'Fight for $15' wage protests across metro Detroit

[Wesley Mouch]

Then they'd have to pay the cop more, wouldn't they? And then maybe we wouldn't be able to afford quite as many wasteful civic projects. They might even have to scale back the new convention center a tiny bit! Doom, I say, DOOOOM![/COLOR]

Doom indeed!

I think we all agree that we want low-wage workers to do better. There are some right-wing zealots [[with whom I think I get lumped) who dont' care about them. But I do. I actually am a libertarian-socialist.

The question is what's the right tool.

We've lived with a minimum-wage at a low [[and falling) level, and that's not caused us too much grief. So do we increase this, or are there better ways?

Yes -- the better way is an expansion of the Earned Income Credit. This gets you money into the hands of the working poor, which not distorting the market.

As you point out, if you nearly double the minimum wage, there will be a lot of unintended consequences. You may see more rich retirees taking jobs at McD, for example, squeezing out the real working poor. Only an example. But once you move to government set wages and prices, the world gets funny fast.

The experiments in a few jurisdictions will be interesting to watch.

Helping the working poor isn't just giving them more money. It also means having access to reasonably priced housing and food. Can we also dictate the grocery stores not pass on the wage costs to urban consumers?

The minimum wage initiative may be well-intentioned. But it will cause a great deal of harm to those you are trying to help.

[Honky Tonk]

Since pay increases and benefits for skilled or degreed workers has been our the steady decline, maybe we could all meet somewhere in the middle? Everyone makes $25 an hour, and a national health plan, no matter what you do.

[Willi]

There is no way a Titan of Industry like Richard Brodie [[Wico in Warren) is going to pay guys packing metal parts into totes for $7.75/hr currently ; to suddenly get $15/hr wage.

Brodie, and others like Maroun simply will throw BIG weight/leverage/influence around to Kill this initiative of higher minimum wages

[JBMcB]

I hope it does pass. People will get a nice boost in wages until the robots are rolled out. I bet the robots that will be making my Big Mac are going to be *really* cool. I love robots.

[Willi]

Robots don't buy a damn thing
They do little in the big picture

[Jimaz]

Robots don't buy a damn thing
They do little in the big picture

True, but of course they had to make a video about it anyway: Robot Buying Bananas

[ABetterDetroit]

How the minimum wage is increased should be as easy as is there an incentive to get off entitlements to work for a living? No brainer, it's just human nature.

$7.25 sure isn't much of an incentive.

All those arguing politics on this issue are pretty dumb. It's just like undocumented workers, they would rather throw billions a year at a fence that doesn't really work than pass a simple law with teeth that charges big fines and or jail time if you hire them. Why? because both repubs and demos make big money for their campaigns off of super cheap/illegal workers. Everyone from chicken farms in the south, landscaping, construction, domestic, cleaning, service industries, and fast food all across America want 2nd world wages and to pass the cost of that on to the rest of us. If either party actually wanted to stop it they would have done so decades ago with great political success. It's just a money thing.

[rb336]

Just a few factual tidbits:
Minimum wage in Australia? $15/hr. A big mac is, on average, a few cents less
McDonalds wage in Denmark [[or one of the Nordic countries or Holland, I can't really recall)? $21/hr. A big mac is a few cents more

[Willi]

Raising the Minimum Wage
and Redesigning the EITC

Interesting article 2 pronged attack :

http://www.brookings.edu/research/pa...g-eitc-sawhill

[KJ5]

I doubt that even they think they could get $15/hr. Isn't that how bargaining works? Like if they want $12/hr they better ask for 15, since they will be bargained down.
Maybe they can get 10. I for one think a hard day's work ,in whatever profession, should earn one enough money to live on.

[Wesley Mouch]

Raising the Minimum Wage
and Redesigning the EITC

Interesting article 2 pronged attack :

http://www.brookings.edu/research/pa...g-eitc-sawhill

A very sensible approach, as long as you don't mind the ongoing harm to low-income families, depriving them on second jobs at below minimum, for example, its fine.

The minimum wage is very harmful to the poor, but I'd support its increase as part of a package to provide real help.

from the post:

Although past increases do not appear to have adversely affected employment, there is no denying the risk that much larger increases might pose to the least skilled workers.

also from the post:

About two-thirds of current minimum-wage earners live above 200 percent of the federal poverty line. Only about a fifth are poor.

[Kevgoblue]

Fast food is supposed to be temporary, fill-in type of work. It's not supposed to be a lifetime career, or one to support a family. I know people with Masters degrees earning around the same, or a little more.

Sounds good. Except for the fact that the business model of McDonalds and the other fast food restaurants has changed. They no longer want the high school kids. They'd rather hire the unemployed adults because they can reduce their turnover.
"more and more fast-food workers are adults struggling to make ends meet, not teenagers earning a bit of spending money."

No surprise, those adults cannot support themselves making fast food wages.
"A growing proportion of fast-food employees get federal assistance to buy food, according to census data compiled by the University of Minnesota Population Center. The proportion of fast-food workers who receive food stamps rose to 26.9 percent in 2010, compared with 15 percent of all Americans, the data show."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-12/mcdonald-s-8-25-man-and-8-75-million-ceo-shows-pay-gap.html

[Vic01]

I doubt that even they think they could get $15/hr. Isn't that how bargaining works? Like if they want $12/hr they better ask for 15, since they will be bargained down.
Maybe they can get 10. I for one think a hard day's work ,in whatever profession, should earn one enough money to live on.

Two questions -

Is an entry level position at a fast food place really a "profession"? Considering that a profession usually equals a "career", I'd say a McDonald's job is just that, a J O B period.

What is "enough money to live on"? I don't think that's very clear. Some would [[and do) say that the old time $30+ per hr [[with overtime and excellent benefits) factory jobs that allowed one worker to support the entire family while a spouse stayed home watching the kids was a "living wage". Also, be sure to include enough $$$ to put the kids through college, take nice vacations, and have a few "toys"...

The term "living wage" is so open to interpretation that it needs to be replaced with something more clearly defined.

[Willi]

Minimum wage affects WAY more than just fast food.
Manufacturing, the life blood of the MetroDetroit area, pays minimum wage for many jobs.

How can the USA be competitive at making anything
- and then selling that product on the world market.

[ABetterDetroit]

Just a few factual tidbits:
Minimum wage in Australia? $15/hr. A big mac is, on average, a few cents less
McDonalds wage in Denmark [[or one of the Nordic countries or Holland, I can't really recall)? $21/hr. A big mac is a few cents more

I don't need any convincing, you have to be dull as a butter knife not to know that America has treated its poorest citizens like crap. Look to Japan, Germany, Uk, France, Austria, Switzerland, Australia,new Zealand, holland and we know we pretty much fucked it up.

[rb336]

so what happens to a consumption-based economy when huge swaths of consumers aren't paid enough to buy anything beyond bare necessities?

[Bham1982]

Since pay increases and benefits for skilled or degreed workers has been our the steady decline, maybe we could all meet somewhere in the middle? Everyone makes $25 an hour, and a national health plan, no matter what you do.

Well that would pretty much put the nail in the coffin of the U.S. A radiologist and a fast food worker all make the same pay. And basic consumer goods would double or triple in price. Almost all high skill workers would just move to another country.

[Bham1982]

Just a few factual tidbits:
Minimum wage in Australia? $15/hr. A big mac is, on average, a few cents less
McDonalds wage in Denmark [[or one of the Nordic countries or Holland, I can't really recall)? $21/hr. A big mac is a few cents more

Those numbers are wrong for Europe. McDonalds costs, on average, around twice as much in Western Europe as in the U.S.

And most Western European countries have no minimum wage [[Germany, for example), or around $10 [[France, for example). I think Denmark and Norway are the exceptions and have sky-high minimum wages, but they are also incredibly expensive, where consumer goods are like 3-4 times more than in the U.S. Remember these countries aren't in the Eurozone, so their currency is seriously impacted by the wage requirements.

Making 50k in the U.S. is a much better bet than making 100k in Norway. Prices are that high.

[Bham1982]

so what happens to a consumption-based economy when huge swaths of consumers aren't paid enough to buy anything beyond bare necessities?

Median income in the U.S. is highest in the world among large nations. And median consumer buying power in the U.S. is higher than basically anywhere. Wage growth has been pretty solid in the last couple of years, BTW.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Median income in the U.S. is highest in the world among large nations. And median consumer buying power in the U.S. is higher than basically anywhere. Wage growth has been pretty solid in the last couple of years, BTW.

You're wrong... while median income may be the highest among large nations, wage growth has not increased and has been stagnant for most US workers. I know of some workers [[depending on the occupation) that haven't seen a pay increase in 10 years. And the raises that some do get, aren't enough to keep up with the rising costs of everything thing else. A raise of .50 cents per hr is not sufficient. Now the pay of CEO's and other high ranking executives, paints a totally different picture, since that is at a all time high. Ridiculous.

[Bham1982]

You're wrong... while median income may be the highest among large nations, wage growth has not increased and has been stagnant for most US workers.

So are economists, the Obama Administration and the NY Times all lying?

From yesterday-
Big Job Gains and Rising Pay in Labor Data
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/06/bu...t-figures.html

The U.S. economy, right now, is the envy of the developed word. Western Europe and Japan are a mess in 2014. Even Germany is now in recession.

And inflation has been very, very low in recent years. Even if wages were stagnant, it isn't like you're falling behind if inflation is near 0.

[sumas]

I am always full of dumb stories, We patronize a local diner. Three handsome young black teens were ordering carry out. A sign in the window says /help wanted. One young man wanted an application He got shut down real fast. Told he needed to be 19 and two years of experience. He said I went through the culinary program at VoTech, an excellent program.

I will not be going there again. I support business that support locals. I support business that pay a decent wage. We don't go out and about that much but don't mind a higher tag for happy service

[313WX]

I am always full of dumb stories, We patronize a local diner. Three handsome young black teens were ordering carry out. A sign in the window says /help wanted. One young man wanted an application He got shut down real fast. Told he needed to be 19 and two years of experience. He said I went through the culinary program at VoTech, an excellent program.

I will not be going there again. I support business that support locals. I support business that pay a decent wage. We don't go out and about that much but don't mind a higher tag for happy service

That's just the way it is.

The official unemployment rate in Detroit is 23%. So business owners can be as rude/crass and picky towards potential employees as they choose to.

IF I'm likely struggling to make a profit myself in a city with a ridiculously high cost of doing business, of course I'm not going to waste my time and money training unexperienced/undereducated employees either...

[sumas]

That's just the way it is.

The official unemployment rate in Detroit is 23%. So business owners can be as rude/crass and picky towards potential employees as they choose to.

IF I'm likely struggling to make a profit myself in a city with a ridiculously high cost of doing business, of course I'm not going to waste my time and money training unexperienced/undereducated employees either...

I resent that comment, a nice wellspoken, well dressed young man wanted an app. Culinary training too. Un Experienced perhaps but everyone needs a start somewhere, to assume under educated is purely conjecture. Keep up the hate Detroit crap. Try faulting DPS, not the kids. By the way the diner/coney does a stellar business.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

That's just the way it is.

The official unemployment rate in Detroit is 23%. So business owners can be as rude/crass and picky towards potential employees as they choose to.

IF I'm likely struggling to make a profit myself in a city with a ridiculously high cost of doing business, of course I'm not going to waste my time and money training unexperienced/undereducated employees either...

So since the young man says he went through a culinary program at VoTech, he isn't worth a look?