PIRG: I-94 Project One of the Worst "Highway Boondoggles"

[dtowncitylover]

Well I don't think anyone is saying I-94 doesn't need to be fixed. It does, better paved lanes and new pedestrian bridges and overpasses. What it doesn't need is extra lanes that will continue to rip apart Detroit's fragile urban landscape based on data that's over a decade old! The region isn't growing so why are we adding more lanes. And even if we were, we still need to focus on better transportation options.

[Scottathew]

Speed has almost nothing to do with mass transit ridership. Even transit quality has little to do with transit ridership.

The biggest factor, by far, in driving transit ridership is making driving difficult. Until then, you can build subways from here to Saginaw, won't make the region transit-oriented.

I don't agree, but I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

The point other folks are making is that if we keep dumping all our money into freeways that we will never have mass transit.

If we were to bite the bullet and build the M-1 Subway\Elevated Rail line from CBD to Pontiac, it would take cars off of I-75, get us to work faster, and improve quality of life.

Right now mass transit is much slower than having your own dedicated car. Therefore, usually using mass transit is an economic decision.

In NYC, the subway is as fast, if not faster than taking a taxi in many scenarios, and way cheaper.

[ghettopalmetto]

Do people just outright lie on DYes?

Anyone who has exited or entered I-94, from I-75 or the Lodge, at any time of day, 24/7, 365, has slowed down to deal with I-94's deficiencies.

If they didn't slow down they would probably be dead. This is true at 4 AM as it is at rush hour. The freeway is clearly not built to the same standard as all other local freeways.

So you're saying that we need to spend $4 billion to increase the chance of people getting killed? Well, I hadn't heard that justification from MDOT yet, but I suppose promotion of "Hunger Games"-style driving isn't much of a stretch for them.

Germany has the Autobahn, but they also have one of the finest passenger rail systems in the world, i.e. you're not *forced* to drive. Michigan, on the other hand, will spend $4 billion to unnecessarily widen two freeways, and hope you have off-road suspension for all other stretches of pavement.

[That Great Guy]

The Public Interest Research Group has labeled the I-94 project one of the worst "highway boondoggles" in the nation.

"State Rep. Jim Townsend, a Democrat of Royal Oak, introduced House Bill 5883, which would prohibit the Michigan Department of Transportation [[MDOT) from spending approximately $4 billion to tackle the expansion of I-94 in Detroit and I-75 in Oakland County.

"These freeway expansions are an epic waste of money," says Townsend, in a statement Wednesday. "At a time when we should be investing our scarce road dollars on fixing the roads we already have, MDOT is instead pursuing a freeway expansion that will weaken our economy and saddle taxpayers with new lanes to maintain in the future."



http://www.metrotimes.com/Blogs/arch...ening-projects

On August 5, 2014 we as a majority stood firm and voted $27 Million per year for this freeway by saying HELL NO, we don't need MDOT to pay for SMART. We want this freeway.

The Transportation Riders United TRU supports both federal and state cuts to SMART and the massive bus service reductions.

There should be protests in Lansing over the cuts to SMART and DDOT from MDOT in CTF funds which are now nearly non existent. Slashed by over $40 Million per year from 1995 since the property tax.

We were told that the tax was only to balance the budget. It never did, was never intended to, nor will it ever make up for the loss of CTF funds. And we all knew the truth and so did SMART.

I voted NO in 1995 and have protested the monster freeways and still want support to stop them. There is no excuse for a city of the size of Detroit to have lost nearly ALL state funds for public bus service.

save the fuel tax org

[BankruptcyGuy]

I don't understand why the two are mutually exclusive.

If there's growth in the downtown [[there is), let's build some dedicated public transportation to get people around.

If there's growth in the suburbs, let's build roads so that people can get from where they live [[read: where decent schools are) to where they work [[finally, downtown).

I don't think either you can build-it-and-they-will-come, nor can you modify desires by failing to build infrastructure.

If we've got growth in the downtown and the suburbs, as my grandmother would say, "one should have such problems."

[ABetterDetroit]

That brand spanking new subway system is pretty sweet...

