Gilbert to widen 375 off-ramp

[Honky Tonk]

There are already three additional exit lanes from 375 to Greektown. Larned and Jefferson. However, no one ever uses those.

Total B/S... I've seen all three exits backed up with traffic on numerous occasions, as well as the right lane too.

[Spartan]

Total B/S... I've seen all three exits backed up with traffic on numerous occasions, as well as the right lane too.

Very, very rarely. I live off of Lafayette, and I have pretty much never sat in traffic getting home. Problem is, people don't understand what "alternate routes" are. If there's major events going on downtown, I will get off at Mack, Jefferson, Gratiot, etc. and take the local roads. 90% of the time, even when Lafayette exit is backed up, the exit to Larned/Jefferson is pretty much free and clear. Of course, there are exceptions [[I'm sure everything was backed up when Eminem and the Lions played the same day, for example). However, it's silly to put $1M+ of infrastructure to handle a few days of heavy use.

[Danny]

I can see the sign above the new I-375 ramp. Welcome to Gilberttown, a clean and safe city.

[bailey]

However, it's silly to put $1M+ of infrastructure to handle a few days of heavy use.

I'd agree if it were MDOT doing it. But it's private money looking to do it. It affects no one but the private money guy that wants to do it.

Again, he's not running trucks through a neighborhood. The plan is to take a heavily used [[at peak times) off ramp and and make it easier to use.

I really don't get the controversy on this.

[ghettopalmetto]

I'd agree if it were MDOT doing it. But it's private money looking to do it. It affects no one but the private money guy that wants to do it.

Again, he's not running trucks through a neighborhood. The plan is to take a heavily used [[at peak times) off ramp and and make it easier to use.

I really don't get the controversy on this.

If Dan Gilbert wanted to spend his own money on a freeway through the DIA or St. Anne de Detroit, you clowns would let him, simply because you'd get to keep your shekels in your pocket.

[iheartthed]

exactly... but I'm guessing we don't agree as to the "why" it's so stupid.

Probably not.

[Spartan]

I'd agree if it were MDOT doing it. But it's private money looking to do it. It affects no one but the private money guy that wants to do it.

Again, he's not running trucks through a neighborhood. The plan is to take a heavily used [[at peak times) off ramp and and make it easier to use.

I really don't get the controversy on this.

The major argument is that private money in infrastructure is too much power. It's a logical argument, but I'm not quite as concerned about that as I am with the fact that we're adding additional infrastructure to a city that is severely overloaded with it already.

[bailey]

If Dan Gilbert wanted to spend his own money on a freeway through the DIA or St. Anne de Detroit, you clowns would let him, simply because you'd get to keep your shekels in your pocket.

that is not what anyone is saying. just fucking stop.

[bailey]

The major argument is that private money in infrastructure is too much power. It's a logical argument, but I'm not quite as concerned about that as I am with the fact that we're adding additional infrastructure to a city that is severely overloaded with it already.

sure. but the irony of decrying this infinitesimally small street expansion while simultaneously jizzing all over place over the Gilbert-town trolley is clearly lost on some here...

[iheartthed]

sure. but the irony of decrying this infinitesimally small street expansion while simultaneously jizzing all over place over the Gilbert-town trolley is clearly lost on some here...

You're late...

I don't think this is a freeway widening. He's just paying to have the exit ramp altered.

And I'm not really a fan of private enterprise funding public works [[and especially not the vice versa), but the precedent is already set with the M1-Rail. I don't see how this is much different from that.

[ghettopalmetto]

sure. but the irony of decrying this infinitesimally small street expansion while simultaneously jizzing all over place over the Gilbert-town trolley is clearly lost on some here...

The M1 rail project was vetted to the public, and went through all of the necessary regulatory hoops to obtain federal funding.

This public road expansion is just a Dan Gilbert "Hey I've Got a Great Idea to Line My Pockets" project, with ZERO input from local stakeholders, hasn't conducted any objective analysis, and is not subject to review or revision by anyone. Well, there is MDOT, but we all know they've never met a road-widening project that they didn't want to marry.

THAT is your difference.

[Spartan]

sure. but the irony of decrying this infinitesimally small street expansion while simultaneously jizzing all over place over the Gilbert-town trolley is clearly lost on some here...

There are a few major differences that lead to those opinions.

1. Public Transit is a major need in the city, and adding two lanes to 375 exit ramp is not.
2. While initially too small scale and requiring maintenance in the future, M1 can provide a springboard for future development, business, and residency. The 375 ramp will cause additional expense to either maintain, or tear apart in the case of redevelopment.
3. Rail is a service that provides a major positive impact to businesses, residents, and visitors. An extra lane at a freeway exit will mostly benefit Greektown Casino/Hotel, with a few minor improvements for other businesses/visitors, and nearly none for residents.
4. M1 had a full process than included many entities, research, funding, and approval. This didn't seem to undergo any of that [[or at least very little).

