plan to shut off water failed, next plan? just foreclose on them. 80k in wayne county

[That Great Guy]

In 1995, we saved SMART with a small property tax. This is now 2014 and there is just no excuse why we can't do the same for water as we did for buses.

I'm sure a small property tax can pay for everyone's water. We all pay the same for SMART and we CAN all pay the same for water too.

[Danny]

my solution is to cut detroit up into seperate cities.
let that land go back to the state. let them take care of it.

do you think forclosure and auctions will work in detroit?
wayne county has been doing auctions for a while now.
arent there still $1 houses for sale?
how many properties at auction arent sold each year?
i have not been paying attention, so depressing.

313WX brings up good points.
can your block take every 5th house being empty ?

Not going to happen! According the State Boundry Commission of 1948 [[ via The Charter Township Act.) once city or a village is incorporated. It can not be re-converted into sections villages or townships. Laws have to be changed for that to happen. Detroit must keep its regional borders for taxation purposes. That it why we have the regional authority to sought our water woes.

[Danny]

my solution is to cut detroit up into seperate cities.
let that land go back to the state. let them take care of it.

do you think forclosure and auctions will work in detroit?
wayne county has been doing auctions for a while now.
arent there still $1 houses for sale?
how many properties at auction arent sold each year?
i have not been paying attention, so depressing.

313WX brings up good points.
can your block take every 5th house being empty ?

Not going to happen! According the Michigan State Boundry Commission of 1948 [[ via The Charter Township Act.) once city or a village is incorporated, it can not be re-converted into sections villages or townships. Laws have to be changed for that to happen. Detroit must keep its regional borders for taxation purposes.

[Gpwrangler]

In 1995, we saved SMART with a small property tax. This is now 2014 and there is just no excuse why we can't do the same for water as we did for buses.

I'm sure a small property tax can pay for everyone's water. We all pay the same for SMART and we CAN all pay the same for water too.

Good idea. Make sure I get a refund check since I pay for my own shit.

[DetroitPlanner]

In 1995, we saved SMART with a small property tax. This is now 2014 and there is just no excuse why we can't do the same for water as we did for buses.

I'm sure a small property tax can pay for everyone's water. We all pay the same for SMART and we CAN all pay the same for water too.

Do you even read the thread before you post? The topic is foreclosures and selling off homes.

[That Great Guy]

Do you even read the thread before you post? The topic is foreclosures and selling off homes.

A small property tax for all of Wayne, Oakland and Macomb Counties can and should pay for all foreclosures, selling off homes in the City of Detroit AND all water bills for all three counties.

We are all one City and we all need water, housing and transportation.

Taxes should be based on need and not large salaries and luxuries for the rich and tax breaks for casino's and robber barons in my opinion.

[Gpwrangler]

A small property tax for all of Wayne, Oakland and Macomb Counties can and should pay for all foreclosures, selling off homes in the City of Detroit AND all water bills for all three counties.

We are all one City and we all need water, housing and transportation.

Taxes should be based on need and not large salaries and luxuries for the rich and tax breaks for casino's and robber barons in my opinion.

Reminds me of some of the responses you get when you post a craigslist ad, containing your ad jumbled up. For instance the next response might quote this one and say, "a small tax in Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb would cover all Craigslist purchases for all of Detroit"

[That Great Guy]

Reminds me of some of the responses you get when you post a craigslist ad, containing your ad jumbled up. For instance the next response might quote this one and say, "a small tax in Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb would cover all Craigslist purchases for all of Detroit"

That would be Communism Yeah, I know many posters here are just that but if we want freedom than allowing this must be allowed.

[Gpwrangler]

^^^^^^^^ lol

[Kevgoblue]

As a taxpaying citizen who has the pleasure of living in neighborhoods of the city that will be affected, I only have two questions:

1. What will happen to these people once their properties are foreclosed on? The suburbs certainly aren't going to welcome them and I highly doubt they'll suddenly start paying their bills.

2. Who will replace these people once their properties are foreclosed on? Won't the remaining residents simply have to contend with more abandoned properties that will further drag down their property values? Why would folks who pay their bills move into these homes when they can choose other communities that are much safer and offer better municipal services?

Are we just going to take the "let the chips fall where there may" approach we've been taking for the past 50 years?

This is the true issue. No matter how much of a "get tough" stance we take, the people who are not paying their bills will still exist. The only question is, where?

Given that most of the local suburbs will not be excited over the ideas of the non bill payers moving into their jurisdiction....where do they go? You can kick them out, but they won't disappear. They will merely be displaced and go someplace else.

