Gilbert to widen 375 off-ramp

[animatedmartian]

Channel 4 also has a fly-through [[or drive-through) animation of the rendering at 1:18.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/d...s-own/28193788

[Willi]

MUCH more fun to use conjecture, rumor, hearsay and red herrings during a discussion
than actually look at a diagram of a proposed project

[iheartthed]

Well, they already were. MDOT included them as well as other businesses and entities along 375 when they did their study a year ago.

http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,...5--RSS,00.html

And now their concerns have more weight than any other business whose input was solicited.

[ghettopalmetto]

Couple things here folks.

#1 - This isn't adding THREE lanes like the OP stated, it's adding TWO lanes [[for a total of three lanes, 1 existing, 2 new) to the EXIT RAMP, not the freeway itself
#2 - One of the lanes is a dedicated turn lane onto Macomb street
#3 - The left two lanes are through lanes to Lafayette and Monroe


Now does anyone want to discuss the actual details of this project? Or go back to bashing "the man" and talking about how this is a colossal expansion of our freeway system that will no doubt lead to the decommissioning of all D-DOT buses?

Also, I think the congestion has far less to do with the casino and far more to do with all the glorious jobs that are now crammed into the CBD. This has two negative effects for Gilbert:

- Gilbert's workers are having a hard time making it to their jobs in Downtown Detroit
- Gilbert's casino customers can't easily get to the casino during the morning rush hour


I'd like to focus more on these questions:

- Is this a positive change?
- Is it happening at no-cost to the taxpayers?

I'm very certain it's a positive change, even if it's only until we decide to do something more permanent to I-375.

Is it happening at no-cost? The article and Rob Morosi quotes seem to suggest that. Also, the size of the project isn't that large [[see my estimation above). It would seem that 1.25 million could get that done.

To me this seems like a slam-dunk. Most of the nay-sayers seem to hate freeways in general and aren't looking at the merits of this free project that effects one exit ramp.

It's not that this project is a colossal expansion of the freeway system. It's that:

1) It continues the wrong-headed, outdated mindset that every possible "destination" needs its own freeway ramp. Because God forbid people have to use surface streets or walk a whole block.

2) It's an expansion of the roadway network at a time when Vehicle Miles Traveled is *decreasing*.

3) Billionaires in Detroit will get whatever they want, no matter how dumb, and no matter what the people need. Fascism at its finest.

[Scottathew]

1) It continues the wrong-headed, outdated mindset that every possible "destination" needs its own freeway ramp. Because God forbid people have to use surface streets or walk a whole block.

2) It's an expansion of the roadway network at a time when Vehicle Miles Traveled is *decreasing*.

3) Billionaires in Detroit will get whatever they want, no matter how dumb, and no matter what the people need. Fascism at its finest.

1) So fixing a dangerous bottleneck isn't desirable?

2) Downtown Detroit has seen much more vehicle traffic than what it is getting 5 years ago. Vehicle traffic in this spot has increased greatly. I don't know where you're getting your statistics from.

3) So because he's "The Man" and he's willing to fix an infrastructure problem for us, we shouldn't do it? This reason isn't even valid. Is it a good thing to fix this bottleneck? If so, then who the f*ck cares if a billionaire is willing to pay for it.

[ghettopalmetto]

1) So fixing a dangerous bottleneck isn't desirable?

2) Downtown Detroit has seen much more vehicle traffic than what it is getting 5 years ago. Vehicle traffic in this spot has increased greatly. I don't know where you're getting your statistics from.

3) So because he's "The Man" and he's willing to fix an infrastructure problem for us, we shouldn't do it? This reason isn't even valid. Is it a good thing to fix this bottleneck? If so, then who the f*ck cares if a billionaire is willing to pay for it.

That's nice. Please give the 1950s my love.

[motz]

Hey, when all sorts of young folks into walkability and transit are excited about MDOT boulevarding I-375, and a billionaire exerts his influence to expand I-375 MORE, again, you're showing people who matters in this town. Why should these young people who value walkability and density take any of this "Detroit: We've got our act together now" stuff seriously? When billionaires have much more control over urban layout than the actual people the city hopes to attract, then it just puts the lie to all this happy talk.

Remember, young folks: Want rapid transit? Want a city that cares about density? Want city leaders who listen to you and give you what you desire?

Run away. Run away as fast as your supple legs can carry you.

Yeah, I've decided I am moving to another city because Dan Gilbert decided to alleviate a huge traffic bottleneck with his own money. I'd rather live in a city that already has its stuff together and is already perfect. What was I thinking, living in this dumb, backwards city?

