Grosse Pointe going ghetto?

[Hans64]

To see the future of Grosse Pointe, one only has to look at the Cleveland suburb of Shaker Heights. Very similar communities in many respects--Shaker has no lakefront but Shaker homes are at least as impressive as the better sections of Grosse Pointe. Shaker was once the top shelf NEO suburb but today it is far less exclusive and racially mixed. The areas closest to Cleveland and lower class suburbs have declined considerably and the wealthiest areas [[Club District, Park Boulevards, Shaker Boulevard) have not changed much. What has changed is that Shaker does not carry the same cachet that it held for decades and many would argue it is past its prime.

[canuck]

To see the future of Grosse Pointe, one only has to look at the Cleveland suburb of Shaker Heights. Very similar communities in many respects--Shaker has no lakefront but Shaker homes are at least as impressive as the better sections of Grosse Pointe. Shaker was once the top shelf NEO suburb but today it is far less exclusive and racially mixed. The areas closest to Cleveland and lower class suburbs have declined considerably and the wealthiest areas [[Club District, Park Boulevards, Shaker Boulevard) have not changed much. What has changed is that Shaker does not carry the same cachet that it held for decades and many would argue it is past its prime.

That racial mix will do it. It's a modern day crucifixion.

[MAcc]

To see the future of Grosse Pointe, one only has to look at the Cleveland suburb of Shaker Heights. Very similar communities in many respects--Shaker has no lakefront but Shaker homes are at least as impressive as the better sections of Grosse Pointe. Shaker was once the top shelf NEO suburb but today it is far less exclusive and racially mixed. The areas closest to Cleveland and lower class suburbs have declined considerably and the wealthiest areas [[Club District, Park Boulevards, Shaker Boulevard) have not changed much. What has changed is that Shaker does not carry the same cachet that it held for decades and many would argue it is past its prime.

How long ago did Shaker Heights "turn"? And why have the Pointes been able to hold on longer? Perhaps the outcome will be different for GP. Perhaps the proximity to the waterfront make it different. But once the public schools turn, there's really no going back. Few want to waste their life "saving" a school district. And most are generally unwilling to pay high taxes when they have to budget for private schools for their spawn. Much easier to just move to something that is stable and desirable, i.e. flight.

[canuck]

"School districts" and "demographics" are interchangeable terms.

[Hans64]

Shaker circa the late 80s. Sounds a bit familiar... http://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/27/us...cleveland.html

[DetroitBoy]

The Pointes haven't held on any longer than Shaker Heights. It's been on a long, slow decline since the '90s. What goes on there hasn't been in the news much because it is supressed by the locals in an attempt to maintain the pristine image from the past. Unfortunately, a lot of the residents 'drink the Kool Aid" and believe this contrived image. With more and more of these unfortunate public incidents occuring and an overall lower and declining caliber of people moving in, the current and future state is very apparent. Ask any former native from GP [[real ones born at Cottage) and you will get a clear picture of how much it has changed. Most would encourage young families to look at Birmingham, Bloomfield or other nice places in Oakland county.

[dtowncitylover]

The Pointes haven't held on any longer than Shaker Heights. It's been on a long, slow decline since the '90s. What goes on there hasn't been in the news much because it is supressed by the locals in an attempt to maintain the pristine image from the past. Unfortunately, a lot of the residents 'drink the Kool Aid" and believe this contrived image. With more and more of these unfortunate public incidents occuring and an overall lower and declining caliber of people moving in, the current and future state is very apparent. Ask any former native from GP [[real ones born at Cottage) and you will get a clear picture of how much it has changed. Most would encourage young families to look at Birmingham, Bloomfield or other nice places in Oakland county.