So rather than continuously attacking the symptom [[people not paying their bills), at what time do we address the problem [[people not being economically functional members of the community)?

[corktownyuppie]

This is the true issue. No matter how much of a "get tough" stance we take, the people who are not paying their bills will still exist. The only question is, where?

Given that most of the local suburbs will not be excited over the ideas of the non bill payers moving into their jurisdiction....where do they go? You can kick them out, but they won't disappear. They will merely be displaced and go someplace else.

So rather than continuously attacking the symptom [[people not paying their bills), at what time do we address the problem [[people not being economically functional members of the community)?

I agree with the general sentiment of both you and 313WX. Though I have a few things that are a little bit different.

[[1) It's not clear what number of people truly cannot afford housing [[or water) and what number simply has chosen to prioritize their money incorrectly. I think that we may need to see this process through in order to really get a handle on who can afford their taxes [[and water) vs. which people are just trying to work the system.

[[2) In absolute terms, I don't think anyone -- rich or poor -- should be without water or shelter. HOWEVA. I do believe that the privilege of private homeownership -- as well as unlimited, purified, directly-delivered-to-every-spigot-in-your-house water -- needs to be reserved for those who have the economic means of supporting the financial costs of doing so.

We saw what happens when people don't pay their way. Services suffer. Infrastructure suffers. Everyone suffers.

Now out of both a) self-interest [[it does no good for me to be surrounded by people who lack access to shelter or water for obvious reasons) and b) moral obligation [[I think our society has enough resources that if we can alleviate the level of suffering we see in the 3rd worlds, we should), I believe that we do need to talk about a global solution for how we handle the poorest of the poor.

BUT....

That does *not*, in ANY terms, mean that I believe everyone should just be given a blank check on water service or on homeownership. This means that perhaps the people who cannot pay for water get rationed water supplies once per week the same way we used to pick up government cheese once a month. Maybe it means that the churches with a ton of money use their wealth to buy up a whole block of homes in foreclosure and use it to house the homeless. Maybe it means that that more people will have to share homes.

I think we can find solutions but we need to:

[[1) end the BS "we-are-entitled-to-have-things-because-we-are-accustomed-to-having-things" nonsense.

[[2) end the "out-of-principle-I-refuse-to-acknowledge-these-problems-nor-take-any-interest-or-responsibility-to-finding-a-creative-solution" yelling.

So if you're an admitted socialist, or if you're a card-carrying tea-party sympathizer, get the he** out of here. The rest of us are trying to find a way to make this city work. Both of the extreme, fundamental views here are not helpful.

Nobody wants another 80,000 abandoned homes or another 200,000 people in the street. We need to "let-the-chips-fall-where-they-may for a little while to see who is really poor and how many were using tax money [[which the city wasn't enforcing) to pay for cable [[which Comcast was enforcing).

Why would folks who pay their bills move into these homes when they can choose other communities that are much safer and offer better municipal services?

When prices get low enough, the people who have real money see an opportunity not just to buy a home, but to rebuild a neighborhood and make some money. And that's what needs to happen. Investors need to move in in order to create a tax base again.

at what time do we address the problem [[people not being economically functional members of the community)?

We need to set up systems to remediate individuals to help them become economically functional. Even if it's at the most elementary level, everyone can do something. There are streets full of trash that need cleaning. We have entire blocks that really need 24-hour patrol to stop theft. We have a light rail to build, trees to farm, even vegetables and produce to farm.

But at the same time, the people who aren't economically functional need to be interested in working. And for the people who simply don't want to change? Then they will be left behind, it's that simple.

[Willi]

Chart shows the MONTHLY water bills [[ it is mis-labeled as yearly ) across the country
Other cities have it much, much worse than Detroit, and you wonder how do they cope ?

Atlanta seems to be paying the real cost of infrastructure improvements in hard green cash

[That Great Guy]

Chart shows the MONTHLY water bills [[ it is mis-labeled as yearly ) across the country
Other cities have it much, much worse than Detroit, and you wonder how do they cope ?

Atlanta seems to be paying the real cost of infrastructure improvements in hard green cash

Even the deserts have more water than us.

[That Great Guy]

I agree with the general sentiment of both you and 313WX. Though I have a few things that are a little bit different.

[[1) It's not clear what number of people truly cannot afford housing [[or water) and what number simply has chosen to prioritize their money incorrectly. I think that we may need to see this process through in order to really get a handle on who can afford their taxes [[and water) vs. which people are just trying to work the system.

