PIRG: I-94 Project One of the Worst "Highway Boondoggles"

[That Great Guy]

Where's the federal requirement to take private property, demolish dozens of homes and buildings, eliminate 11 bridges, and construct an additional 84-foot width of pavement? I must have missed that part.

And I'll agree that traffic has changed. Vehicle-miles traveled have decreased 14% since MDOT resuscitated this 1950s fantasy in 2003.

MDOT won't be happy until all of Southeast Michigan looks like this:

Attachment 24581

Also, the Transportation Riders United TRU All they care about is milking the taxpayers like a bunch of cows just like MDOT. This is fine, IF/??? they stopped the bus service reductions and actually maintained existing transit needs. But, NO it BIG pay raises and BIG freeways and fast trains to Chicago.

Maybe the taxpayers will get SMART and ask?? what am I really paying for?

Look at Sao Paulo, Brazil. That is the future of Detroit if MDOT, SEMCOG, SMART, DDOT, the NEW RTA and the TRU get their way. Forget about the average worker, we will get that Million baseball player to Detroit on AirRide, thanks to Danny voting YES, YES, YES.

[Gpwrangler]

Also, the Transportation Riders United TRU All they care about is milking the taxpayers like a bunch of cows just like MDOT. This is fine, IF/??? they stopped the bus service reductions and actually maintained existing transit needs. But, NO it BIG pay raises and BIG freeways and fast trains to Chicago.

Maybe the taxpayers will get SMART and ask?? what am I really paying for?

Look at Sao Paulo, Brazil. That is the future of Detroit if MDOT, SEMCOG, SMART, DDOT, the NEW RTA and the TRU get their way. Forget about the average worker, we will get that Million baseball player to Detroit on AirRide, thanks to Danny voting YES, YES, YES.

Whoa, what did I miss?

[EastsideAl]

if you don't want a canyon, fight the canyon. Don't fight the widening. Sure, widening drives canyon. But it could be minimized and/or mitigated. Fighting federal investment in Detroit is not the right way.

I don't have any problem with turning down federal DOT money, or M-DOT money for that matter, if it is going to do more harm than good. Somewhere along the line someone has to stand up for more enlightened transportation and urban planning policies and stop this mad course we're on.

Detroit wouldn't even be the first city to do it. Again, truly progressive cities all over the country and the world are getting rid of urban freeways, or trying to mitigate their impact and working to reduce their use.

http://grist.org/infrastructure/off-...erican-cities/
Part of an interview with John Norquist, former mayor of Milwaukee [[during his term the Park East Expressway was eliminated), and until this year head of the Congress for the New Urbanism, in which he discusses urban highway removal, and the effect of freeways on cities, with particular reference to Detroit.

Key quote:
"The goal ought to be: What adds value to society? What adds value to the economy? If you look at the richest places in America, they’re the most congested."

[Wesley Mouch]

I don't have any problem with turning down federal DOT money, or M-DOT money for that matter, if it is going to do more harm than good. Somewhere along the line someone has to stand up for more enlightened transportation and urban planning policies and stop this mad course we're on.

Detroit wouldn't even be the first city to do it. Again, truly progressive cities all over the country and the world are getting rid of urban freeways, or trying to mitigate their impact and working to reduce their use.

http://grist.org/infrastructure/off-ramp-how-demolishing-freeways-is-reviving-american-cities
Key quote:
"The goal ought to be: What adds value to society? What adds value to the economy? If you look at the richest places in America, they’re the most congested."

You might recall that I've posted in strong favor of congestion. We agree there. Congestion is a sign of demand, and for that it is good.

I am also an advocate of elimination of many urban freeways. I-375 should go for sure. I would eliminate the I75 between the 94/75 interchange and the Bridge plaza, and run 75 up to 94 and then across.

So we aren't as far apart as we might think.

But I don't see that THE major crosstown freeway is the candidate for elimination. So if it stays, it should be excellent.

Rethinking how freeways and cities 'intersect' is important. Good luck with your fight. I hope it helps bring us a better I94.