[Scottathew]

Yeah, I've decided I am moving to another city because Dan Gilbert decided to alleviate a huge traffic bottleneck with his own money. I'd rather live in a city that already has its stuff together and is already perfect. What was I thinking, living in this dumb, backwards city?

[Sarcasm]But widening this exit ramp will decrease walkability for anyone wanting to go from the service drive down to I-375. Now when people want to walk directly onto I-375 they'll have to find a safer way to get there.[/sarcasm]

People are still excited about the possibilities for I-375. This exit is just such an issue that it can't wait.

[ghettopalmetto]

People are still excited about the possibilities for I-375. This exit is just such an issue that it can't wait.

Clearly. The biggest problems Detroit has always had are that there aren't enough roads, not enough parking, and you can't push 100 mph driving through downtown. Isn't it obvious that nobody can get to the Greektown Casino at present? Better let Dan Gilbert build whatever public infrastructure he sees fit...the better to let people shower cash upon him unabated. If a couple pedestrians get run down, fuck'em. If it creates traffic jams for non-Greektown patrons, well screw those fools. Hell, build the God damned off-ramp so it goes directly into the Greektown Casino garage, and put a toll booth on it. It'll improve the economy or something.

But if you want so much as to plant a tree on your tree lawn, MDOT will force you to remove such a "dangerous obstacle". It's pretty clear who Detroit and Michigan work for, and it certainly isn't any of you schmucks.

[animatedmartian]

Who knew 30 feet of extra pavement was such a sensitive issue.

Also, I'm not sure if you've driven into a tree before, but typically cars don't go very far when a tree is place in front them.

[Scottathew]

Clearly. The biggest problems Detroit has always had are that there aren't enough roads, not enough parking, and you can't push 100 mph driving through downtown. Isn't it obvious that nobody can get to the Greektown Casino at present? Better let Dan Gilbert build whatever public infrastructure he sees fit...the better to let people shower cash upon him unabated. If a couple pedestrians get run down, fuck'em. If it creates traffic jams for non-Greektown patrons, well screw those fools. Hell, build the God damned off-ramp so it goes directly into the Greektown Casino garage, and put a toll booth on it. It'll improve the economy or something.

But if you want so much as to plant a tree on your tree lawn, MDOT will force you to remove such a "dangerous obstacle". It's pretty clear who Detroit and Michigan work for, and it certainly isn't any of you schmucks.

One again, you're ranting more about WHO is funding it, rather than whether it's a good idea or not.

Explain to me how this project will cause more danger to pedestrians? Have you looks at a map and what they're proposing to do?

Also, there are not going to be toll booths, as much as anti-freeway people want to wish them into existence.

[Honky Tonk]

Clearly. The biggest problems Detroit has always had are that there aren't enough roads, not enough parking, and you can't push 100 mph driving through downtown. Isn't it obvious that nobody can get to the Greektown Casino at present? Better let Dan Gilbert build whatever public infrastructure he sees fit...the better to let people shower cash upon him unabated. If a couple pedestrians get run down, fuck'em. If it creates traffic jams for non-Greektown patrons, well screw those fools. Hell, build the God damned off-ramp so it goes directly into the Greektown Casino garage, and put a toll booth on it. It'll improve the economy or something.

But if you want so much as to plant a tree on your tree lawn, MDOT will force you to remove such a "dangerous obstacle". It's pretty clear who Detroit and Michigan work for, and it certainly isn't any of you schmucks.

There are actual [[Detroiters) people that live in that neighborhood and use that ramp daily for commutes. With the Lion's and Tiger's and the Casino, [[oh my), it turns into one huge PITA cluster, especially on the weekends. There have been multiple car pile-ups and injuries regularly. But you've been there, done that, had your vehicle run into, and knew all that, before you went into your hang Gilbert and automobile owners by the testicles, where's my free choo-choo tirade. Think about this, though, if Gilbert makes no profits, and pays no taxes, how is the Santa Gummint going to be able to afford to bring you a nice shiny choo-choo for Christmas?

[ghettopalmetto]

One again, you're ranting more about WHO is funding it, rather than whether it's a good idea or not.

It's a terrible idea. I thought I made that pretty clear. Show me the traffic study that justifies this. Oh, the existing ramp handles a whole 1600 cars an hour? For how many hours a day--one? And explain to me why it's a good idea to build freeway off-ramps to "preferred" private businesses? Wasn't the whole idea of the casinos to generate "vibrancy" downtown?