[[2) In absolute terms, I don't think anyone -- rich or poor -- should be without water or shelter. HOWEVA. I do believe that the privilege of private homeownership -- as well as unlimited, purified, directly-delivered-to-every-spigot-in-your-house water -- needs to be reserved for those who have the economic means of supporting the financial costs of doing so.

We saw what happens when people don't pay their way. Services suffer. Infrastructure suffers. Everyone suffers.

Now out of both a) self-interest [[it does not good for me to be surrounded by people who lack access to shelter or water for obvious reasons) and b) moral obligation [[I think our society has enough resources that if we can alleviate the level of suffering we see in the 3rd worlds, we should), I believe that we do need to talk about a global solution for how we handle the poorest of the poor.

BUT....

That does *not*, in ANY terms, mean that I believe everyone should just be given a blank check on water service or on homeownership. This means that perhaps the people who cannot pay for water get rationed water supplies once per week the same way we used to pick up government cheese once a month. Maybe it means that the churches with a ton of money use their wealth to buy up a whole block of homes in foreclosure and use it to house the homeless. Maybe it means that that more people will have to share homes.

I think we can find solutions but we need to:

[[1) end the BS "we-are-entitled-to-have-things-because-we-are-accustomed-to-having-things" nonsense.

[[2) end the "out-of-principle-I-refuse-to-acknowledge-these-problems-nor-take-any-interest-or-responsibility-to-finding-a-creative-solution" yelling.

So if you're an admitted socialist, or if you're a card-carrying tea-party sympathizer, get the he** out of here. The rest of us are trying to find a way to make this city work. Both of the extreme, fundamental views here are not helpful.

Nobody wants another 80,000 abandoned homes or another 200,000 people in the street. We need to "let-the-chips-fall-where-they-may for a little while to see who is really poor and how many were using tax money [[which the city wasn't enforcing) to pay for cable [[which Comcast was enforcing).



[/I][/COLOR]When prices get low enough, the people who have real money see an opportunity not just to buy a home, but to rebuild a neighborhood and make some money. And that's what needs to happen. Investors need to move in in order to create a tax base again.



[/COLOR]We need to set up systems to remediate individuals to help them become economically functional. Even if it's at the most elementary level, everyone can do something. There are streets full of trash that need cleaning. We have entire blocks that really need 24-hour patrol to stop theft. We have a light rail to build, trees to farm, even vegetables and produce to farm.

But at the same time, the people who aren't economically functional need to be interested in working. And for the people who simply don't want to change? Then they will be left behind, it's that simple.

We have a light rail to build? Really?

There must be something in your water?

How about voting in leaders who can bring real jobs that pay a decent wage with benefits to Detroit? Why can't Detroit snag a large manufacturing plant like other cities do?

[compn]

@corktownyuppie, great post.

your idea to have the city/county work with tax dodgers to keep people in their homes instead of foreclose on them would be cheaper to implement, generate more revenue-and be faster than a foreclosure/auction. it would be better for the city than adding to the homeless population and having more empty, scrapper and fire targets.

unfortunately , in 2009 during the housing apocalypse, we've seen that that option has gone out of the window. seems like the banks were all too happy to foreclose and sit on empty properties. as far as i can see into the future, it doesnt look like wayne county will attempt to do anything differently.

[compn]

how bout reverse mortgages? i know they are the worst things ever, but then so is a foreclosure.

[corktownyuppie]

We have a light rail to build? Really?

There must be something in your water?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, so I don't have a response.

How about voting in leaders who can bring real jobs that pay a decent wage with benefits to Detroit? Why can't Detroit snag a large manufacturing plant like other cities do?

I'm not sure the jobs you are talking about even exist in the the numbers you'd like them to. But even if they did exist, the reasons why manufacturers are not interested in coming here have been well-known for a long time.

- Rampant absenteeism
- Rampant substance abuse
- Mediocre work ethic at best
- Rampant absenteeism

Did I mention rampant absenteeism and mediocre work ethic? Absenteeism in city employment is so bad that on any given day, 30% of the employees call in.

“We have 30% more employees than we need, only because we know that 30% won’t come into work everyday. You can’t operate like that,” Brown said.

But it's not that surprising. The culture of absenteeism goes all the way back to when people are in school.

Detroit Public Schools ranked last among 21 big-city districts in attendance rates, according to a study that linked absenteeism to poor performance on the National Assessment for Educational Progress exam.
The study by Attendance Works found 30 percent of DPS fourth-graders and 33 percent of eighth-graders missed three or more days of school the month before taking the NAEP in 2013. Students who missed that much time scored 9 points lower, on average, than students who missed no class time.


“In Detroit, for instance, about a third of the students reported missing three or more days in the past month, compared to the 20 percent national average,” the study said.


From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz3GV1TCOV1

Now what is the solution to this? I don't know. But I think the first step is to understand that WE need to change as a community before OTHERS will be interested in moving to Detroit and employing us in large numbers.

[Honky Tonk]

I'm not sure what you mean by this, so I don't have a response.




I'm not sure the jobs you are talking about even exist in the the numbers you'd like them to. But even if they did exist, the reasons why manufacturers are not interested in coming here have been well-known for a long time.

- Rampant absenteeism
- Rampant substance abuse
- Mediocre work ethic at best
- Rampant absenteeism

Did I mention rampant absenteeism and mediocre work ethic? Absenteeism in city employment is so bad that on any given day, 30% of the employees call in.



But it's not that surprising. The culture of absenteeism goes all the way back to when people are in school.



Now what is the solution to this? I don't know. But I think the first step is to understand that WE need to change as a community before OTHERS will be interested in moving to Detroit and employing us in large numbers.[/FONT][/COLOR]

FINALLY! More honesty, less wank.

[Richard]

We have a light rail to build? Really?

There must be something in your water?

How about voting in leaders who can bring real jobs that pay a decent wage with benefits to Detroit? Why can't Detroit snag a large manufacturing plant like other cities do?

Because as seen on here most residents seem to be more excited about turning a factory into lofts and nightclubs showing that's what they support.

One was rezoned industrial to insure its use as a job producing factory but because of the cry to demolish became so loud it was rushed to sale to become a go cart track,I guess a attendant there could command a livable wage.

Do not pay your property tax for 3 years and the house comes up for tax sale is common across the country as is liens and possiable sale for not paying your water bill,if you do not then what is the incentive to pay and then those who do pay for everybody else for services,CoD does not seem to have that problem.

Seems like a lot of things people are freaking out about is the city catching up with the rest of the country,that in itself is a good thing and progress.

[Cliffy]

I totally agree. People are more excited about some bar or restaurant opening up here with minimum wage jobs then say some factory.

[sumas]

I must say that the complete lack of empathy, sympathy and comprehension of underlying issues on this thread regarding water bills/shut off issues completely underwhelm me.

Nope just pretty much the usual whine that all Detroiters are dead beats. Whine/slam Detroit/whine/whine/whine. Those posts are just dead boring! Believe whatever you want.

It is complex but of course much easier to say Detroit is peopled with deadbeats. Why tax your brain. Too much fun instead to cast blame. I could write a screen play based on stupid un or ill informed opinions but damn, the title clueless is already taken.

[Gpwrangler]

I must say that the complete lack of empathy, sympathy and comprehension of underlying issues on this thread regarding water bills/shut off issues completely underwhelm me.

Nope just pretty much the usual whine that all Detroiters are dead beats. Whine/slam Detroit/whine/whine/whine. Those posts are just dead boring! Believe whatever you want.

It is complex but of course much easier to say Detroit is peopled with deadbeats. Why tax your brain. Too much fun instead to cast blame. I could write a screen play based on stupid un or ill informed opinions but damn, the title clueless is already taken.

Seems to go both ways. There's plenty of whining about the adjacent communities on here.

So, what's your proposal to deal with the water shut offs?

[Dan Wesson]

Seems to go both ways. There's plenty of whining about the adjacent communities on here.

So, what's your proposal to deal with the water shut offs?

Why a good old fashioned Biblical type Debt Jubilee, only every year!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_%28biblical%29

[Wesley Mouch]

This is the true issue. No matter how much of a "get tough" stance we take, the people who are not paying their bills will still exist. The only question is, where?

Given that most of the local suburbs will not be excited over the ideas of the non bill payers moving into their jurisdiction....where do they go? You can kick them out, but they won't disappear. They will merely be displaced and go someplace else.

So rather than continuously attacking the symptom [[people not paying their bills), at what time do we address the problem [[people not being economically functional members of the community)?

Some of them will pay their water bill, and stay right where they are. My guess is that at least 40% of those who are delinquent could pay. Maybe its only 10%. But even 10% reduction in delinquencies would make a difference.

[Dan Wesson]

This is the true issue. No matter how much of a "get tough" stance we take, the people who are not paying their bills will still exist. The only question is, where?

Leviticus 25:3

“If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you.