Nobody is actually serious when they compare rebuilding a couple freeways for a few miles to building a subway from scratch. Right?

[Cliffy]

I can't believe people are so upset about getting a new badly needed freeway. Like a freeway has anything to do with a subway. They are mutually exclusive.

[Scottathew]

I can't believe people are so upset about getting a new badly needed freeway. Like a freeway has anything to do with a subway. They are mutually exclusive.

The argument is that when you spend 4 billion dollars on something, that it could have been spent elsewhere.

However, what would the cost of needed maintenance without the extra lanes and modernization costs? I'm sure it would be less, but it would be interesting to know exactly how much.

[DetroitPlanner]

The argument is that when you spend 4 billion dollars on something, that it could have been spent elsewhere.

However, what would the cost of needed maintenance without the extra lanes and modernization costs? I'm sure it would be less, but it would be interesting to know exactly how much.

Both Federal and State laws segregate how the money is spent. You really want to spend that money on transit? Then fix Act 51 and the Federal Transportation Law. Be prepared however for the roads to go to complete $h!t as no one wants to raise a tax to pay for transportation [[with the exception of Trainman/The Great Guy!

[ghettopalmetto]

The argument is that when you spend 4 billion dollars on something, that it could have been spent elsewhere.

However, what would the cost of needed maintenance without the extra lanes and modernization costs? I'm sure it would be less, but it would be interesting to know exactly how much.

It would be interesting to see what the maintenance costs are. I'm sure the property condemnation, addition of lanes, addition of service drives, and reconstruction of new [[longer) overpasses adds up to be quite a bit of cash.

The proposed I-75 project, on the other hand, is pure widening.

It's comical, though. These projects were proposed under the assumption that vehicle-miles traveled [[VMT) would have increased 11% by now. VMT has actually *decreased* 14% since these projects were proposed. So yeah, these widenings are totally unnecessary. It blows my mind that [[supposedly) rational engineers can stick to obviously broken models and flawed assumptions in the face of all evidence. That's not engineering--that's dogma.

[Wesley Mouch]

It would be interesting to see what the maintenance costs are. I'm sure the property condemnation, addition of lanes, addition of service drives, and reconstruction of new [[longer) overpasses adds up to be quite a bit of cash.

The proposed I-75 project, on the other hand, is pure widening.

It's comical, though. These projects were proposed under the assumption that vehicle-miles traveled [[VMT) would have increased 11% by now. VMT has actually *decreased* 14% since these projects were proposed. So yeah, these widenings are totally unnecessary. It blows my mind that [[supposedly) rational engineers can stick to obviously broken models and flawed assumptions in the face of all evidence. That's not engineering--that's dogma.

Most think that the financial crisis is not permanent, and that we will yet see the increases in traffic. Isn't that what we want, after all. More jobs, traffic, people, cars, trains, boats, bridges.... MORE!

I don't think there's a serious thought that better times are gone for good. So we still need to get ready. That's not dogma. That's planning.

[Islandman]

Do people just outright lie on DYes?

Anyone who has exited or entered I-94, from I-75 or the Lodge, at any time of day, 24/7, 365, has slowed down to deal with I-94's deficiencies.

If they didn't slow down they would probably be dead. This is true at 4 AM as it is at rush hour. The freeway is clearly not built to the same standard as all other local freeways.

You are truly the class clown on DYes with your asinine "opinions". I wasn't talking about exits or entrances, was I?

And I seriously doubt it takes $4B to fix these things. The main problems on 94 are drivers going 90 miles an hour, the excessive truck traffic, and not following the rules of the road and allowing people to merge and exit safely, etc.

The simple fact is that most drivers do not have the skill or reflexes to be driving that fast, but hey, my Hemi needs lebensraum, and they do it anyway.

[Gpwrangler]

You are truly the class clown on DYes with your asinine "opinions". I wasn't talking about exits or entrances, was I?

And I seriously doubt it takes $4B to fix these things. The main problems on 94 are drivers going 90 miles an hour, the excessive truck traffic, and not following the rules of the road and allowing people to merge and exit safely, etc.

The simple fact is that most drivers do not have the skill or reflexes to be driving that fast, but hey, my Hemi needs lebensraum, and they do it anyway.