Because the ones born at Bon Secours are not real Grosse Pointers. And if they're former GPers, then how would they know if anything has changed? What's your proof of anything going "downhill" for the Pointes? A rowdy kid at the high school? Kids going into the city to buy drugs? I had plenty of both of those at my private school and my community isn't going "downhill". The Pointes are still well off and will continue to be. Anyone who think Kercheval and Cadieux is about to become Gratiot and 7 Mile is painstakingly and embarrassingly trying to blow things out of proportion to "scare" us, e.g., Fox 2 News.

[Hans64]

I feel compelled to add that while I think there are changing demographics in both Shaker and GP, I'd live in either one without hesitation. To make a Chicago comparison, both GP and Shaker will move towards being more like Evanston/Oak Park and less like Winnetka/Lake Forest.

[Gistok]

Because the ones born at Bon Secours are not real Grosse Pointers. And if they're former GPers, then how would they know if anything has changed? What's your proof of anything going "downhill" for the Pointes? A rowdy kid at the high school? Kids going into the city to buy drugs? I had plenty of both of those at my private school and my community isn't going "downhill". The Pointes are still well off and will continue to be. Anyone who think Kercheval and Cadieux is about to become Gratiot and 7 Mile is painstakingly and embarrassingly trying to blow things out of proportion to "scare" us, e.g., Fox 2 News.

Agreed 100%, I feel like I'm watching the 5PM newscasts with some of our "Sky is falling" newbies....

Ghettomongers Detroitboy and MAcc you've been repeating yourselves in this thread....

[SyGolden48236]

Oy Vey! What nonsense this thread is!

Those of us who live in the Pointes, and have for many years, do not feel that it is ghetto. If we did we would move. The rising real estate sale prices also indicate that most others do not feel it is ghetto either.

The only folks I hear claiming that the Pointe is ghetto are young malcontent blog-jockeys who spend far too much time opining online about things that they no nothing of.

If you feel that my community is so ghetto please do yourself [[and us) a favor and stay far away from it. Feh!

[DetroitBoy]

Instead of spending your time drinking Kool Aid, you should read your own local newspaper.

My mother does every Thursday and she's shocked at what she sees. Her phone is ringing in the afternoon with calls from her friends who are still in GP when they read it.

Don't get mad at me for what goes on over there. It's your problem not mine. We love Bloomfield Hills!

[MikeM]

Instead of spending your time drinking Kool Aid, you should read your own local newspaper.

My mother does every Thursday and she's shocked at what she sees. Her phone is ringing in the afternoon with calls from her friends who are still in GP when they read it.

Don't get mad at me for what goes on over there. It's your problem not mine. We love Bloomfield Hills!

Baloney. There's nothing different in the Thursday paper than there has been for decades: petty burglaries, shoplifting, drunk driving, and loud parties. All one has to do is look at the GP News archives. I've posted plenty of examples already. What's obvious is you hold some sort of inferiority that you can't let go of. Don't worry, we're okay here.

[boater4life]

Instead of spending your time drinking Kool Aid, you should read your own local newspaper.

My mother does every Thursday and she's shocked at what she sees. Her phone is ringing in the afternoon with calls from her friends who are still in GP when they read it.

Don't get mad at me for what goes on over there. It's your problem not mine. We love Bloomfield Hills!

What about a few months ago in bloomfield when that someone knocked on that lawyer's door. Lawyer wouldn't let him in so the burglar shot him through the door. This was in his bloomfield palace. In birmingham last month, a guy comes home from work to find 3 people in his house robbing him. He called the police right away. Things happen everywhere and anywhere. I think the pointes will always be desirable. Maybe not as desirable as the 60's or 70's but looked upon as so, nonetheless. Plenty of lakefront mansions who will support the surrounding tax base for quite a while. Trust me, the people living in those will not be going anywhere.

[DetroitBoy]

What about a few months ago in bloomfield when that someone knocked on that lawyer's door. Lawyer wouldn't let him in so the burglar shot him through the door. This was in his bloomfield palace. In birmingham last month, a guy comes home from work to find 3 people in his house robbing him. He called the police right away. Things happen everywhere and anywhere. I think the pointes will always be desirable. Maybe not as desirable as the 60's or 70's but looked upon as so, nonetheless. Plenty of lakefront mansions who will support the surrounding tax base for quite a while. Trust me, the people living in those will not be going anywhere.

