fuc*ed up, really.

Having been raised properly and with active parental attention, I knew at a very young age you should not be in the proximity of cops carrying something like that. It spells trouble. Feel free to add into the fact that this kid was probably in a neighborhood that gets extra special attention from the law enforcement. Do people in these areas have to tread lighter than spritzy suburbs? Yes. The world is not fair...... another item impressed on me from a young age.

Whether it was in plain sight or not, whether he reached for it or not, the fact remains the kid put himself in harms way through his own choices. It would be great if he wasn't shot dead. It would be better if the police were not put into positions having to make gut decisions in a moments flash - surrounded by these types of circumstances.

And why was the kid reaching for his waistband with guns pointed at him?

Kids don't make choices. Kids are dumb. If you don't know this, you haven't been around children.

I don't blame the kid. He was just being a kid.

I blame the parents, cops, society, gun manufacturer, and everyone else. The kid was being stupid. No surprise there.

The question that we are debating isn't whether kids can do stupid stuff. And there's no question the cop was wrong about the gun. It wasn't real.

What we're debating is whether the cop should have acted better. Yea. Probably. But he didn't. He had a quick call to make, and he made a quick call. Turned out wrong. Does that make him a criminal? Or does that make him a human being.

Should all cops be perfect? Should they have perfect training? Should they always make the best decisions? Yep. But then you go into the world, and some stupid kids has a gun.

Do we lock up the cop? Are we so sure that we wouldn't have done the same thing, in that same situation, that we can condemn another person? That's the question.

[Willi]

Lock up the parents, They are legally responsible for what their son does.

Use the existing laws, and stop protecting parents who put children into the world.
Create a kid, take responsibility for it.

[gazhekwe]

The nearby security video showed the cop's story was false. Look it up. He did not reach for his waistband or point the gun at anyone. Four seconds is all it took. Bad cop, no donut.

[Willi]

And if that kid had emptied the clip of live ammo , killing people as he "played" ,the cop would be a hero. Everything has 2 sides

[Wesley Mouch]

The nearby security video showed the cop's story was false. Look it up. He did not reach for his waistband or point the gun at anyone. Four seconds is all it took. Bad cop, no donut.

Haven't found a good source on this. Police Chief early on said he " the boy pulled the fake weapon – which was lacking an orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle – from his waistband. Tomba said the boy had not pointed the gun at police."

Do you have a good source on the assertion that the gun was holstered, not 'pulled'?

[Bham1982]

For the millionith time- he did not point it at the police. They never saw it. They shot him when they claimed he was reaching for his waistband. Anyway if the sight of a gun makes you piss your pants, maybe you shouldn't be on the police force.

The police followed proper procedures. If you're saying those procedures should be changed, and the police have to wait to be shot at before responding to an armed threat, then fine [[ridiculous premise but fine), but you will no longer have a professional police force of any type.

Of course, if this kid killed everyone else at the community center before the police took him down, the same people like you would be ripping the police for not stopping the kid before he committed a tragedy.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say "police can't shoot anyone unless shot at" and "police have the obligation to take deadly action to save the lives of civilians or themselves". It's one or the other. Police absolutely have the right to shoot an armed civilian not following orders and pointing a gun or reaching for a gun in waistband.

[Pam]

The police followed proper procedures. If you're saying those procedures should be changed, and the police have to wait to be shot at before responding to an armed threat, then fine [[ridiculous premise but fine), but you will no longer have a professional police force of any type.

Of course, if this kid killed everyone else at the community center before the police took him down, the same people like you would be ripping the police for not stopping the kid before he committed a tragedy.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say "police can't shoot anyone unless shot at" and "police have the obligation to take deadly action to save the lives of civilians or themselves". It's one or the other. Police absolutely have the right to shoot an armed civilian not following orders and pointing a gun or reaching for a gun in waistband.

There was no report of shots fired or an active shooter situation. They absolutely had a choice on how to handle this. Stop farther back and address the boy by radio for example. They gave him no time to comply with any order. Why can't some people just admit when the police fuck up?

[Bham1982]

There was no report of shots fired or an active shooter situation. They absolutely had a choice on how to handle this.

