'Fight for $15' wage protests across metro Detroit

[nain rouge]

Also, I want to make it clear that even I think $15 an hour is a bit extreme. But I'd like to see at least $12 an hour.

[Bham1982]

Times change. We're a consumer society with a gigantic service sector. That's where the jobs are. If the surpluses are there, why can't we have some of it? No one is saying that fast food workers should be paid like CEOs. But a few bucks on hour won't destroy the economy. In fact, it could actually improve it. The economy does better when more money is circulating, and lower wage workers tend to spend almost everything they earn.[/COLOR]

I have no problem with an increase in the minimum wage [[somewhere between 10 and 12 sounds reasonable to me), but I'm telling you, the fast food giants are all investing huge sums in automation.

The day is coming, and pretty soon, when you won't be interacting with a person when you get your cheeseburger. Any increase in employee costs will just hasten that day, and makes the economics behind automation more attractive. The fast food giants [[and the "fast casual" Paneras and Chipotles) are spending huge sums on automation.

[jiminnm]

Most fast food restaurants are owned by smaller franchisees, not the food company. McDonald's for example, owns about 20% of it's franchises with the others owned by individuals and small businesses. It is those individuals and small businesses who determine employee pay based on the area in which they are located and they would bear the brunt of any wage increases.

Also, as pay for fast food workers the number of fast food jobs will decrease. Some of those restaurants have already begun to replace counter workers with electronic kiosk ordering and payment.

[nain rouge]

The day is coming, and pretty soon, when you won't be interacting with a person when you get your cheeseburger. Any increase in employee costs will just hasten that day, and makes the economics behind automation more attractive. The fast food giants [[and the "fast casual" Paneras and Chipotles) are spending huge sums on automation.

You think in the day and age of "hand-dipped", baristas, and "freshly grilled", what the American consumer really wants is 50 cent hamburgers from a robot? That's such an outdated concept, and would be INCREDIBLY expensive to implement on such a wide scale.

And who's going to pay for all these robot services? The Midwest economy still hasn't truly recovered from automotive automation. Eventually the bottom WILL give out.

[Bham1982]

You think in the day and age of "hand-dipped", baristas, and "freshly grilled", what the American consumer really wants is 50 cent hamburgers from a robot? That's such an outdated concept, and would be INCREDIBLY expensive to implement on such a wide scale.

The day is coming. McDonalds, Burger King, and the like are all headed to automation. It's even started, in ways you now internalize as "normal". Remember when you would get your beverage from a fast food server? No more.

And even the fast casuals are all going this route. Panera already has automated ordering in some test outlets.

There are probably few more endangered job types than fast food front-counter employee. It's analagous to newpaper delivery, typewriter repair, and the like. Good luck with long term job security when automation costs are plummeting by the year.

Even places like Chilis and Applebees will have much greater automation. Some outlets now use tablets instead of wait staff.

[nain rouge]

I agree that fast food will continue to "mechanize". At McDonald's, the hamburgers are basically cooked by a machine. A human "feeds" the grill patties, adds seasoning, and then presses a button. It gets grilled on both sides by the machine, no need to flip.

The fries involve a level of automation, too, but it's been a long time since I worked at McD's. I forget exactly how the whole system worked, but I distinctly remember fries moving on a conveyor of sorts.

And I agree that touch screens will replace some cashier jobs. But you'll still need a worker to answer questions and assist confused customers. It's not going to be a 100% machine operation.

So for now, I'm calling the fast food industry's bluff. You don't need people? Fine, let's see you bring on the machines, then.

[nain rouge]

Plus, the hospitality industry is a lot different. This isn't like the auto plants, which are out of sight and mind for the typical consumer. There's been talk of replacing humans in the hospitality industry ever since Henry Ford. You'd place money in a machine and your food would exit out of a chute.

Heck, install one of those chutes in the office and you could have your employees live just like a factory farm animal! How efficient.

[ndavies]

Fast food automation is already here. Fast food restaurants are run with about 1/2 the number of people it took to run one 30 years ago. The large fast food companies all have large test kitchens where they measure and time everything they do. All trying to drive down costs. They're putting new procedures and machinery in place as we speak.

As labor becomes a larger portion of the cost, it is a larger target for cost cutting. If you haven't noticed most of the McDonalds now have automated drink assemblers. Once the register person places your drink order, the machine drops a cup fills it with ice and the drink. The worker only needs to put on the cap and hand it to you. There's one less person you need since nobody had to assemble the drink now.