[DetroitPlanner]

Where's the federal requirement to take private property, demolish dozens of homes and buildings, eliminate 11 bridges, and construct an additional 84-foot width of pavement? I must have missed that part.

And I'll agree that traffic has changed. Vehicle-miles traveled have decreased 14% since MDOT resuscitated this 1950s fantasy in 2003.

MDOT won't be happy until all of Southeast Michigan looks like this:

Attachment 24581

Hey look at this, the Feds approve! They have signed off on this.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/MD...s_117954_7.pdf

[ABetterDetroit]

I don't have any problem with turning down federal DOT money, or M-DOT money for that matter, if it is going to do more harm than good. Somewhere along the line someone has to stand up for more enlightened transportation and urban planning policies and stop this mad course we're on.

No sweat, I won't even bring up job killing or taxes never going into government coffers right here in southeast Michigan because obviously you know what's best and probably have a few billion to pump into our economy with damn good ideas.

Everyone knows that this "concrete canyon" already exists right now today and it is filled with a shit load of semi tractor trailers and we are talking about billions of federal dollars right? Ok just checking. Sometimes I wonder if peeps get numb to dollar amounts and confuse say 3.5mill or 350 mill or even 3.5 billion.

[Gistok]

Ya know.... I was going to put my 2 cents in on this thread in response to everyone else's comments.... but I thought to myself... "why bother?"


Mine and most everyone's opinon's were already stated in this 14 page thread here...
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...iden-I-94-I-75

...or in this 27 page thread here....
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...roit-s-Future)

... or in this 3 page thread here...
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...-Metro-Detroit

... or on countless other threads all over DYES....

With so many threads already saying the same thing over and over and over again... was it really necessary to start another one?

Oh wait... maybe Lowell can start an I-94/I-75 SUPER THREAD!!

[nain rouge]

The more I think about it, the roads industry in this country operates a lot like the military-industrial complex. It's just another big government bureaucracy that, in its own self-interest, can never declare a job done. It has to keep finding new threats to promote its growth, in this case the very congestion it implicitly encourages with its freeways and road widening projects.

Enough is enough.

And I'm tried of everyone acting like Fed money is free money. Those are our tax dollars, and if we keep spending so wantonly it's eventually going to hurt the economy in a bad way.

[Gpwrangler]

Maybe we'd rather spend money on repairing all of our roads, than expanding two that really aren't necessary outside of making the commute to and from Detroit easier? I would rather they take that massive amount of money that they claim they don't have to fix our roads and put it towards, uhhhh, fixing our roads.

The only benefit expanding these freeways will have is helping keep the suburbs viable. Less commute time to Rochester or Romulus or Grosse Pointe Parke or wherever means that it will remain a very attractive option for those who work downtown/in the city....
Edit - I reverse commute. AM is Detroit->Troy, evening is Troy->Detroit. I have no problem with the often frustrating traffic because I, as a reasonable human being who is aware his actions and their consequences, understood and accepted everything that comes along with commuting.

When you reverse commute take a look at the other side of the freeway. It sucks. The average speed is 30 or so and it frequently stops.

Freeways need to handle traffic at peak periods, from the suburbs to wherever people work. They are called "interstates" because they handle freight, trucks etc through the city, not just to it.

I've seen two cars - one on the freeway and one merging, run into each other because people don't know you have to accelerate to merge. Improving the freeway won't fix this but an extra lane to get around this stupidity would help. So would longer entrance ramps even though some people putz along a 1/2 mile long merge ramp hoping the "magic blinker" will move traffic over for them.

[313WX]

When you reverse commute take a look at the other side of the freeway. It sucks. The average speed is 30 or so and it frequently stops.

I reverse commute as well to Dearborn, but I live on the east side. So given that I have a crosstown reverse commute, I still deal with the "congestion" into downtown/midtown on I-94 everyday.

As I stated before, it only takes me 5 minutes on a typical day to get from Conner to I-75 on I-94. Traffic is typically moving at posted speeds as well, aside from the occasional stop & go.