Just for the record since you must be another Eastsider who has never been west of Woodward, the home robbery with 3 people was in Beverly Hills [[S of 14 mile/Southfield Rd) not Birmingham which means it is essentially Southfield. The lawyer/front door shooting in BH you mentioned was masterminded by one of his, how shall we say, "acquaintances" from a local gentleman's club who had visited the home as a 'guest' on previous occasions. She decided to pay another unscheduled visit with two of her male companions which she owed money for drugs.

On your lakefront mansions comment, right, nothing changing there. The Art Van's who left for Oakland county years ago finally gave the house away for 3.8 when they were asking 16M. And then there is Bill Ford and family who now call Ann Arbor home. And let's not forget how many lakefront mansions have been torn down over the years and subdivided into smaller homes because no one can afford them. Other than that, nothing has changed much on the lakefront.

The schools in BH are the best in the region and improving not falling like in GP. They are diverse in student population and there is no issue or masked racial tension like what is happening in GP. Look at a town's schools. They are always the compass for the direction any town is headed.

[boater4life]

Just for the record since you must be another Eastsider who has never been west of Woodward, the home robbery with 3 people was in Beverly Hills [[S of 14 mile/Southfield Rd) not Birmingham which means it is essentially Southfield. The lawyer/front door shooting in BH you mentioned was masterminded by one of his, how shall we say, "acquaintances" from a local gentleman's club who had visited the home as a 'guest' on previous occasions. She decided to pay another unscheduled visit with two of her male companions which she owed money for drugs.

On your lakefront mansions comment, right, nothing changing there. The Art Van's who left for Oakland county years ago finally gave the house away for 3.8 when they were asking 16M. And then there is Bill Ford and family who now call Ann Arbor home. And let's not forget how many lakefront mansions have been torn down over the years and subdivided into smaller homes because no one can afford them. Other than that, nothing has changed much on the lakefront.

The schools in BH are the best in the region and improving not falling like in GP. They are diverse in student population and there is no issue or masked racial tension like what is happening in GP. Look at a town's schools. They are always the compass for the direction any town is headed.

Just fyi I actually live in Birmingham near Oak and Covington, I am not someone who has never been west of woodward I've lived on both the east and west sides. When you say 14 and southfield road is essentially southfield, how could you not just say that area is essentially Birmingham. Its a crossroads border. You don't have to make yourself feel better by saying it's southfield. Crime is creeping up to your neck of the woods too just like I see on my street from time to time. Lastly, Art Van was asking 16M. Someone could ask 3M for there 900 sq ft. house in Ferndale. You can ask whatever you want, in the end, the house is worth what it's worth. I will always back the eastside no matter where I live, and that is no different right now.

[Danny]

Oy Vey! What nonsense this thread is!

Those of us who live in the Pointes, and have for many years, do not feel that it is ghetto. If we did we would move. The rising real estate sale prices also indicate that most others do not feel it is ghetto either.

The only folks I hear claiming that the Pointe is ghetto are young malcontent blog-jockeys who spend far too much time opining online about things that they no nothing of.

If you feel that my community is so ghetto please do yourself [[and us) a favor and stay far away from it. Feh!

If you hear reports that a black kid ramming to a female student at Grosse Pointe North High School. Two white couple were robbed at night while walking down Lakepointe St. A white female college student was shot and killed in her upstairs family flat in Wayburn St. A female teen who was killed by a botched robbery attempt while doing drugs with friends at a East Side Detroit blighted ghetto hood. One of the those friends is some poor Detroit black male teen. then yes Grosse Pointes is going ghetto.