Moving Cars does not create a vibrant city. Funnelling cars directly to Gilbert's Pleasure Palace even less so. But maybe in the next century, Detroit will get its head out of its collective ass, after learning the first 5000 years worth of city-building principles. That is, if it's not too late.
Further, there is an extremely dangerous precedent here. Dan Gilbert is accountable to NO ONE. So how does he unilaterally get to decide public policy and prioritize public infrastructure projects? Do you not see how this idea can bite Detroit in the ass in the future? Or have we now elevated Dan Gilbert to Ilitch status, where we let him do whatever he wants because he's a billionaire who owns downtown real estate?

[ghettopalmetto]

There are actual [[Detroiters) people that live in that neighborhood and use that ramp daily for commutes. With the Lion's and Tiger's and the Casino, [[oh my), it turns into one huge PITA cluster, especially on the weekends. There have been multiple car pile-ups and injuries regularly. But you've been there, done that, had your vehicle run into, and knew all that, before you went into your hang Gilbert and automobile owners by the testicles, where's my free choo-choo tirade. Think about this, though, if Gilbert makes no profits, and pays no taxes, how is the Santa Gummint going to be able to afford to bring you a nice shiny choo-choo for Christmas?

Nobody told Detroit to build a giant drive-in-drive-out Entertainment Shopping Mall at the same God damned intersection.

I could give a shit if Dan Gilbert makes Dollar One. He has an army of accountants that make sure he pays as little as possible in taxes, and he's certainly not the only person who lives in Detroit.

This is just more of the same old Good Ole Boy Network, picking Winners and Losers in the continued hoodwinking of Detroit.

[iheartthed]

One again, you're ranting more about WHO is funding it, rather than whether it's a good idea or not.

What happens when he wants to pay for something that you don't like? Does he still get to do it just because he put his own money into it? He didn't have to ask for your input when it was something that he liked, so why does he have to ask your input when he wants to pay for something you don't like? That is why this is a bad idea. Michigan is not this desperate. If it is this desperate then it needs to re-evaluate some of its other priorities.

[bailey]

What happens when he wants to pay for something that you don't like? Does he still get to do it just because he put his own money into it? He didn't have to ask for your input when it was something that he liked, so why does he have to ask your input when he wants to pay for something you don't like? That is why this is a bad idea. Michigan is not this desperate. If it is this desperate then it needs to re-evaluate some of its other priorities.

its an exit ramp that anyone who uses it can recognize as being undersized to handle the amount of traffic there. This isn't matty maroun rerouting truck traffic through a neighborhood, it's an off ramp into a 99% business and entertainment area.

It's a stop gap measure until there is a 375 master plan.

[bailey]

It's a terrible idea. I thought I made that pretty clear. Show me the traffic study that justifies this. Oh, the existing ramp handles a whole 1600 cars an hour? For how many hours a day--one? And explain to me why it's a good idea to build freeway off-ramps to "preferred" private businesses? Wasn't the whole idea of the casinos to generate "vibrancy" downtown?

Moving Cars does not create a vibrant city. Funnelling cars directly to Gilbert's Pleasure Palace even less so. But maybe in the next century, Detroit will get its head out of its collective ass, after learning the first 5000 years worth of city-building principles. That is, if it's not too late.
Further, there is an extremely dangerous precedent here. Dan Gilbert is accountable to NO ONE. So how does he unilaterally get to decide public policy and prioritize public infrastructure projects? Do you not see how this idea can bite Detroit in the ass in the future? Or have we now elevated Dan Gilbert to Ilitch status, where we let him do whatever he wants because he's a billionaire who owns downtown real estate?

But allowing him to plunk a trolley down the single busiest surface artery to better funnel folks to his and other oligarch's preferred businesses in the city is totally fine?

[Scottathew]

What happens when he wants to pay for something that you don't like? Does he still get to do it just because he put his own money into it? He didn't have to ask for your input when it was something that he liked, so why does he have to ask your input when he wants to pay for something you don't like? That is why this is a bad idea. Michigan is not this desperate. If it is this desperate then it needs to re-evaluate some of its other priorities.

M-DOT does things all the time without asking me. Sometimes I like those decisions. Sometimes I don't. Sometimes they're funded with state money. Sometimes they're funded with federal money. Sometimes they're funded by the Canadian government.

Your objection is not valid, because I am never asked before ANY road project, regardless of funding.

M-DOT, which is put in place by our elected officials is in charge of those decisions. If we don't like this off ramp expansion, we can complain to M-DOT and our elected officials. But since it's a good and free thing, I'm not going to complain.

I have complained to M-DOT before about road projects. Sometimes I've got the response I wanted, and other times I got my opinion acknowledged, but they went against it.


Stop worrying about the WHO and worry about the WHAT.

[ghettopalmetto]

What happens when he wants to pay for something that you don't like? Does he still get to do it just because he put his own money into it? He didn't have to ask for your input when it was something that he liked, so why does he have to ask your input when he wants to pay for something you don't like? That is why this is a bad idea. Michigan is not this desperate. If it is this desperate then it needs to re-evaluate some of its other priorities.

Well, Dan Gilbert is a billionaire, so that means he's smarter than me and always knows what's best for me, so I'll just shut up. We wouldn't want people to start thinking that free enterprise has a downside, and that government protection of public interest is necessary. Because *GASP* that could blow a gaping hole in someone's irrational ideology.

Dan Gilbert tore down a historic building in downtown Cleveland because he "needed" the land to build a new parking garage. Then he proposed this monstrosity for the site of the building he razed. Should the City of Cleveland had allowed him to proceed? I mean, it's Dan's money, right?

http://www.cleveland.com/business/in...eland_own.html

Be careful who you choose as your saints.

[Scottathew]

Well, Dan Gilbert is a billionaire, so that means he's smarter than me and always knows what's best for me, so I'll just shut up. We wouldn't want people to start thinking that free enterprise has a downside, and that government protection of public interest is necessary. Because *GASP* that could blow a gaping hole in someone's irrational ideology.

Dan Gilbert tore down a historic building in downtown Cleveland because he "needed" the land to build a new parking garage. Then he proposed this monstrosity for the site of the building he razed. Should the City of Cleveland had allowed him to proceed? I mean, it's Dan's money, right?

http://www.cleveland.com/business/in...eland_own.html

Be careful who you choose as your saints.

Dan Gilbert's a billionaire, so we shouldn't add two lanes onto an freeway exit ramp!

I want to paint Dan Gilbert as arrogant, so we shouldn't add two lanes onto an freeway exit ramp!

I'm going to suggest that there's something wrong with capitalism, so we shouldn't add two lanes onto an freeway exit ramp!

Dan Gilbert tore down a historic [[thanks for not saying "an historic", that drives me nuts) building 400 miles from here, so we shouldn't add two lanes onto an freeway exit ramp!

Dan Gilbert made a casino in Ohio, so we shouldn't add two lanes onto an freeway exit ramp!

[iheartthed]

M-DOT does things all the time without asking me. Sometimes I like those decisions. Sometimes I don't. Sometimes they're funded with state money. Sometimes they're funded with federal money. Sometimes they're funded by the Canadian government.

Your objection is not valid, because I am never asked before ANY road project, regardless of funding.

M-DOT, which is put in place by our elected officials is in charge of those decisions. If we don't like this off ramp expansion, we can complain to M-DOT and our elected officials. But since it's a good and free thing, I'm not going to complain.

I have complained to M-DOT before about road projects. Sometimes I've got the response I wanted, and other times I got my opinion acknowledged, but they went against it.


Stop worrying about the WHO and worry about the WHAT.

I tried. This discussion is stupid. Carry on.

[ghettopalmetto]

Dan Gilbert's a billionaire, so we shouldn't add two lanes onto an freeway exit ramp!

I want to paint Dan Gilbert as arrogant, so we shouldn't add two lanes onto an freeway exit ramp!

I'm going to suggest that there's something wrong with capitalism, so we shouldn't add two lanes onto an freeway exit ramp!

Dan Gilbert tore down a historic [[thanks for not saying "an historic", that drives me nuts) building 400 miles from here, so we shouldn't add two lanes onto an freeway exit ramp!

Dan Gilbert made a casino in Ohio, so we shouldn't add two lanes onto an freeway exit ramp!

Last I checked, MDOT was a public agency. They're responsible to the general public--not to serve the needs of well-heeled individuals. There's nothing "capitalist" about appropriating public infrastructure for the profit of private individuals and companies--that, my friend, is fascism.

So if this new off-ramp is so necessary, where are the traffic studies? Where is the public vetting process? I-375, after all, is a federal highway. And will there be a traffic signal at the end of the off-ramp, or are we just going to let cars fly through downtown and mow down the pedestrians Detroit claims to want?

I used the example of Gilbert's proposed "sculpture" in Cleveland to illustrate how idiotic it is to hand the keys to the wealthy and entitled carte blanche. NO more, no less. And last I checked, Cleveland is less than 175 miles from Detroit. So you might want to invest in a good set of maps, 48307.

[Spartan]

There are already three additional exit lanes from 375 to Greektown. Larned and Jefferson. However, no one ever uses those.

[bailey]

I tried. This discussion is stupid. Carry on.

exactly... but I'm guessing we don't agree as to the "why" it's so stupid.

[Scottathew]

And last I checked, Cleveland is less than 175 miles from Detroit. So you might want to invest in a good set of maps, 48307.

I wanted to come back too!