Even coming home, it takes maybe 5-10 minutes max on a typical day to get from I-75 to Chalmers. And yet again, aside from the occasional stop & go, traffic still moves at posted speeds.

I hardly consider it a bad thing to traverse 5-10 miles in a major city during rush hour in only 5-10 minutes. In fact, Americans in any other major city would consider that a blessing. But that's just my perspective.

I just don't think spending billions of dollars to build additional lanes [[that we'll have to spend more money we don't have to maintain) on a freeway that otherwise moves at posted speeds during rush hour [[aside from the occasional stop and go) is a wise investment...

[ghettopalmetto]

Hey look at this, the Feds approve! They have signed off on this.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/MD...s_117954_7.pdf

Well, they signed off on the EIS. But a lot can change in 10 years, yes? The hallmark of sound engineering practice is the ability to adapt to changing parameters [[such as a decrease in driving). MDOT takes a dogmatic approach--additional lanes is always an "improvement", no matter what.

I see that this project is *so* important to the federal government, that they haven't funded it yet. And given the state of the Highway Trust Fund, it's likely they never will.

[Hermod]

I reverse commute as well to Dearborn, but I live on the east side. So given that I have a crosstown reverse commute, I still deal with the "congestion" into downtown/midtown on I-94 everyday.

As I stated before, it only takes me 5 minutes on a typical day to get from Conner to I-75 on I-94. Traffic is typically moving at posted speeds as well, aside from the occasional stop & go.

Even coming home, it takes maybe 5-10 minutes max on a typical day to get from I-75 to Chalmers. And yet again, aside from the occasional stop & go, traffic still moves at posted speeds.

I hardly consider it a bad thing to traverse 5-10 miles in a major city during rush hour in only 5-10 minutes. In fact, Americans in any other major city would consider that a blessing. But that's just my perspective.

I just don't think spending billions of dollars to build additional lanes [[that we'll have to spend more money we don't have to maintain) on a freeway that otherwise moves at posted speeds during rush hour [[aside from the occasional stop and go) is a wise investment...

I used to live in Lorton, VA just off the Backlick Road entrance to I-95 and I worked at King Street and I-395 [[10-12 miles). On a normal day, going to work was 45 minutes and coming home was close to an hour. If I went into the office around 7:30AM on a Saturday morning, it took ten minutes.

[erikd]

Windsor is building a new freeway to handle the increase in international traffic.

"Upon completion, the Parkway will ensure the safe and efficient movement of people, goods and services to and from a proposed new Canadian inspection plaza and international bridge, separate local and international traffic, and eliminate stop-and-go traffic in residential areas. - See more at: http://www.hgparkway.ca/#sthash.QAltWSFg.dpuf"

http://www.hgparkway.ca/

The fact that you don't know what is going on in your own backyard yet you criticize projects here is amazing.

The new Windsor freeway and international bridge to Detroit is designed to reduce the bottleneck at the existing Detroit-Windsor Ambassador bridge crossing, which currently forces a lot of international truck traffic to go out of the way, cross at Sarnia/Port Huron, and then come down I-94 through Detroit.

Once the new Windsor freeway, NITC, and direct I-75 connection is built, the expansion of I-94 in Detroit, for the purpose of easing international truck traffic, becomes moot. When trucks from Canada cross the new Detroit-Windor bridge, they will be mostly be traveling south on 75, or west on 96 or 94. The section of 94 that is being expanded just leads back east towards the Port Huron/Sarnia border crossing. How many trucks will be crossing the new Detroit-Windsor bridge from Canada just to head east on 94 and go back to Canada?

Why would we spend billions to widen 94 east when we are building a whole new bridge and 401-to-75 freeway connection for the purpose of re-routing truck traffic off of that section of 94?

One of the major reasons for the plan to widen 94 was the construction of the new twin-span Blue Water Bridge in the 90s. At that point, there was no serious plan to build a new bridge between Detroit and Windsor, so the 94 widening plan made more sense as part of a larger transportation scheme. However, the plan has changed, and now that we are building a new border crossing in Detroit, the 94 widening project just isn't worth the money.