But most rich to middle class white folks are not ready to give their historic mansions and lakefront properties just yet. Only the few Detroit-esque neighborhoods that white middle class families are to give up in a couple years. Most white folks don't feel quite safe next to Mack Ave. to Alter Rd. But they have to deal with hearing of gunshots and black males walking around wearing Trayvon Martins looking like savage criminals. Some of them might even casing neighborhoods looking for a house in the pointes to rob.

There's already more middle class black folks from Detroit moving to Harper Woods by the thousands and inching closer to Grosse Pointe Woods. I have seen it coming. I told my friends about it many years ago. Thirty years from now the neighborhoods of Harper Woods will look like blighted east side Detroit and Grosse Pointe Woods will look like East English Village. More middle income black families will keep up the property values in Grosse Pointe Woods, but its business district of Mack Ave. from E. 8 Mile Rd. to Moross Dr. will be an instant ghetto mess with few black businesses aside. I will be surprised when I see a black owned African braiding, barber shop salons and storefront church there.

Today Detroit's urban donut problem is slowly but surely changing. More black folks poor and rich are slowly moving the suburbs. The inner ring suburbs where they can get cheap housing will do for them. White folks who are in the beginning stages of millennial generation are quickly moving back to Detroit starting from Gilberttown to Midtown and little or no black businesses will take part in that area. [[Where are the black people in that area?)

As I have been texting, Grosse Pointe is slowly becoming a ghetto. Give it about 30 years, and you see black males walking around Mack Ave. and Vernier Dr. donning their Trayvon Martins walking and casing. More middle class black families living next door on Lockmoor St. While white neighbor just on the next block pack their values on the U-Haul truck on bound to Macomb TWP. at some big home somewhere south of 25 Mile Rd. and west of Heydenreich St. By then ghetto hoods of Harper Woods is long gone just across I-94/Harper Service Drive FWY.

[Danny]

It's been going ghetto for a long time. June, 1930:

TWO PARK PATROLMEN, VICTIMS OF RUTHLESS GUN FIRE OF GANGSTERS, BURIED WEDNESDAY

Gangsters' Cold Blooded Double Murder of Park Officers Marks Grosse Pointe's First Patrolmen to Pay with Lives in Discharge of Duties

Also that week:

Two Daring Robbers Ransack Sales Home Escaping With $300

That's during the time of the Great Depression. Folks can't find work and they get into the gangster shoot make booze and rob rich folks businesses. Just follow the papers and the money.

[Gistok]

The whole argument over the fact that because William Clay Ford Jr. moved to the posh Ann Arbor suburb of Barton Hills is totally irrelevant to any discussion about the Grosse Pointes state of well being.... in fact when you get down to the 4th and 5th generation of Fords... they live in many different locations around the country... partly because they have the money to do so....

Fourth generation

Charlotte Ford: 1941
A glamorous jet-setter in her youth and author of the book "21st-Century Etiquette." Has often said she might have worked for Ford if not for her father's objections to women in the executive suite. Lives in New York.
Married: Stavros Niarchos [[divorced)
Married: Anthony Forstmann [[divorced)
Married: Edward Downe Jr. [[divorced)

Anne Ford: 1943
A well-known Manhattan socialite like her older sister, she recently wrote the book "Laughing Allegra," a memoir about her struggle to cope with her daughter's learning disability.
Married: Giancarlo Uzielli [[divorced)
Married: Charles Scarborough [[divorced)

Edsel B. Ford: II: 1948
Value: $58.58 million
Also owns 4.5 million shares of common stock
Value: $47.3 million
Director: Long considered the family member most likely to become CEO, but never rose higher than vice president. Retired from the company in 1998, but remains a director. Lives in Grosse Pointe and is active in civic and charitable causes, including Detroit's 300th anniversary.
Married: Cynthia Layne Neskow

Benson Ford Jr.: 1949
Became the family's black sheep when he demanded a board seat in 1979 and hired controversial attorney Roy Cohn to sue to overturn his father's will. He later reconciled with the family and worked for the company for nearly a decade. Has homes in Michigan, California and Florida.

