PIRG: I-94 Project One of the Worst "Highway Boondoggles"

[DetroitPlanner]

In my mind, the freeway widening proposed doesn't make logical sense when you consider that the Metro population hasn't grown IN OVER 40 YEARS. There is no real growth to accommodate, just tons of costly decentralization that no one can afford long-term.

This is where my logic differs. You are looking at regional population. I-94's problems are much more complex than that. Traffic on I-94 is generated nationally. Like it or not, the fact that it is close to border crossings has a huge impact. Add to that, there has been a shift from rail to more truck traffic over the last 40 years as well. We don't have all of these rail trails around here for nothing.

Detroit is an industrial town, granted not as much as it once was, but we are still one of the world's premier manufacturing centers with a very complicated grid that extends to our neighbors on both sides of the border. It has the opportunity to become the central place of this manufacturing and trade or a backwater that people avoid. Congestion makes commerce avoid the area and this starves the area of jobs. Without jobs you have no growth.

[EastsideAl]

This is where my logic differs. You are looking at regional population. I-94's problems are much more complex than that. Traffic on I-94 is generated nationally. Like it or not, the fact that it is close to border crossings has a huge impact. Add to that, there has been a shift from rail to more truck traffic over the last 40 years as well. We don't have all of these rail trails around here for nothing.

Detroit is an industrial town, granted not as much as it once was, but we are still one of the world's premier manufacturing centers with a very complicated grid that extends to our neighbors on both sides of the border. It has the opportunity to become the central place of this manufacturing and trade or a backwater that people avoid. Congestion makes commerce avoid the area and this starves the area of jobs. Without jobs you have no growth.

This is an absolutely ludicrous argument, and sadly typical of the 1950s & 60s era thinking about urban planning that continues to hold this area back. If traffic congestion was such a determining factor for regional economic health then New York, LA, and any number of other large cities would be jobless declining wastelands [[since almost every other major city in the U.S. has worse traffic than Detroit).

Instead it is Detroit that has long been a jobless declining wasteland. And I don't think it was the occasional traffic jam on I-94 that made it that way. In fact, a significant contributing factor to our city's decline is the fact that decades ago the decision was made to cut up and destroy neighborhoods and the urban fabric with big wide roaring stinking trenches so that cars & trucks could whiz right through our city to somewhere else.

Making those trenches even wider, adding even more stinking traffic going quickly elsewhere, destroying and disrupting even more housing, and spending billions to do so, will not help solve any of our actual problems. It will only add to them. Repaving and properly maintaining what's already there seems a far better option, and is really what's needed, not this giant prize to some favored construction contractors.

It would really be nice if our planners could take a look around at the rest of the country and see that many of the cities that are doing the best are actually removing or reducing the impact of urban freeways. And perhaps the thought that those billions of dollars could actually be spent much better on redevelopment of our urban fabric, including transit, and other more current types of urban and civic planning that are already working elsewhere, might dawn on them. But that would require our local planning establishment to make a mental leap from 1950 to 2014, which seems to be more than a bit too far for them.

[casscorridor]

94 through the city is only congested during rush hour, and compared to other cities, not that bad.

Access to the existing and new international bridges is important, but this project won't really improve that.

The only thing in the way of internation trade access is not having a second bridge yet, and not having an expanded rail tunnel yet.

As far as commerce into the city, access to the airport via transit could be vastly improved as it's pretty much non existent.

Overall, Detroit has one of the most efficient highway systems in the country, and most free of traffic. Let's maintain it, but not expand. Our transit on the other had is one of the worst, so let's focus on bringing us up to speed, as we are loosing without a proper transit system.

[Hermod]

There was also the fact that the Detroit government wanted an east-west expressway and also wanted the US government to pay for it. One of the problems with the interstate highway system was that cities did not want to be bypassed and wanted the interstate program funds to pay for their planned expressway needs. Some cities [[e.g. Louisville, KY) have the through interstate going outside of the major metro area. Can you imagine the 50s-60s consternation on the city council if the feds and the state had planned I-75 and I-94 to run up the I-275 corridor and over the I-696 corridor and not funded any expressways in Detroit?

[DetroitPlanner]

This is an absolutely ludicrous argument, and sadly typical of the 1950s & 60s era thinking about urban planning that continues to hold this area back. If traffic congestion was such a determining factor for regional economic health than New York, LA, and any number of other large cities would be jobless declining wastelands [[since almost every other major city in the U.S. has worse traffic than Detroit).

