PIRG: I-94 Project One of the Worst "Highway Boondoggles"

[ghettopalmetto]

Very very true. A good example would be the Trumbull to I-94W on ramp... All they need to really do is resurface the ramp, extend the merging lane and voila, we're golden. Same goes for a lot of the supposed "boondoggles" that Dale Earnhardt up there keeps mentioning.

There is no God-given right to travel 70+ mph on every stretch of freeway at all hours of the day. That seems to be the primary justification of this project, though.

So really, it just cracks me up. MDOT will cry that I-94 needs to be resurfaced [[as if that costs $2.7 billion), but ignore that other [[you know, "OTHER") state roads like Woodward, Gratiot and Grand River might need resurfacing too. By creating more pavement through network expansion, they're just extending the backlog of maintenance.

[313WX]

There is no God-given right to travel 70+ mph on every stretch of freeway at all hours of the day. That seems to be the primary justification of this project, though.

So really, it just cracks me up. MDOT will cry that I-94 needs to be resurfaced [[as if that costs $2.7 billion), but ignore that other [[you know, "OTHER") state roads like Woodward, Gratiot and Grand River might need resurfacing too. By creating more pavement through network expansion, they're just extending the backlog of maintenance.

Both portions of Woodward [[where the M-1 rail will) and Gratiot [[from I-94 to 8 Mile) are being resurfaced as I type this post...

The portion of Gratiot that was repaved with concrete a few years ago, from I-94 to downtown, IMO can go for a few more years without resurfacing. Gratiot, BTW, lost a driving lane when this resurfacing was done...

[motz]

So really, it just cracks me up. MDOT will cry that I-94 needs to be resurfaced [[as if that costs $2.7 billion), but ignore that other [[you know, "OTHER") state roads like Woodward, Gratiot and Grand River might need resurfacing too. By creating more pavement through network expansion, they're just extending the backlog of maintenance.

One must continue justifying their existence, and their budget growth. While things are getting more expensive, they want to keep the tax dollars flowing by creating these projects, knowing that if they do not compete as hard as possible against other state departments, the money might just be cut from their budget and used to fund tax breaks for "small business owners"

[Gpwrangler]

There is no God-given right to travel 70+ mph on every stretch of freeway at all hours of the day. That seems to be the primary justification of this project, though.

I know that's scary fast for some people on here but 30 is too slow. MDOT has a duty to improve roads for drivers and commuters. Good roads improve commerce and support the economy. Even my neighbor who drives a Prius says they're needed.

You guys need to write letters to MDOT, not bitch at me.

[iheartthed]

I know that's scary fast for some people on here but 30 is too slow. MDOT has a duty to improve roads for drivers and commuters. Good roads improve commerce and support the economy. Even my neighbor who drives a Prius says they're needed.

You guys need to write letters to MDOT, not bitch at me.

They're bitching at you because you keep making these stupid ass illogical arguments in support of this boondoggle.

[313WX]

I know that's scary fast for some people on here but 30 is too slow. MDOT has a duty to improve roads for drivers and commuters. Good roads improve commerce and support the economy. Even my neighbor who drives a Prius says they're needed.

Since when did "needing good roads" equate to spending billions of dollars to widen a freeway that doesn't NEED to be widened?

[Gpwrangler]

They're bitching at you because you keep making these stupid ass illogical arguments in support of this boondoggle.

Good. Keep it up, see what it accomplishes.

[Bham1982]

Since when did "needing good roads" equate to spending billions of dollars to widen a freeway that doesn't NEED to be widened?

It needs to be widened. It's a regional benefit that is only about 1000x more beneficial than the downtown toonerville trolley.

[313WX]

It needs to be widened. It's a regional benefit that is only about 1000x more beneficial than the downtown toonerville trolley.

I'm also against the M-1 Light Rail, FYI.

[Gpwrangler]

I'm also against the M-1 Light Rail, FYI.

So what should transportation look like in the next 10 years? Got a plan to get those cars off I94?

[ghettopalmetto]

It needs to be widened. It's a regional benefit that is only about 1000x more beneficial than the downtown toonerville trolley.

Traffic has decreased. How does adding $4 billion worth of freeway lanes help anything?

I mean, if widening freeways helps anything, let's just make all the freeways 100 freaking lanes wide. That should be enough to kickstart Detroit, right?

City of the future! Who wouldn't want to live in a beautiful place like this?

[iheartthed]

Traffic has decreased. How does adding $4 billion worth of freeway lanes help anything?

I mean, if widening freeways helps anything, let's just make all the freeways 100 freaking lanes wide. That should be enough to kickstart Detroit, right?

If freeways translated into good economies then Detroit would be Silicon Valley right now. It is completely nonsensical to suggest that Detroit needs to spend a single dime adding more freeway lanes.

[Gpwrangler]

If freeways translated into good economies then Detroit would be Silicon Valley right now. It is completely nonsensical to suggest that Detroit needs to spend a single dime adding more freeway lanes.

What's really nonsensical is to look at I94 and say it's OK as is. Absolutely ridiculous.

[ghettopalmetto]

What's really nonsensical is to look at I94 and say it's OK as is. Absolutely ridiculous.

It's been functioning just fine for over 50 years, and without any increase in population. Why does it suddenly need to be widened now? You haven't quite made that clear.

[iheartthed]

What's really nonsensical is to look at I94 and say it's OK as is. Absolutely ridiculous.

I've driven I-94 for years and never had a problem with it getting me from point A to point B.

[Gpwrangler]

I've driven I-94 for years and never had a problem with it getting me from point A to point B.

Lmfao. Whatever.

[Wesley Mouch]

It's been functioning just fine for over 50 years, and without any increase in population. Why does it suddenly need to be widened now? You haven't quite made that clear.

Suddenly? Its been in the works for 20 years. This is very clearly part of the regular goings-on of MDOT. They are doing their job. You may not like the answer, you may not like the process -- but its pretty clear that this is no 'sudden' decision - but one done with great forethought. You can disagree with them, their mandate, their conclusions of need, and their goals to make highways more standard. But you can't say it was 'sudden'.

So why does it hurt? The money can't be redirected at this point -- only sent elsewhere to build roads. Detroit is easily able to absorb the land. The landowners have had at least a decade to get ready for this. This doesn't create a problem with urban fabric, although it does make it slightly worse. But other than that, I don't see any objection coming from you or others except that there's a wondrous future without freeways and with surface congestion again like in the 50s and 60s where everyone walks to the light-rail and is free from cancer too. You can and should promote your vision. And I agree with you on urban fabric and our over-reliance on freeways. However fighting the most obvious need to improvement on moral grounds reduces your moral standing on future projects where it'll really be needed. Now go and get I-375 killed, obliterate the Lodge S of 75, and destroy the Fisher from Chrysler to the Bridge. And I'll pick up rocks and go toss them at bulldozers with you.

[313WX]

So what should transportation look like in the next 10 years? Got a plan to get those cars off I94?

Ideally, MDOT and the RTA should be dilligently laying out the realistic plan for an extensive rapid transit system to cover the entire metro area and also courting the Obama Administration so perhaps some other federal funds [[that aren't earmarked for the interstate highways) can be dedicated towards it.

Given Detroit's ongoing [[and so far smooth) bankruptcy proceeding, the fact that everyone in the metro area seems to be more open to regionalization, and talks of the city's supposed rebirth, this would be a great time for the aforementioned to happen.

It was tried before in the 70s and 80s, but we ultimately only got The People Mover out of the deal.

[ghettopalmetto]

Suddenly? Its been in the works for 20 years. This is very clearly part of the regular goings-on of MDOT.

Yes, and the most recent justification was that MDOT predicted a significant increase in Vehicle Miles Traveled. [[Why you double the number of lanes for a 15% increase in traffic is another story).

Not only has that increase failed to manifest, but Vehicle Miles Traveled have decreased since the initial proposal. Hence, the alleged raison d'etre doesn't even exist in the real world.

[That Great Guy]

Ideally, MDOT and the RTA should be dilligently laying out the realistic plan for an extensive rapid transit system to cover the entire metro area and also courting the Obama Administration so perhaps some other federal funds [[that aren't earmarked for the interstate highways) can be dedicated towards it.

Given Detroit's ongoing [[and so far smooth) bankruptcy proceeding, the fact that everyone in the metro area seems to be more open to regionalization, and talks of the city's supposed rebirth, this would be a great time for the aforementioned to happen.

It was tried before in the 70s and 80s, but we ultimately only got The People Mover out of the deal.

The RTA and the Transportation Riders United are the ones who have supported the large freeways the most.

The proof is their support of Tax Shifting by abolishing the tax on fuel for community transit and the large buses.

The $27 Million raised last August for SMART per year, replaces CTF funds and there is a PDF document showing the SMART expenses. Also, the split between DDOT and SMART was eliminated and that too is proof that these monsters are wanted by transit tax advocates in exchange for big tax increase without concessions from MDOT and the trucking industries.

The TRU, MOSES, SEMCOG and many other organizations are Paving the Way for more concrete.

The cause to get federal and state money from taxes on fuel for mass transit is lost. The union jobs at SMART and DDOT now have your local property, sales and license fee money etched in Stone forever.

The question now is? How much higher do y'all want your property taxes? Will 3 Mil do ya? How bout a County Sales at 1 percent with another cut to MDOT?

I'm fighting the monsters and am planning on losing cuz I have no support. I can't beat the TRU and I'm not joining them. I'd rather fight and lose on these job destroying things that eat up bus service and put safety not just in last place but DEAD last.

[Gpwrangler]

Unfortunately the prime rail lines out of detroit are abandoned. Trackage to Port Huron could be doubled for passenger service with stops along 94. The line up Mound Rd could be used also. Put tracks back in toward Romeo. Maybe bus service to work places from there. But who's gonna ride it? Chicago has Metra. Do the same here and I'll give it a try. Smart bus? I'll chose the car instead.

[That Great Guy]

Unfortunately the prime rail lines out of detroit are abandoned. Trackage to Port Huron could be doubled for passenger service with stops along 94. The line up Mound Rd could be used also. Put tracks back in toward Romeo. Maybe bus service to work places from there. But who's gonna ride it? Chicago has Metra. Do the same here and I'll give it a try. Smart bus? I'll chose the car instead.

If SMART fought for state CTF funds, they could double the ridership and fare box money.

But why? when they can just sit around and collect welfare. The property tax is nothing but a charity to get grandma to the doctor's office.

Hell will likely freeze over before Detroit sees a decent bus system, if we don't fight these freeways.

[Wesley Mouch]

Yes, and the most recent justification was that MDOT predicted a significant increase in Vehicle Miles Traveled. [[Why you double the number of lanes for a 15% increase in traffic is another story).

Not only has that increase failed to manifest, but Vehicle Miles Traveled have decreased since the initial proposal. Hence, the alleged raison d'etre doesn't even exist in the real world.

from 3 to 4 lanes is 33% increase, not doubling. [[I know your logic -- no need to repeat it)

But let's grant you the point.

Doesn't matter.

Refuting a single point as patently untrue does not justify tossing out the baby with the bathwater. The baby also relied on the age of the existing infranstructure.

You attack individual points, but you have not proposed an alternative. Bring on the alternative.

[ghettopalmetto]

Refuting a single point as patently untrue does not justify tossing out the baby with the bathwater. The baby also relied on the age of the existing infranstructure.

You attack individual points, but you have not proposed an alternative. Bring on the alternative.

So, debunking the sole stated justification for a widening means...we should widen I-94 anyway? I'm confused. You want to spend $2.7 Billion just because?

The creation of two additional through-lanes on each side of the freeway [[the service drives), can't simply be ignored out of convenience. Those service drives are additional roadway capacity, cost money, and are the primary drivers of the proposed property seizures and building demolitions. In other words--the proposed service drives are the single-most destructive aspect of the entire project.

An honest and objective engineer reviews his conclusions when the facts change. MDOT is anything but honest and objective. They have a dogmatic ideology, and they're going to ram it down your throat regardless of consequences, reality be damned.

[Gpwrangler]

So, debunking the sole stated justification for a widening means...we should widen I-94 anyway? I'm confused. You want to spend $2.7 Billion just because?

The creation of two additional through-lanes on each side of the freeway [[the service drives), can't simply be ignored out of convenience. Those service drives are additional roadway capacity, cost money, and are the primary drivers of the proposed property seizures and building demolitions. In other words--the proposed service drives are the single-most destructive aspect of the entire project.

An honest and objective engineer reviews his conclusions when the facts change. MDOT is anything but honest and objective. They have a dogmatic ideology, and they're going to ram it down your throat regardless of consequences, reality be damned.

So leave out the service drives.