The rules of the road state that merging traffic needs to accelerate, find a spot, signal and move in, and go with the flow. Idiot drivers who do 30mph down the ramp, force others to move over, then jump into the fast lane at 54mph and then spend 5 miles getting up to speed are the problem.

The passing lane is for passing, not blocking others or "policing" traffic. You could get a ticket for blocking the "90 mph guy".

I've never had a problem merging on even the shortest ramps, but many do and some ramps built in WWII are just not safe for the average driver.

[Islandman]

Agreed, driver education is definitely an issue. The exits and entrances need to be modernized, I just don't think the widening is necessary, especially at that exorbitant amount.

[ghettopalmetto]

Most think that the financial crisis is not permanent, and that we will yet see the increases in traffic. Isn't that what we want, after all. More jobs, traffic, people, cars, trains, boats, bridges.... MORE!

I don't think there's a serious thought that better times are gone for good. So we still need to get ready. That's not dogma. That's planning.

Who said that the decrease in traffic is due strictly to the 2008 financial crisis? If that were the case, we'd have seen a gradual increase in traffic as the economy has recovered. This has not happened.

Michigan needs to plan for the future. And that future includes an entire generation for whom car ownership is not a priority, where alternate means of transportation are used, and the suburbs have less and less appeal. That's not a temporary blip--that's a wholesale change in how human habitats are constructed. Retention of the 1950s-era planning models that MDOT uses would be a tragic and expensive mistake.

But honestly, I think the FHWA will save MDOT from itself. Realistically, there's no way federal funding for these projects comes through.

[Scottathew]

The proposed I-75 project, on the other hand, is pure widening.

That's mostly, but not entirely true.

The I-75 project includes some modernization and safety upgrades.

- Braiding of the NB-75 to 11 Mile exit ramp, so that 11 mile traffic exit before [[and goes under) the traffic coming from I-696. This would eliminate the mile long weave-merge lane and stop people from "cheating" too

- Elimination of the WB 12 Mile to SB I-75 loop ramp. This will make it so you no longer have traffic entering on the bridge going 50 mph slower than traffic on the highway. All traffic going to SB-75 at 12 Mile will use the same, long straight ramp

- Elimination of all left-side activities at the Square Lake Road interchange. NB-75 to Square Lake will exit on the right. Square Lake to NB-75 will enter on the right. This will also eliminate the 4-lane dash when trying to go from Square Lake to EB M-59

But other than that, it's pure widening. Very little ROW acquisition will be needed, but one of the few ones needed will unfortunately be a church in Madison Heights that's right on the service drive where they need extra space for the braiding.

Most of the land for the widening will come from the embankments [[south of 12 Mile) or from the median [[north of 12 Mile).

[ghettopalmetto]

But other than that, it's pure widening. Very little ROW acquisition will be needed, but one of the few ones needed will unfortunately be a church in Madison Heights that's right on the service drive where they need extra space for the braiding.

Most of the land for the widening will come from the embankments [[south of 12 Mile) or from the median [[north of 12 Mile).

= Retaining walls. Not cheap.

[DTWflyer]

I question whether most of the widening / additional lanes is going to accomplish much, but I agree there are some serious safety and flow issues with many interchanges on both stretches of I-94 and I-75.

These lead to accidents and major bottlenecks, and the biggest issues causing them is too many differences in speed between entering/exiting traffic and through lanes.

On I-75, they need to fix the I-696, 11 Mile, 12 Mile, Rochester Rd, Square Lake, and M-59 interchanges to add accelerate/deceleration lanes, eliminate left-hand exits, traffic entering off slow loop ramps at 25 mph adjacent to 75 mph through lanes and improve sight lines.

If you have ever been on the ramp from WB M-59 to SB I-75 you know exactly what I am talking about as that is one of the scariest interchange ramps in all of Metro Detroit. You take your life in your hands each time.

The I-696 / I-75 interchange is all screwed up and where improvements need to be make to prevent massive back-ups onto I-696 into 75 mph traffic.

[Scottathew]

= Retaining walls. Not cheap.