Paul and Lynn Ford Alandt, 1987
Value: $94.58 million
A major Class B shareholder, she supports a number of charitable and civic causes. Her husband owns Ford, Lincoln-Mercury and Volvo dealerships. Homes in Michigan, Florida and Texas.
Married: Paul Alandt

Walter Buhl Ford III: 1943
Worked for Ford from 1978-93, mostly for the Lincoln Mercury division. Antique gun collector and raises purebread dogs. Lives on 7,000-acre farm in Georgia.
Married: Barbara Posselius [[divorced)
Married: Charlene Decraene [[divorced)

Eleanor Bourke: 1946
Nicknamed "Nonie," she maintains homes in Connecticut and Maine.
Married: Frederic Bourke Jr. [[divorced)

Josephine Ingle: 1949
Met her husband in college in the 1960s and moved to a rustic cabin in the Finger Lakes region of upstate New York. The couple own a vineyard producing award-winning Riesling wines.
Married: John Ingle Jr.

Alfred Brush Ford: 1950
He joined the Hare Krishna movement in 1974 and renamed himself Ambarish Das. He donated part of his fortune to convert a Grosse Pointe mansion into an ashram. Active in Ford corporate charities and investor in software firms.
Married: Sharmila Bhattacharya

Martha Parke Ford Morse: 1948
Called "Muff" by the family, she taught school in New York and married an investment banker. Has homes in Pennsylvania and Florida.
Married: Peter Morse

Sheila Firestone Hamp: 1951
An Ann Arbor resident and active in local charities and civic causes. Her husband, Steve Hamp, is president of The Henry Ford museum complex and a close adviser to Bill Ford Jr.
Married: Steve Hamp

William Clay Ford Jr.: 1957
Value: $34.5 million
Also owns 3.3 million shares of common stock
Value: $34.7 million
Chairman and CEO: Joined Ford after graduating from Princeton and was named a director in 1988. Left management in 1996 to head the board's powerful finance committee. Elected Ford's chairman in 1999, then ousted Jacques Nasser to become CEO two years later. Lives near Ann Arbor.
Married: Lisa Vanderzee

Elizabeth Kontulis: 1961
A Princeton graduate, she is active as a volunteer at The Henry Ford. Lives in Connecticut.
Married: Charles Kontulis

Fifth generation
The fifth generation has more than 30 members, many of whom live outside Michigan. The growing number of heirs -- the great-great-grandchildren of Henry Ford -- will challenge the family's efforts to maintain unity and control of the company. Elena Ford, 36, granddaughter of Henry Ford II, is the first fifth-generation family member to become an executive at the company. She lives in Grosse Pointe Farms.

[Gpwrangler]

Instead of spending your time drinking Kool Aid, you should read your own local newspaper.

My mother does every Thursday and she's shocked at what she sees. Her phone is ringing in the afternoon with calls from her friends who are still in GP when they read it.

Don't get mad at me for what goes on over there. It's your problem not mine. We love Bloomfield Hills!

When you move out on your own will you be able to afford a home in BH?

[SyGolden48236]

Elena Ford, 36, granddaughter of Henry Ford II, is the first fifth-generation family member to become an executive at the company. She lives in Grosse Pointe Farms.

Elena Ford, 48 years old, has lived in Birmingham since her divorce from Joe "The Plumbler" Rippolone.

[Gpwrangler]

Because the ones born at Bon Secours are not real Grosse Pointers. And if they're former GPers, then how would they know if anything has changed? What's your proof of anything going "downhill" for the Pointes? A rowdy kid at the high school? Kids going into the city to buy drugs? I had plenty of both of those at my private school and my community isn't going "downhill". The Pointes are still well off and will continue to be. Anyone who think Kercheval and Cadieux is about to become Gratiot and 7 Mile is painstakingly and embarrassingly trying to blow things out of proportion to "scare" us, e.g., Fox 2 News.