[bailey]

The M1 rail project was vetted to the public, and went through all of the necessary regulatory hoops to obtain federal funding.
.

lols. "vetted by the public" oh.. wait, you're serious.

[Scottathew]

I can see the sign above the new I-375 ramp. Welcome to Gilberttown, a clean and safe city.

LOL, that brings me back to my Warren days.

[bailey]

There are a few major differences that lead to those opinions.

1. Public Transit is a major need in the city

Sure. Agreed. Let me know when we get it.

2. While initially too small scale and requiring maintenance in the future, M1 can provide a springboard for future development, business, and residency. The 375 ramp will cause additional expense to either maintain, or tear apart in the case of redevelopment.

In the scope of raising 375 back to grade or all the other MASSIVE overhauls being proposed, is the removal of 2 lanes on an exit ramp REALLY a concern?

3. Rail is a service that provides a major positive impact to businesses, residents, and visitors. An extra lane at a freeway exit will mostly benefit Greektown Casino/Hotel, with a few minor improvements for other businesses/visitors, and nearly none for residents.

when we get "rail service" let me know. Because we are talking about a closed downtown circulator. that mostly benefits casinos, stadiums, restaurants and events with little to no benefit to any resident except those wealthy enough to live along the line.

Which is fine. I like it. I want it. But if you are upset with Gilbert and the rest dictating public transit and where infrastructure goes...then STOP LETTING GILBERT [[and the rest) DICTATE THE DESIGN OF THE CITY's INFRASTRUCTURE.

[bailey]

You're late...

ha. sorry. missed that. +1 to your post.

[ghettopalmetto]

lols. "vetted by the public" oh.. wait, you're serious.

Yup. You had a chance to submit formal comment on that project. Whether you did or not is up to you.

[bailey]

Yup. You had a chance to submit formal comment on that project. Whether you did or not is up to you.

Oh yes, and I'm sure they would have altered their plans accordingly. Just like all the comments on how silly side running is [[to include the USDOT studies when it was still supposed to go to 8mile) drove a change to make it center running...or how it doesn't connect to RPTC or COBO...drove change to re route it .

Personally, I like this move by all parties. It simply drops the charade and it'll just get done.

[animatedmartian]

The M1 rail project was vetted to the public, and went through all of the necessary regulatory hoops to obtain federal funding.

This public road expansion is just a Dan Gilbert "Hey I've Got a Great Idea to Line My Pockets" project, with ZERO input from local stakeholders, hasn't conducted any objective analysis, and is not subject to review or revision by anyone. Well, there is MDOT, but we all know they've never met a road-widening project that they didn't want to marry.

THAT is your difference.

Could you explain exactly how Gilbert gets profits from this expansion? And I mean profits directly from the section in question.

[Scottathew]

Yup. You had a chance to submit formal comment on that project. Whether you did or not is up to you.

Not every project goes through that process. Smaller, more trivial projects don't have public comment phases. Adding two additional lanes to an exit ramp funded by 100% private money may fall into that category.

Some examples by my house, M-DOT is adding dedicated right turn lanes to Auburn Road at John R [[Auburn Road is a state road).

Another example, M-DOT is changing from a span to a box signal at M-150 and Auburn and Avon.

Another example, a dedicated right turn lane was added to Auburn at M-150.


You're applying a pretty high level of standards to such a little, slam-dunk project.


And just so you don't think I back everything that Gilbert wants, I disagreed with him on the curbside rail for M-1. I thought center-run was the best option. However, compromises had to be made since the private backers attached strings to their funding. If we'd get our heads out of our asses and publicly fund a regional mass transit system we wouldn't have to compromise.

[Gistok]

The truth: the traffic backs up onto 375 because of Greektown Casino. The owners Greektown reportedly will pony up and pay to correct that unsafe situation.

anyone who has a problem with fixing problems is being silly for silly reasons.

You must love being right, huh Gnome....

[Spartan]

Sure. Agreed. Let me know when we get it.

Hopefully I'm alive still when it happens.

In the scope of raising 375 back to grade or all the other MASSIVE overhauls being proposed, is the removal of 2 lanes on an exit ramp REALLY a concern?