When I worked at McDonalds 30 years ago, you needed two people to grill the burgers, one to toast the buns and one to assemble the burger. You had to manually flip them to cook each side. The new McDonalds kitchens cook both side of the burger at once and only require 2 people to do the work of 4. Those 2 people also handle a much larger menu than we had in the 80s.

People are losing jobs, As the machines become cheaper and the minimum wage goes up.

[nain rouge]

I'd also argue that the skill to be a GOOD fast food worker has gone up as technology has increased.

When I worked at Arby's I had to remember orders from the drive thru on my headset while managing the fryer section. At the fryer section I had to instantly determine the quantities of food that had to be cooked using my own judgment, and then set the fryers to the correct cook setting.

Once I was done with the fryer section, I had to input the customer's order into the computer. If I remembered one item wrong from the previous conversation [[5 Arby melts, 2 no cheese, 1 home fry, 1 curly, 2 chocolate turnovers, and a Coke and Diet Coke), I'd be in big trouble. So that was another ordeal. And of course I was supposed to have already shouted the order to the workers while at the fryer.

Then, and only then, could I bag the orders. By now, the fryers were beeping with cooked food that needed to be pulled up. Meanwhile, a customer in the lobby is inevitably trying to get my attention to ask how many mozzarella sticks come in an order, and no matter what number I tell them it's guaranteed they'll complain about it [["5? THAT'S IT?"). If I don't address them right away, though, they'll complain about the poor service online and I'll get yelled at by corporate.

All that, for $7 an hour.

[Det_ard]

I agree that fast food will continue to "mechanize". At McDonald's, the hamburgers are basically cooked by a machine. A human "feeds" the grill patties, adds seasoning, and then presses a button. It gets grilled on both sides by the machine, no need to flip.

The fries involve a level of automation, too, but it's been a long time since I worked at McD's. I forget exactly how the whole system worked, but I distinctly remember fries moving on a conveyor of sorts.

And I agree that touch screens will replace some cashier jobs. But you'll still need a worker to answer questions and assist confused customers. It's not going to be a 100% machine operation.

So for now, I'm calling the fast food industry's bluff. You don't need people? Fine, let's see you bring on the machines, then.

In 1840 fully 70% of American workers worked in agriculture. Today just 2% work in agriculture. What happened to food production in that time? Instead of feeding 17 million Americans in 1840, we feed 315 million Americans today and millions more around the world with our agricultural exports.

Look at manufacturing employment. It's been on a steady decline for decades, yet our output keeps going up.

Technology will allow us to continue to use machines to make processes more efficient, productive and make their output more affordable. There's no reason why this won't happen in your local fast food restaurant if labor costs increase too much. I wouldn't be surprised to see employment drop 50% - 70% if wages go up to $15/hr. There will be jobs created for people who can build, install and maintain the machines but they probably won't be filled by unskilled burger flippers and change makers.

[nain rouge]

Like I said, there's big difference between out of sight, out of mind sectors and hospitality. Plus, I just don't believe an increasingly health conscious consumer that's desirous of higher quality experiences and products is clamoring for a 50 cent burger from a machine.

Call me when there's a McDonald's that gets by with 2-3 employees at lunch time. I think that'll be decades from now.

[Det_ard]

McD's and the like aren't getting the "increasingly health conscious consumer that's desirous of higher quality experiences and products". They try, but their bread and butter is what it's always been. People seeking low-priced, quick food. Call me when that changes.

[nain rouge]

McDonald's just added coffee bars with pseudo-baristas. Why? Because the company is losing the younger generations once they hit adulthood. Yeah, sure, the company's bread and butter right now is the old fogies in love with McNasty Deluxes. But what's the company's future? More and more, it's looking like a dinosaur. In a way, it's like the newspapers.

An investment in full-scale automation won't pay off with the younger generations, which also happen to be the same people campaigning for higher wages. It's a losing game.

[ndavies]

Like I said, there's big difference between out of sight, out of mind sectors and hospitality. Plus, I just don't believe an increasingly health conscious consumer that's desirous of higher quality experiences and products is clamoring for a 50 cent burger from a machine.

Call me when there's a McDonald's that gets by with 2-3 employees at lunch time. I think that'll be decades from now.

Those customers aren't shopping at McDonalds to begin with. The people shopping there want a quick, cheap meal that fills them up. McDonalds food is only passable on a good day. It has nothing to do with healthy. The only thing good about it is you know it will have the same mediocre taste as the last time you ate it.

[nain rouge]

Last thing I'll say, because I've wasted too much time. McDonald's wants to keep growing. It's days of growth are done if its future is slop prepared by robots.

[ndavies]

The US is already saturated with McDonalds. Most of their future growth will be in foreign countries.