I suspect the biggest complainers [[or more likely their parents) had to leave here or got in trouble with the cops and can't let it go.

[SyGolden48236]

Instead of spending your time drinking Kool Aid, you should read your own local newspaper.

My mother does every Thursday and she's shocked at what she sees. Her phone is ringing in the afternoon with calls from her friends who are still in GP when they read it.

Don't get mad at me for what goes on over there. It's your problem not mine. We love Bloomfield Hills!

My mommy says........ so it must be true. And my mommy's friends say......

If your dear mother is "shocked" by what she reads in the G.P. News on Thursday then she has an incredibly low threshold for shock and is perhaps unaware of how the real world is these days. You would be well advised to keep her away from the Detroit News and Free Press because if she is shocked by the extremely minor crime in the Pointe then I fear that the sock she would feel upon hearing of the crime in Detroit could be fatal to her.

And I am not mad at you. On the contrary, I find you to be quite amusing.

You say "it is your problem, not mine". My family and I have no problem. We can stroll the lovely streets of the Pointe without fear of being beset upon by the bands of criminals you so ignorantly believe to be among us.

We have no check cashing stores, payday advance businesses, bail bond stores, wig shops, marijuana shops or other staples of ghetto life in the Pointe.

Grosse Pointe is doing just fine and it will endure as a fine residential community for many years to come. It is truly pitiful that you have such a large chip on your shoulder and such an ax to grind. It makes one wonder what your true agenda might be. But if it makes you feel better then please continue your online pontificating. Rational thinking people do not share your opinion.

[MAcc]

To see the future of Grosse Pointe, one only has to look at the Cleveland suburb of Shaker Heights.

Shaker circa the late 80s. Sounds a bit familiar... http://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/27/us...cleveland.html

Wow. I spent the last 30 minutes reading about Shaker Heights, OH. The way it echoes GP is eerie: Formerly best school public schools in the state, now a tier two or three district. Sky high taxes. Neighborhoods in the town turn sketchy, become havens for low-income rentals [[see: http://www.grossepointenews.com/Arti...forcement.html). The school district devastated by those renters and because the district accepts Cleveland proper residents [[ala Harper Woods residents attending GP North High).

[DetroitBoy]

'Sy' it's amazing that a few innocuous comments, all based on actual events reported by the media, unnerve you and a few others on this site to such a ferocous extent. In addition, it's an awfully low blow to attack a person's mother for her views on her hometown. It appears that is not very rational. Perhaps you aren't as secure about your neighborhood as you profess?

[MAcc]

The Pointes haven't held on any longer than Shaker Heights. It's been on a long, slow decline since the '90s. What goes on there hasn't been in the news much because it is supressed by the locals in an attempt to maintain the pristine image from the past. Unfortunately, a lot of the residents 'drink the Kool Aid" and believe this contrived image. With more and more of these unfortunate public incidents occuring and an overall lower and declining caliber of people moving in, the current and future state is very apparent. Ask any former native from GP [[real ones born at Cottage) and you will get a clear picture of how much it has changed. Most would encourage young families to look at Birmingham, Bloomfield or other nice places in Oakland county.

The data disagrees with you. The Pointes are holding on stronger than Shaker Heights. The Pointes are likely 10-12% black right now, Shaker Heights is nearly 37%. The Pointes have higher household income, home sale prices, advanced degree %, and lower crime. I think the questions to ask are why has GP held on longer? Is GP's future Shaker Heights?

I also ask you what makes you so sure Birmingham or Bloomfield Hills isn't next? How is the makeup of the people and leaders of those towns different from the people and makeup on the Pointes? I assume you'll say it's geography, in that the Pointes were doomed because they were trapped by east Detroit and then Harper Woods [[which is probably the most dramatic collapse of a town I've ever seen). But Birmingham has Southfield to the south and south Troy and Clawson aren't exactly tony...