South of 12, yes. North of 12 there will be the extra expense of putting in a drainage system to make up for the median being gone, as that's where a lot of the water currently goes.

Page 3 [[numbered as 2) of this document highlights that: http://michigan.gov/documents/mdot/M...6_420756_7.pdf

[Scottathew]

If you have ever been on the ramp from WB M-59 to SB I-75 you know exactly what I am talking about as that is one of the scariest interchange ramps in all of Metro Detroit. You take your life in your hands each time.

Yes, it is dangerous. There are plans [[separate from the big expansion) to create collector\distributor bridges for M-59. This would make the interchange more like I-75 at Big Beaver, where the short weave\merge is occurring separated from the mainline.

[Hypestyles]

so how many residences would be displaced with the proposed I-94 widening? How many jobs would be genuinely generated from the demolition and construction projects? And of course, absolutely none of this involves a component for a rail line.

[nain rouge]

After living in other states and traveling across the country, I've grown to appreciate the extreme engineering that's gone into Metro Detroit's roads. You guys have NOTHING to complain about compared to what goes on in tons of other big cities. What you consider a dangerous aberration would be business as usual in most other metros.

I've seen cities that combine off and on ramps into one lane maybe 3-4 cars in length, and that's within the metro area. Do something like that in Metro Detroit and people would recall a politician or two.

In my mind, the freeway widening proposed doesn't make logical sense when you consider that the Metro population hasn't grown IN OVER 40 YEARS. There is no real growth to accommodate, just tons of costly decentralization that no one can afford long-term.

Widen the freeways when the MSA actually hits 5 million. Just as in 1970, you've got about 700,000 people to go. Maybe even use some money to fix Detroit first. I don't know, is that crazy?

[DetroitPlanner]

Yes, it is dangerous. There are plans [[separate from the big expansion) to create collector\distributor bridges for M-59. This would make the interchange more like I-75 at Big Beaver, where the short weave\merge is occurring separated from the mainline.

That was abandoned a dozen years ago. It is not in any current MDOT or regional plans.

[Wesley Mouch]

After living in other states and traveling across the country, I've grown to appreciate the extreme engineering that's gone into Metro Detroit's roads. You guys have NOTHING to complain about compared to what goes on in tons of other big cities. What you consider a dangerous aberration would be business as usual in most other metros.

I've seen cities that combine off and on ramps into one lane maybe 3-4 cars in length, and that's within the metro area. Do something like that in Metro Detroit and people would recall a politician or two.

In my mind, the freeway widening proposed doesn't make logical sense when you consider that the Metro population hasn't grown IN OVER 40 YEARS. There is no real growth to accommodate, just tons of costly decentralization that no one can afford long-term.

Widen the freeways when the MSA actually hits 5 million. Just as in 1970, you've got about 700,000 people to go. Maybe even use some money to fix Detroit first. I don't know, is that crazy?

The only part available to use is the city/state contibution. The other 90% is federal matching fund that can be used for this project and nothing else. We can't redirect that money.

So why wait? We have a chance to get local wages of 90% of $3-4 billion spent in metro Detroit. Its road work, so the vast majority are 'prevailing wage' work of the kind we demand.

The downside?

1) relocation -- not like there's not enough space in Detroit, nor lack of houses -- so this is clearly not a real problem in exchange for billions of dollars in jobs.

2) neighborhood disruption -- sure, but nothing in comparison to new construction of something like I96.

3) Woodward & Cass 'urban walkability' -- is already bad and could get worse -- if we focus our energy on demanding that these overpasses be made as pedestrian friendly as possible, we could probably make this difference. Heck, even Ilitch is saying he made a mistake not making the ballpark more walkable.

The upside?

1) did I say jobs?

2) more freeway capacity which will encourage investment in our region vs others

3) a disruption now when traffic volume is light rather than in 10 years when Detroit should be doing quite well

I don't get the opposition arguments. They seem pretty NIMBY.

[Scottathew]

That was abandoned a dozen years ago. It is not in any current MDOT or regional plans.

Looks like you're right. I may have been confusing it with I-96 @ US-23

http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,...5384--,00.html