[nain rouge]

OK, one last last thing I'll say, because it got stuck in my head.

Those customers aren't shopping at McDonalds to begin with. The people shopping there want a quick, cheap meal that fills them up. McDonalds food is only passable on a good day.

Oh, please. I've watched old people crave their Egg McNothin's on Saturday mornings when they have the time and money for something better [[and that better barely costs more in time and money).

I've grown to learn that the older generations had a funny way of looking at their world. They ranted about how their employers were dumb, and then they did whatever their employer said. They'd complain about how gross fast food was, how poor the service is, but then they'd line up for it every morning.

Because, secretly, they were content with the world and liked how everything was.

Well, I'm not convinced the younger generations are as a complacent. For a variety of reasons, of course.

[BankruptcyGuy]

Nain, I get your point. But I guess I'll throw in two things:

1. Who is going to set the wages? The government, or the people who start/run businesses? I'm not going to argue that all regulation is bad regulation, but when it comes to wages, government fiat isn't the best way to set them.

2. The best thing that can happen to low wage employees is to have a labor shortage. If you have a job, want a raise, and are denying, your life only improves if you can find another job that will give you one. The level of job growth in this country has been poor since 2008, and that's [[in my humble opinion) the largest driver of wage stagnation.

[Vic01]

...All this will do is hasten the advent of automation. The fast food giants are all about a decade away from nearly full automation, and elimination of most "front counter" and some kitchen jobs.

So then, if we get at $15 wage, all the protesters will have a new cause- protesting all the unemployed poor people now back on the dole, and needing a "living welfare check".

Coming soon to a McDonald's near you - Looks like these guys will work for less than $1 an hour...

A restaurant owner in China is opting to save on employee wages by foregoing traditional servers and using robots instead.
The eatery, located in a shopping mall in Ningbo, a city in China's northeastern Zhejiang province, has become a big tourist draw with its futuristic waitstaff.
Each robot costs over $9,400 but owner Lu Dike insists that he is still saving money over the long term, reports the Daily Mail.
The automated bots take orders, and even speak to customers with a 40 phrase Mandarin Chinese vocabulary. Each machine travels through the small eatery using an optical sensing system that is designed that keeps them from running into walls or people.
The robots, which have a lifespan of about five years and run on a rechargeable battery that lasts up to eight hours.

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2014/...rs-for-robots/

[313WX]

Nain, I get your point. But I guess I'll throw in two things:

1. Who is going to set the wages? The government, or the people who start/run businesses? I'm not going to argue that all regulation is bad regulation, but when it comes to wages, government fiat isn't the best way to set them.

2. The best thing that can happen to low wage employees is to have a labor shortage. If you have a job, want a raise, and are denying, your life only improves if you can find another job that will give you one. The level of job growth in this country has been poor since 2008, and that's [[in my humble opinion) the largest driver of wage stagnation.

Between illegal immigration, globalization, automation and the fact that many organizations are running with fewer people, it's highly unlikely that we'll ever see the labor shortage we had last century ever again, at least in our lifetimes [[short of massive depopulation and massive government regulation).

So the question then is what other solution is there to address the growing wealth gap and stagnant wages, or should we just let the chips fall where they may?

Although nain rouge IMO is being too idealistic with his perspective, at least he's trying to come up with a solution.

[Bham1982]

Last thing I'll say, because I've wasted too much time. McDonald's wants to keep growing. It's days of growth are done if its future is slop prepared by robots.

McDonalds days of growth are done, at least in the industrialized world. The U.S. is fully bult out and their market share is in decline; France actually has more per capita McDonalds restaurant-goers than the U.S.

[Johnnny5]

Between illegal immigration, globalization, automation and the fact that many organizations are running with fewer people, it's highly unlikely that we'll ever see the labor shortage we had last century ever again, at least in our lifetimes [[short of massive depopulation and massive government regulation).

Illegally employed foreign workers are a huge wage killer for food service workers! Go into the back room of just about any restaurant and it's easy to understand why wages in the food service are depressed. Unfortunately, the Republicans like the cheap labor and the Democrats love the votes, so there's no political will to change things.

[Danny]

$15.00 minimum wage, not going to happen. A &10.00 wage will do.

[rex]

not sure how i feel about this. Poverty wages suck tho

[1953]

I read an article in the Economist a while back that suggested the best way to set minimum wage was by technocrat. In other words, let's not just all guess what an appropriate minimum wage is; let's appoint a committee of economists to determine the break even point between bringing up quality of life for low wage workers and crashing the economy. This has since sounded very appealing to me.

1953