[DetroitPlanner]

Once the new Windsor freeway, NITC, and direct I-75 connection is built, the expansion of I-94 in Detroit, for the purpose of easing international truck traffic, becomes moot. When trucks from Canada cross the new Detroit-Windor bridge, they will be mostly be traveling south on 75, or west on 96 or 94. The section of 94 that is being expanded just leads back east towards the Port Huron/Sarnia border crossing. How many trucks will be crossing the new Detroit-Windsor bridge from Canada just to head east on 94 and go back to Canada?

Why would we spend billions to widen 94 east when we are building a whole new bridge and 401-to-75 freeway connection for the purpose of re-routing truck traffic off of that section of 94?

NITC is not the only crossing. As you mentioned, the Blue Water Bridge customs plaza is also being expanded. Trucks have to be coming from somewhere are Port Huron certainly is not large enough to generate that need. There are trucks from the E side that need to get to the 401 to get to places like Windsor and there are also trucks that need to get to HWY 402. You are not looking at this in its totality. Regardless of freight, that is only one piece. The road is old, it cannot be rebuilt the way it is now, it is an interstate and the feds will not allow it. The feds want the operations to be improved, it to be safer, and the bridges raised in height. It is a federal need and the feds are picking up the cost of most of it.

The planning for the widening of I-94 happened well after the twinning of the Blue Water Bridge. The Blue Water bridge opened in 1993. The EIS for I-94 was signed 15-20 year later.

I swear sometimes I read this website and think, if these folks were posting and complaining about changing Campus Martius we would still have that dangerous no man's land in the middle of downtown.

[Detroitnerd]

if you don't want a canyon, fight the canyon. Don't fight the widening. Sure, widening drives canyon. But it could be minimized and/or mitigated. Fighting federal investment in Detroit is not the right way.

That's completely ridiculous. Also you miss the point entirely. I am against the widening.

As for "federal investment," the federal government can and does invest in things that communities do not want. This is a perfect example of that.

[motz]

When you reverse commute take a look at the other side of the freeway. It sucks. The average speed is 30 or so and it frequently stops.

Freeways need to handle traffic at peak periods, from the suburbs to wherever people work. They are called "interstates" because they handle freight, trucks etc through the city, not just to it.

I've seen two cars - one on the freeway and one merging, run into each other because people don't know you have to accelerate to merge. Improving the freeway won't fix this but an extra lane to get around this stupidity would help. So would longer entrance ramps even though some people putz along a 1/2 mile long merge ramp hoping the "magic blinker" will move traffic over for them.

So, we spend billions of dollars to make a bunch of people who can't handle the absolute basics of driving's lives easier? No. No, you don't cater to the dumbest of the crowd. If they don't know how to drive, that's their fault. If they don't know that you DON'T constantly have to brake and change lanes every five seconds, well too bad. I personally think we should have to take refresher courses on this type of crap, rather than cater to George who doesn't know how to accelerate or Tim who is too busy sexting his mistress to pay attention to the road. Stop supporting bad habits when they are convenient to you. The same people who preach about ending social welfare programs are now the same people who are promoting expanding freeways to make peoples live easier and to accommodate for others inability to learn the rules of the road? Yeah, that makes sense there bud.

[ghettopalmetto]

NITC is not the only crossing. As you mentioned, the Blue Water Bridge customs plaza is also being expanded. Trucks have to be coming from somewhere are Port Huron certainly is not large enough to generate that need. There are trucks from the E side that need to get to the 401 to get to places like Windsor and there are also trucks that need to get to HWY 402. You are not looking at this in its totality. Regardless of freight, that is only one piece. The road is old, it cannot be rebuilt the way it is now, it is an interstate and the feds will not allow it. The feds want the operations to be improved, it to be safer, and the bridges raised in height. It is a federal need and the feds are picking up the cost of most of it.

So you're saying that trucks can't find their way to the 401 or the 402 at present, and that 14 lanes will be necessary to point them in the right direction?