If there will be a major overhaul in the future, maintenance costs probably won't be affected significantly by this expansion [[probably will only increase construction costs slightly). However, I think it would be more effective for him to donate to that major overhaul, rather than wasting the money on this minor change. Additionally, this is where the "private-public partnership" issue comes into play. If Gilbert puts in this investment, it gives him incentive to fight against a truly meaningful project in the future. I'm fearful for that.

when we get "rail service" let me know. Because we are talking about a closed downtown circulator. that mostly benefits casinos, stadiums, restaurants and events with little to no benefit to any resident except those wealthy enough to live along the line.

Which is fine. I like it. I want it. But if you are upset with Gilbert and the rest dictating public transit and where infrastructure goes...then STOP LETTING GILBERT [[and the rest) DICTATE THE DESIGN OF THE CITY's INFRASTRUCTURE.

This isn't an argument about the viability of M1. There are plenty of discussions already going on about that. The point I'm making is that the similarities between this project and that one are irrelevant, because the rail fills a need and this does not. We can argue all we want about whether M1 is effective in addressing the need. To me, this project may very well be effective, but it's addressing a "need" that doesn't exist.

Second, M1 is a partnership that includes numerous investors, including public funding. There are many people involved in the planning and development, and there are independent organizations in charge of the design. Yes, there is influence from the investors, but there are some natural checks and balances in place. This is basically an infrastructure decision that came from a single entity, which is a bit dangerous.

[ghettopalmetto]

Not every project goes through that process. Smaller, more trivial projects don't have public comment phases. Adding two additional lanes to an exit ramp funded by 100% private money may fall into that category.

Some examples by my house, M-DOT is adding dedicated right turn lanes to Auburn Road at John R [[Auburn Road is a state road).

Another example, M-DOT is changing from a span to a box signal at M-150 and Auburn and Avon.

Another example, a dedicated right turn lane was added to Auburn at M-150.


You're applying a pretty high level of standards to such a little, slam-dunk project.


And just so you don't think I back everything that Gilbert wants, I disagreed with him on the curbside rail for M-1. I thought center-run was the best option. However, compromises had to be made since the private backers attached strings to their funding. If we'd get our heads out of our asses and publicly fund a regional mass transit system we wouldn't have to compromise.

BUT [[and this is a big "but") MDOT is legally tasked with implementing transportation policy, studying potential improvements, and enacting solutions. This road-widening is Dan Gilbert unilaterally making I-375 into his private driveway without a single shred of study on the impacts, or whether or not this plan is consistent with current transportation policy. Now, if MDOT weren't so busy encouraging expansion of suburban motoring all over the state, they might have the cash to fund a needed[[???) improvement downtown.

It's quite shocking and dangerous to put that kind of decision-making power into the hands of a very few wealthy, well-connected people.

[erikd]

One again, you're ranting more about WHO is funding it, rather than whether it's a good idea or not.

Explain to me how this project will cause more danger to pedestrians? Have you looks at a map and what they're proposing to do?

Also, there are not going to be toll booths, as much as anti-freeway people want to wish them into existence.

This is another example of dogma and ideology trumping common sense.

I-375 is an outdated, obsolete, poorly-planned, terrible piece of infrastructure. It's sole purpose is to provide easy access to the tunnel, at the expense of accessibility to downtown, the riverfront, and the near east side. I-375 needs to be completely reconfigured to rectify these shortcomings, and that will likely happen at some point in the next 5-10 years.

As much as I agree with many of the anti-freeway and anti- I-375 points, the reality is that the Lafayette exit ramp is a major bottleneck into the city center, and this relatively inexpensive small change will help alleviate congestion and access in the short term until we can do a proper reconfiguration.

If we can make this terrible piece of freeway work a little better for a few years until a permanent solution is built, then it is a good thing.

[Honky Tonk]

Very, very rarely. I live off of Lafayette, and I have pretty much never sat in traffic getting home. Problem is, people don't understand what "alternate routes" are. If there's major events going on downtown, I will get off at Mack, Jefferson, Gratiot, etc. and take the local roads. 90% of the time, even when Lafayette exit is backed up, the exit to Larned/Jefferson is pretty much free and clear. Of course, there are exceptions [[I'm sure everything was backed up when Eminem and the Lions played the same day, for example). However, it's silly to put $1M+ of infrastructure to handle a few days of heavy use.

You must get home different times then I am. I deal with the traffic back-ups daily, and especially on weekends. You can't go to 375 and Larned because of the overflow from the back-up @ 375 and Lafeyette. It's not "pretty much free and clear", and even going all the way to Jefferson is a royal PITA because of the overflow. I know where the "alternate routes are", I don't want to go miles out of my way to get to an "alternate route". A million to alleviate congestion, accidents, and injuries? Well worth it. That expansion should have been put in way before 2 stadiums and a casino were built.