You fail to look at Detroit in context of its geography and its role in facilitating traffic throughout the United States, Canada, and Mexico. This combined with our role as providing a nice chunk of the goods still manufactured in the United States along with the shift of modes to more truck traffic has had an impact despite of what you think based upon the region's population. The population is growing elsewhere and that has an impact on us. The fact that we have done nothing to capitalize on it has had negative impacts on the amount of jobs we are able to generate.

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2013/...c-growth/7310/

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres...Congestion.pdf

http://www.edrgroup.com/library/frei...ly-chains.html

[nain rouge]

It has the opportunity to become the central place of this manufacturing and trade or a backwater that people avoid. Congestion makes commerce avoid the area and this starves the area of jobs. Without jobs you have no growth.

I'd like you to demonstrate how widening I-75 north of 8 Mile is going to lead to a manufacturing boom. Your argument has no substance.

[nain rouge]

Also, does anyone else find it fascinating that Windsor survives without a freeway rammed through the heart of its downtown?

And wouldn't you know, in all of the Federal Reserve Bank's suggestions for Detroit, it never once mentions freeways: http://midwest.chicagofedblogs.org/archives/detroit/ . The Feds must hate Detroit and want it to whither. Didn't they know that all that manufacturing Detroit lost could be successfully regained with a single freeway lane in each direction?

[Wesley Mouch]

Also, does anyone else find it fascinating that Windsor survives without a freeway rammed through the heart of its downtown?

And wouldn't you know, in all of the Federal Reserve Bank's suggestions for Detroit, it never once mentions freeways: http://midwest.chicagofedblogs.org/archives/detroit/ . The Feds must hate Detroit and want it to whither. Didn't they know that all that manufacturing Detroit lost could be successfully regained with a single freeway lane in each direction?

Metro Windsor = ~320,000 [[per wikipedia)
Metro Detroit = ~3,400,000 [[MSA per wikipedia)
Thus, Detroit = Windsor x 10.

Why should the reserve mention freeways? They exist, and they're pretty good. Lack of mention does not mean the fed recommends no improvements.

I'd like you to demonstrate how widening I-75 north of 8 Mile is going to lead to a manufacturing boom. Your argument has no substance.

Good transportation is a necessary component. Not the driver. Again, no reason to avoid providing better infrastructure.

I do not see how your negative remarks lead us to turn down investment in infrastructure.

What is the reason for the resistance to this? Save our urban 'fabric' from being torn apart? Surely you jest. Have you driven along I94 on the surface? Except for near Woodward, I fail to see any irreplaceable urban 'fabric'.

[Bham1982]

Also, does anyone else find it fascinating that Windsor survives without a freeway rammed through the heart of its downtown?

Downtown Windsor is deader than a doornail. Is there a worse downtown in Canada?

I don't think it has anything to do with a freeway, but that would be like the worst example possible.

[DetroitPlanner]

Downtown Windsor is deader than a doornail. Is there a worse downtown in Canada?

Hamilton, and there ain't no freeway there either! Whereas Toronto has the QEW and Don Valley.

All of this comparing Detroit to other places is kind of pointless. Detroit has needs that are unique onto itself. Lets be honest, E.C. Row functions a lot like I-94, only that it is not a federal freeway. It links factories, the airport, some retail and a lot of residential. Unlike I-94, it does not carry a lot of traffic that is going through town.

[DetroitPlanner]

[/COLOR]
I'd like you to demonstrate how widening I-75 north of 8 Mile is going to lead to a manufacturing boom. Your argument has no substance.

We're not debating I-75 keep to the topic.

[motz]

Good transportation is a necessary component. Not the driver. Again, no reason to avoid providing better infrastructure.

I do not see how your negative remarks lead us to turn down investment in infrastructure.

What is the reason for the resistance to this? Save our urban 'fabric' from being torn apart? Surely you jest. Have you driven along I94 on the surface? Except for near Woodward, I fail to see any irreplaceable urban 'fabric'.

Maybe we'd rather spend money on repairing all of our roads, than expanding two that really aren't necessary outside of making the commute to and from Detroit easier? I would rather they take that massive amount of money that they claim they don't have to fix our roads and put it towards, uhhhh, fixing our roads.