There's just one little problem with your claim. If an I-94 widening is so necessary for truck traffic, why aren't there massive widenings of I-75 [[south of I-94) or the eastern end of I-96, or I-375 to the tunnel? Wouldn't a lack of concurrent widenings on those three roads create massive bottlenecks for this never-ending onslaught of truck traffic that you foresee?

Even if congestion were an issue, NO CITY HAS EVER CONSTRUCTED ENOUGH FREEWAYS TO PERMANENTLY SOLVE CONGESTION. Face it. You've been bullshitted by MDOT.

[DetroitPlanner]

So you're saying that trucks can't find their way to the 401 or the 402 at present, and that 14 lanes will be necessary to point them in the right direction?

There's just one little problem with your claim. If an I-94 widening is so necessary for truck traffic, why aren't there massive widenings of I-75 [[south of I-94) or the eastern end of I-96, or I-375 to the tunnel? Wouldn't a lack of concurrent widenings on those three roads create massive bottlenecks for this never-ending onslaught of truck traffic that you foresee?

Even if congestion were an issue, NO CITY HAS EVER CONSTRUCTED ENOUGH FREEWAYS TO PERMANENTLY SOLVE CONGESTION. Face it. You've been bullshitted by MDOT.

Wow you don't like transit, you don't like roads that operate well. No pleasing you is there?

I've got it figured out. You're a brain-washed tea partier ain't ya? Don't fix anything, it will cost money you say as you drive you car with $5 a gallon gas along roads that destroy your suspension.

There is no congestion on I-96 other than between 7:30-8:15 am in the left lane.
How are you getting that the freeway will be 14 lanes? Is it 12 now? no. There are service roads along that stretch now fyi, the big improvement will be connecting them.

[Scottathew]

NO CITY HAS EVER CONSTRUCTED ENOUGH FREEWAYS TO PERMANENTLY SOLVE CONGESTION. Face it. You've been bullshitted by MDOT.

Wow, I had no idea M-DOT was claiming a permanent resolution to freeway congestion with these projects!

[ghettopalmetto]

Wow you don't like transit, you don't like roads that operate well. No pleasing you is there?

I've got it figured out. You're a brain-washed tea partier ain't ya? Don't fix anything, it will cost money you say as you drive you car with $5 a gallon gas along roads that destroy your suspension.

There is no congestion on I-96 other than between 7:30-8:15 am in the left lane.
How are you getting that the freeway will be 14 lanes? Is it 12 now? no. There are service roads along that stretch now fyi, the big improvement will be connecting them.

I do like transit [[Detroit, apparently, does not). I do like roads that work well. But to ASSUME that widening I-94 to 14 lanes [[10 travel lanes and 4 lanes of service drive) will make it "work well", is asinine. I've driven the 20-lane 401 in Toronto, the 15-lane Downtown Connector in Atlanta, and the 12-lane I-270 in Maryland, and NONE of those roads work well. It's worth noting that, the respective DOTs in each of those jurisdictions claimed that such wide roadways were necessary to "alleviate congestion". Now, all three are among the most congested roads in all of North America.

The Jeffries is so utterly uncongested because it has already helped lay waste to its surrounding neighborhoods and funnel all that traffic toward Novi. So yeah...let's build more pavement that can sit underutilized in future decades. That's a smart use of money, isn't it?

You still haven't explained how a $2.7 BILLION widening [[for *temporary* congestion relief) allows this so-called international truck traffic to flow so freely on the eastern end of I-96 to the Bridge, I-375 to the Tunnel, or I-75 to Downriver and Toledo. Those seem to be the more critical links to me, but then again, I'm just an engineer who is trained to think in a rational manner.

Or maybe this whole project is just another line of bullshit from the Highway Industrial Complex. Ever notice how MDOT's recommendation is ALWAYS to widen a roadway? Funny how that happens, huh?

And you won't have to worry about destroying the suspension on your car. That much is a given. This and the I-75 project will soak enough of MDOTs budget for long enough time that there won't be any money for filling potholes or resurfacing existing roadways.