No, they didn't. Cops aren't supposed to wait for dead bodies before they start protecting the public.

I will never get your type of attitude. There is absolutely nothing the police could have done to make you happy. [[and I'm not really a huge fan of the police- I feel they're undertrained and overstep their boundaries way too much). If they did nothing and this kid killed others there would be articles on "racist police do nothing as crazed gunman kills black children".

Panicked reports of a gun-toting individual in a public place with children in the most violent part of Cleveland, then the police arrive, the individual doesn't comply with police orders, and the result is deadly force. The police did the right thing, and yet again, people are missing the point [[horrible parents and their feral children), preferring to blame police [[especially if white) and ignore the actual problem.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

No, they didn't. Cops aren't supposed to wait for dead bodies before they start protecting the public.

I will never get your type of attitude. There is absolutely nothing the police could have done to make you happy. [[and I'm not really a huge fan of the police- I feel they're undertrained and overstep their boundaries way too much). If they did nothing and this kid killed others there would be articles on "racist police do nothing as crazed gunman kills black children".

Panicked reports of a gun-toting individual in a public place with children in the most violent part of Cleveland, then the police arrive, the individual doesn't comply with police orders, and the result is deadly force. The police did the right thing, and yet again, people are missing the point [[horrible parents and their feral children), preferring to blame police [[especially if white) and ignore the actual problem.

Your posts ALWAYS have racial overtones to them. You need to check your attitude at the door. I don't give a flying _uck what you think. Neither victim deserved to die, especially Eric Gardner, who was choked to death by a overzealous cop. The kid in Cleveland was shot by a officer who was recently fired from another police force for not following protocol. In other words, he doesn't have the mental capacity to be a cop and make prudent decisions, and shouldn't have been hired in the first place. Your know-it-all attitude is wearing thin around here.

[G-DDT]

As in whipping a dead horse repeatedly in hopes it will continue to gallop another day

Criminals are criminals and remain criminals even when they are shot by a cop. Police might do well to shoot more often, then criminals may actually fear the police.

Whoa. You choose to be an inflammatory comment maker everytime. I shouldn't even throw out pearls and justify your comments with a response, but....I know lots of folks in all of my travels who made serious mistakes, did the time, became well reformed, and later held very respectful positions later on in life.
Three conservative viewpoints I despise greatly [[and I find contrary to Christian teaching) are: 1.) someone is born evil [[Mary "Bad Seed" Bell was abused as child, most killers were). 2.) no one can change [[tell that to Saul of Tharsus or if you are a Nixon fan, Charles Colson. 3.) the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree [[this is in direct violation of Ezekiel 18; Sadly, a lot of our culture bases it's values of how your insurance or credit ratings should be based-almost eugenically-by your family and it's attitudes.). Please wise up and quit spewing bile everywhere.

[Wesley Mouch]

Your posts ALWAYS have racial overtones to them. You need to check your attitude at the door. I don't give a flying _uck what you think. Neither victim deserved to die, especially Eric Gardner, who was choked to death by a overzealous cop. The kid in Cleveland was shot by a officer who was recently fired from another police force for not following protocol. In other words, he doesn't have the mental capacity to be a cop and make prudent decisions, and shouldn't have been hired in the first place. Your know-it-all attitude is wearing thin around here.

Racist Wesley must ask... what did he say that had racial overtones. He made a reasonable point. The protesters are 100% about this being 'white cop on black people' problem.

And what does 'deserve to die' mean? Of course they didn't deserve to die. Don't fall for such meanless phrases. There's nobody saying anyone 'deserved to die'.

I think you're really fallen for the 'war on cops' line, hook & sinker. If this cop doesn't 'have the mental capacity' to be a cop, then he should be found innocent. And the some Cleveland PD brass should get fired. But don't crucify this mentally-challenged officer for trying to protect and serve.

[Bham1982]

Your posts ALWAYS have racial overtones to them. You need to check your attitude at the door. I don't give a flying _uck what you think. Neither victim deserved to die, especially Eric Gardner, who was choked to death by a overzealous cop. .

You didn't even bother to read the thread, did you? This is why people are easily fooled; they allow themselves to be fooled.

If you did read the thread, you would know I agree with you on the choking case, you would know I do think police are overzealous, and I never claimed anyone "deserved to die". Even one dead person is one too many.

And I doubt even 5% of my posts on DYes have any reference to "racial undertones", whatever that means.

[248lurker]

The cops never willingly block off the freeways, either. But I don't see how cops could stop you from blocking off small roads like Main Street and Old Woodward, at least not without making a HUGE scene.

Earlier this year, I went to the mall at 13 Mile & Woodward. As the light turned red for each direction, a group of protesters stood out in the street. Apparently, the protest was regarding practices at nearby Beaumont Hospital.

To their credit, the protesters stopped blocking the intersection before the light changed from red to green and then shifted to the cross street while it had the red light.

That's why I didn't see the logic in blocking the freeways. Cars driving 55 MPH or more coupled with more instances of road rage makes it a potentially ugly situation should someone get hit [[or tensions boil over) before the police can come and maintain some semblance of order.

[Zacha341]

Withstanding the merits of a given protest I don't agree with activities involving the freeways where someone can easily get hurt of killed. Nope, not feeling it.

[Gpwrangler]

That's why I didn't see the logic in blocking the freeways. Cars driving 55 MPH or more coupled with more instances of road rage makes it a potentially ugly situation should someone get hit [[or tensions boil over) before the police can come and maintain some semblance of order.

Walking onto roadways into traffic is not a peaceful protest. Protesters do it at their own risk; the lives of people on the freeway matter too. Groups that cause accidents or fatalities [[ even three miles back) need to be prosecuted.

[Willi]

There was little logic in the protest, period.

[Wesley Mouch]

If we step back from these dramatic individual situations and look at the whole of what's happening, I wonder what forumers think about the state of urban policing in general.

Whitey Mouch wonders if the typical black experience with cops is as negative as the protesters claim.

We've reached a point where there's a general impression that cops are bad. And they know it. You can look at the police vs. St. Louis Rams, or more interesting at the current NYPD vs. DeBlasion at police funerals issue and see that this charge of pervasive racism is taking its toll. [[“We’ve had to literally train <Dante>, as families have all over this city for decades, in how to take special care in any encounter he has with the police officers who are there to protect him,” the mayor said.")

Does the problem of latent racism required a dismantling and re-education of cops, or were the police departments doing enough to handle things?

Stats seem to universally suggest that police violence on citizens continues to decline. Do we need this 'war on cops'? Will it be a benefit to urban policing, or will it pull the cops back from the front lines?

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Let's face it, Racism is here to stay, it's not going anywhere because people won't allow their attitudes and fears whether real or perceived to change. The recent incidents in Missouri, NY and Cleveland prove it, right or wrong. It's like the 1960's all over again.

[Wesley Mouch]

Let's face it, Racism is here to stay, it's not going anywhere because people won't allow their attitudes and fears whether real or perceived to change. The recent incidents in Missouri, NY and Cleveland prove it, right or wrong. It's like the 1960's all over again.

How sad.

I see people's attitudes change over time. Today seems very different than the 1960's to me. Just how many inter-racial relationships and families existed in 1960, other than the fictional Bunker family of TV. I knew none. Today, most families have diversity. Hard to find a family without a mix.

[Honky Tonk]

I see people's attitudes change over time. Today, most families have diversity. Hard to find a family without a mix.

I agree with the first part. SOME people's attitudes have changed, on both sides of the equation, but not all. But come on, Wesley, "most" and "hard to find"? There's boatloads of families with no "diversity" whatsoever.

[Wesley Mouch]

I agree with the first part. SOME people's attitudes have changed, on both sides of the equation, but not all. But come on, Wesley, "most" and "hard to find"? There's boatloads of families with no "diversity" whatsoever.

From <1% to 20% over 50 years -- works for me.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

I agree with the first part. SOME people's attitudes have changed, on both sides of the equation, but not all. But come on, Wesley, "most" and "hard to find"? There's boatloads of families with no "diversity" whatsoever.

The sooner Wesley climbs out from under that rock, the better off he'll be.