The only benefit expanding these freeways will have is helping keep the suburbs viable. Less commute time to Rochester or Romulus or Grosse Pointe Parke or wherever means that it will remain a very attractive option for those who work downtown/in the city. This is going to drive manufacturing AWAY from the 2nd busiest international trade crossing, increase transportation costs, etc... rather than being much more logical about it and trying to concentrate that industry near the border and existing infrastructure.

Also, don't spend $4B+ and tell me you can't build a stupid customs plaza. Double also, stop bitching about government spending and then tell me the government needs to waste money to "stimulate business" via expanding infrastructure. Repair before you expand. You don't put a new garage next to a house where the roof leaks and the siding is falling off. Unless you are MDOT.

Edit - I reverse commute. AM is Detroit->Troy, evening is Troy->Detroit. I have no problem with the often frustrating traffic because I, as a reasonable human being who is aware his actions and their consequences, understood and accepted everything that comes along with commuting.

[nain rouge]

What is the reason for the resistance to this? Save our urban 'fabric' from being torn apart? Surely you jest. Have you driven along I94 on the surface? Except for near Woodward, I fail to see any irreplaceable urban 'fabric'.

Average commute times in Metro Detroit are very respectable for a metro its size. Why do we have to tear up Midtown so Joe & Jane Blow in 26 Mile Township or Lyon Exurb can get home that much faster? And if you do help them get home that much faster, you know what Joe & Jane Blow will realize? "Wow, now that the freeways are wider I can move even farther away!"

Metro Detroit has had decades of freeway construction, and yet we have no population growth to show for it. The growth argument is a myth. I'm against freeway widening because I think Metro Detroit needs to focus on other quality of life issues that are more pressing. I don't think screwing with Midtown is worth whatever massive gains you think you'll achieve with one more lane each way.

[nain rouge]

This is going to drive manufacturing AWAY from the 2nd busiest international trade crossing...

That's why I brought up Windsor earlier. How is it that Windsor's roads can handle all that international traffic, but Detroit's bajillion freeways are never enough?

[nain rouge]

Why should the reserve mention freeways? They exist, and they're pretty good. Lack of mention does not mean the fed recommends no improvements.

The Fed DOES mention adding HOV lanes and other similar suggestions. Trust me, if all it took to unlock a huge latent mega demand for industry in Detroit was two measly freeway lanes, the Fed would've mentioned that in its plans for Detroit: "BUILD TWO FREEWAY LANES TO INDUCE GIGANTIC INDUSTRIAL INVESTMENT, GUARANTEED!"

If Metro Detroit focused as a region on bringing jobs and people back to Detroit and fixed its public transportation system, that would do more good for congestion and the region's economic health than any freeway lanes could ever hope to achieve.

[Wesley Mouch]

The Fed DOES mention adding HOV lanes and other similar suggestions. Trust me, if all it took to unlock a huge latent mega demand for industry in Detroit was two measly freeway lanes, the Fed would've mentioned that in its plans for Detroit: "BUILD TWO FREEWAY LANES TO INDUCE GIGANTIC INDUSTRIAL INVESTMENT, GUARANTEED!"

If Metro Detroit focused as a region on bringing jobs and people back to Detroit and fixed its public transportation system, that would do more good for congestion and the region's economic health than any freeway lanes could ever hope to achieve.

ahmmm, adding HOV lanes is adding lanes. Thus MDOT is spending mostly federal money to address issue raised by The Fed. Q.E.D.

Now that we have the Fed's blessing to widen I94, can we start digging?

[nain rouge]

UM, it mentions adding HOV lanes... and then says it's stupid. You haven't even really looked at the link, but you have opinions about it. Well, fancy that.

[DetroitPlanner]

I change peoples quotes to fit my snarky comments!

Ain't dat da truth.

[That Great Guy]

Both Federal and State laws segregate how the money is spent. You really want to spend that money on transit? Then fix Act 51 and the Federal Transportation Law. Be prepared however for the roads to go to complete $h!t as no one wants to raise a tax to pay for transportation [[with the exception of Trainman/The Great Guy!

Soon, we will have HOV lanes costing another Billion cuz we will again support SMART with more local money Thanks to people like you who do not understand my posts.

I'm in favor of someone filling up buses with proof or making Brooks Patterson pay for Detroit City buses OR no more state money for expanding roads. Why does this not make sense? I'm wondering? why slash CFT money, cut bus service and raise taxes on car license in 2016? And raise the SMART tax in 2018?