[Wesley Mouch]

I do like transit [[Detroit, apparently, does not). I do like roads that work well. But to ASSUME that widening I-94 to 14 lanes [[10 travel lanes and 4 lanes of service drive) will make it "work well", is asinine. I've driven the 20-lane 401 in Toronto, the 15-lane Downtown Connector in Atlanta, and the 12-lane I-270 in Maryland, and NONE of those roads work well. It's worth noting that, the respective DOTs in each of those jurisdictions claimed that such wide roadways were necessary to "alleviate congestion". Now, all three are among the most congested roads in all of North America.

The Jeffries is so utterly uncongested because it has already helped lay waste to its surrounding neighborhoods and funnel all that traffic toward Novi. So yeah...let's build more pavement that can sit underutilized in future decades. That's a smart use of money, isn't it?

You still haven't explained how a $2.7 BILLION widening [[for *temporary* congestion relief) allows this so-called international truck traffic to flow so freely on the eastern end of I-96 to the Bridge, I-375 to the Tunnel, or I-75 to Downriver and Toledo. Those seem to be the more critical links to me, but then again, I'm just an engineer who is trained to think in a rational manner.

Or maybe this whole project is just another line of bullshit from the Highway Industrial Complex. Ever notice how MDOT's recommendation is ALWAYS to widen a roadway? Funny how that happens, huh?

And you won't have to worry about destroying the suspension on your car. That much is a given. This and the I-75 project will soak enough of MDOTs budget for long enough time that there won't be any money for filling potholes or resurfacing existing roadways.

GP, I swear my allegiance to transit too; and I like roads. Now that my likes are public, I'd like to know about your perfect future for transportation.

[DetroitPlanner]

How do you get 10 travel lanes? It is currently three in each direction and will go to four.

Much of the service drive currently exists. Yes it will be connected, much of the new service drive will use existing roads.

Oh you're an engineer, I guess that makes you so much smarter than the dozens of PE's working in civil engineering that put this together. Take a look at the EIS and stop relying on what others are feeding you; they have incredible bias.

[ghettopalmetto]

How do you get 10 travel lanes? It is currently three in each direction and will go to four.

Much of the service drive currently exists. Yes it will be connected, much of the new service drive will use existing roads.

Oh you're an engineer, I guess that makes you so much smarter than the dozens of PE's working in civil engineering that put this together. Take a look at the EIS and stop relying on what others are feeding you; they have incredible bias.

I'm sorry. Four + four + two + two = 12 travel lanes. Is that right? 12 freaking lanes?

Yes, this P.E. does think he's smarter than the P.E.s who slap-dashed this piece of shit together. A monkey could experience a 5-minute traffic delay and propose a 12-lane, $2.7 billion highway project to "cure" it. It doesn't take much brilliance to follow a long-ago debunked methodology. A real engineer *always* has to consider costs, both actual costs and opportunity costs, and must re-examine his findings in the face of changing evidence. We've seen MDOT flagrantly ignore both of these fundamental principles.

Professional licensure requirements mandate that an engineer conduct his work in an objective, rational manner. That we've literally heard a rotating litany of different reasons for this project indicates we're not exactly dealing with the most honest, objective group of people. Like I said, when was the last time you saw MDOT make a conclusion that didn't require more pavement?

I can tell you first-hand that a roadway engineering course teaches, "If Level of Service drops, then add lanes". It's completely unsophisticated plug-and-chug engineering. And I think you guys are giving a little too much credit to the boneheads at MDOT.

[Gpwrangler]

PIRG is an environmental group. They would like everyone to ride bicycles so we don't pollute. What do you expect them to say about a freeway expansion?

[ABetterDetroit]

PIRG is an environmental group. They would like everyone to ride bicycles so we don't pollute. What do you expect them to say about a freeway expansion?

Fair point on the criticizer. From a U.S. PIRG point of view what interstate is not a "boondoggle"? Kinda like asking a tea bagger what's a good tax?