I'm campaigning against these taxes because the large freeway plans sans buses puts Safety in last place like in DEAD last. And job growth second to last place.

[DetroitPlanner]

That's why I brought up Windsor earlier. How is it that Windsor's roads can handle all that international traffic, but Detroit's bajillion freeways are never enough?

Windsor is building a new freeway to handle the increase in international traffic.

"Upon completion, the Parkway will ensure the safe and efficient movement of people, goods and services to and from a proposed new Canadian inspection plaza and international bridge, separate local and international traffic, and eliminate stop-and-go traffic in residential areas. - See more at: http://www.hgparkway.ca/#sthash.QAltWSFg.dpuf"

http://www.hgparkway.ca/

The fact that you don't know what is going on in your own backyard yet you criticize projects here is amazing.

[ABetterDetroit]

Both Federal and State laws segregate how the money is spent. You really want to spend that money on transit? Then fix Act 51 and the Federal Transportation Law. Be prepared however for the roads to go to complete $h!t as no one wants to raise a tax to pay for transportation [[with the exception of Trainman/The Great Guy!

A simple fact stated above. If you don't like it than fine that's a different argument, but at the end of the day the Feds aren't going to give our share of federal highway $$$ to fill potholes or anything else that could be a damn good idea that needs funding. It just doesn't work that way. We need to stop cutting of our nose to spite our face. Take ALL the cash the Feds will pony up for any infrastructure project you can get and bring it back to Michigan for a change or another state will be happy to take our cut.

[Detroitnerd]

Again, we need to slice open a larger canyon in Detroit, further dividing and separating one part of town that's booming from another that could be taking off, so people in Grosse Pointe can get to Ann Arbor two minutes faster.

And people wonder why this region is sinking?

[DetroitPlanner]

Again, we need to slice open a larger canyon in Detroit, further dividing and separating one part of town that's booming from another that could be taking off, so people in Grosse Pointe can get to Ann Arbor two minutes faster.

And people wonder why this region is sinking?

That is not the reason why:
- The geometrics of the road are not up to current interstate standards. To rebuild it you must bring it up to those standards.
- In order to get Uncle Sam to pay 80 percent of the project cost you must follow the rules established by FHWA.
- Traffic has changed as we have abanonded rail in favor of OTR.
- To rebuild interchanges that are unsafe as is, is morally and ethically wrong. You want to reduce accidents and save lives, not continue to subject citizens to them when you know there are better ways.
- Idling cars cause more pollution than moving ones. If it takes you 5 minutes to go from I-75 to I-96 you pollute twice as much as if it takes 2.5 minutes.
- Federal transportation law is all about measuring improvements. You put out projects that don't address congestion, air quality, or safety concerns then the feds will take your money away. Don't know about you but I see our roads as busses as needing more money, not less.

[Wesley Mouch]

Again, we need to slice open a larger canyon in Detroit, further dividing and separating one part of town that's booming from another that could be taking off, so people in Grosse Pointe can get to Ann Arbor two minutes faster....

if you don't want a canyon, fight the canyon. Don't fight the widening. Sure, widening drives canyon. But it could be minimized and/or mitigated. Fighting federal investment in Detroit is not the right way.

[ghettopalmetto]

That is not the reason why:
- The geometrics of the road are not up to current interstate standards. To rebuild it you must bring it up to those standards.
- In order to get Uncle Sam to pay 80 percent of the project cost you must follow the rules established by FHWA.
- Traffic has changed as we have abanonded rail in favor of OTR.
- To rebuild interchanges that are unsafe as is, is morally and ethically wrong. You want to reduce accidents and save lives, not continue to subject citizens to them when you know there are better ways.
- Idling cars cause more pollution than moving ones. If it takes you 5 minutes to go from I-75 to I-96 you pollute twice as much as if it takes 2.5 minutes.
- Federal transportation law is all about measuring improvements. You put out projects that don't address congestion, air quality, or safety concerns then the feds will take your money away. Don't know about you but I see our roads as busses as needing more money, not less.

Where's the federal requirement to take private property, demolish dozens of homes and buildings, eliminate 11 bridges, and construct an additional 84-foot width of pavement? I must have missed that part.

And I'll agree that traffic has changed. Vehicle-miles traveled have decreased 14% since MDOT resuscitated this 1950s fantasy in 2003.

MDOT won't be happy until all of Southeast Michigan looks like this: