Gilbert to widen 375 off-ramp

[Gannon]

And y'all took my bitching about private monies being spent and torqued it to stupidity. I meant private funding DIRECTLY applied, not through bonds. Nice obfuscation, though.

[ghettopalmetto]

The issue with I-94 is that it needs to be reconstructed. It is 70 years old for gosh sakes. When this happens MDOT would be sued if it was rebuilt as-is as it is also a 70 year old design. How many left exits and entrances are there? Do you realize how unsafe those are? What does that do to how the roadway operates? How about the bridges? Pre National Highway System Bridges are too low meaning that trucks have to detour the route often times causing congestion and delay on other routes.

Someone's been listening to the traffic engineers, where faster = "safer", widening = "improvement" and predictions based on outdated Leave-it-to-Beaver-era assumptions are treated as Gospel. The only consideration is "How many damn vehicles can we run through here as quickly as possible?". Always.

[iheartthed]

iheartthed - What you wrote above in post #21 is EXACTLY what The City of Detroit
is doing in regard to the entire DWSD fiasco.
The Detroit City Junk bonds are transformed into State Muni Bonds, in a money laundering scheme.

If a few financial guru's like Gilbert, Buffet, etc. and a few banks; agreed to buy the Bonds,
a roadway construction project for the city ""could"" be accomplished via State Bonds.

My point is that most [[all?) road construction in Detroit is already paid for via state bonds, and has been for a long time. The city of Detroit does not maintain the major road arteries.

[Gistok]

iheartthed - What you wrote above in post #21 is EXACTLY what The City of Detroit
is doing in regard to the entire DWSD fiasco.
The Detroit City Junk bonds are transformed into State Muni Bonds, in a money laundering scheme.

If a few financial guru's like Gilbert, Buffet, etc. and a few banks; agreed to buy the Bonds,
a roadway construction project

WHOA.... money laundering scheme?

Here's a snippet from what the Michigan Municipal Bonding Authority's mission is all about...

Michigan Municipal Bond Authority’s Local Government Loan Program

"The Michigan Department of Treasury’s Michigan Municipal Bond Authority [[MMBA) offers a variety of financing programs to Michigan municipalities. All Michigan local governmental units and public entities are generally eligible to participate in the MMBA’s Local Government Loan Program to finance a variety of capital expenditures including the purchase of equipment, school buses, fire trucks, real property, energy conservation improvements, and infrastructure needs, and to refinance existing debt. The Program provides competitive interest rates for 3 to 30 year loans.

Participation in the Program could result in cost savings for your township, city or other local governmental unit, compared to other financing alternatives. The Program does not require an application fee and interest rates for Local Government Loan Program financings vary depending on the loan type and the loan period. Under the Program, borrowers may pledge state aid as security for the loans and also have the option of using their own investment credit or bond insurance, if available."


I don't know where you get that this is a money laundering scheme...

http://www.michigan.gov/treasury/0,4...5605--,00.html

[Detroitnerd]

DUR was forbidden by the city to increase fares to make up for the big increase in wages during the post WWI time frame. Their charters were expiring in many cities along their lines with the cities eager to "milk the cow" during charter renewal. The city of Detroit was really putting the screws to them. After they sold out to Detroit [[for bottom dollar), the city immediately raised fares. FACT. Do you dispute that?

All of those eeeeeevullll transit trusts that you claim were exploiting the public went broke or got out of the transit business. The only successful transit company was Scioto Valley in Ohio, which just transitioned from transit to selling electricity.

You really need to read Schramm, Henning, and Dwormann's history of the DSR [[2 volumes). Their other books on the SE Michigan interurbans are also worth reading. Some more technical and financial analysis of transit can be found in Hilton and Due, "The Electric Interurban in America".

I've read all that stuff. The problem is that you simply worship so loyally at the altar of free enterprise and big bad gummint that you botch the story, even if some of your facts are correct.

The traction trusts were the exploiters, and refused to invest in or modernize or electrify until forced to do so. By the city. By people like Pingree.

Sure, after buying the lines, the city raised fares. Because the lines they were given were all played out and hadn't been invested in properly.

Anyway, don't tell me to read those books. Tell your grandmother how to suck eggs.

[Bham1982]

E Perhaps we can demolish half of Greektown for him to make sure that there's plenty of easy parking.

We're already doing that.

The whole Gilbert "redevelopment plan" for the jail and courts is just a parking play. Greektown Casino has been a turkey from Day 1 mainly because the parking sucks relative to the other casinos.

And this thread is certainly telling in how everyone in Metro Detroit is drinking the Quicken kool-aid. On DYes, 90% of the people have a problem with expanding freeway capacity, but when Saint Gilbert does it to benefit his investments, it's apparently a good thing.

[Scottathew]

The left-hand exit off I-375 to Madison is another huge danger in the mornings...so if they really want to make right...

I actually like the left-hand EXIT for Madison, it's the entrance that's dangerous.

The left-hand exit gets the Madison traffic away from the I-75 backups going into the curve and away from GM people that want to go 120 MPH on I-375.

[iheartthed]

We're already doing that.

The whole Gilbert "redevelopment plan" for the jail and courts is just a parking play. Greektown Casino has been a turkey from Day 1 mainly because the parking sucks relative to the other casinos.

And this thread is certainly telling in how everyone in Metro Detroit is drinking the Quicken kool-aid. On DYes, 90% of the people have a problem with expanding freeway capacity, but when Saint Gilbert does it to benefit his investments, it's apparently a good thing.

I don't think this is a freeway widening. He's just paying to have the exit ramp altered.

And I'm not really a fan of private enterprise funding public works [[and especially not the vice versa), but the precedent is already set with the M1-Rail. I don't see how this is much different from that.

[DetroitPlanner]

I don't think this is a freeway widening. He's just paying to have the exit ramp altered.

And I'm not really a fan of private enterprise funding public works [[and especially not the vice versa), but the precedent is already set with the M1-Rail. I don't see how this is much different from that.

I don't think that 90 percent of the issue with I-94 is a congestion issue as opposed to an operations issue yet I get lambasted over it anyways. Heck I KNOW it is an operational issue. Welcome to my world. Bottom line is there is never enough money to keep everyone satisfied. Even when you get private sector involvement people still complain.

BTW, bonds are just robbing Peter to pay Paul. Eventually someone loses in most cases.

[ghettopalmetto]

Bottom line is there is never enough money to keep everyone satisfied. Even when you get private sector involvement people still complain.

This is *precisely* why it's insane to add any more lane-miles of pavement in the state of Michigan. Nobody will ever be able to afford to maintain it.

[Scottathew]

I don't think this is a freeway widening. He's just paying to have the exit ramp altered.

And I'm not really a fan of private enterprise funding public works [[and especially not the vice versa), but the precedent is already set with the M1-Rail. I don't see how this is much different from that.

From what I read, you're correct. The exit ramp is a bottle-neck. This isn't unprecedented. There are many exit ramps with multiple lanes. Just off the top of my head I-75@ 8 Mile, I-75 @ Madison, I-75 @ Rochester Road.

For those of you who are upset about it, what are the negatives to widening the ramp? The only negative that I can think of is if any public money is involved, it could possibly be a waste if we redo I-375 into some other configuration.

[iheartthed]

I don't think that 90 percent of the issue with I-94 is a congestion issue as opposed to an operations issue yet I get lambasted over it anyways. Heck I KNOW it is an operational issue. Welcome to my world. Bottom line is there is never enough money to keep everyone satisfied. Even when you get private sector involvement people still complain.

Well, the difference is that I-94 is indeed a widening project. I'm certain that they can fix whatever operational issues there are with 94 without widening it.

BTW, bonds are just robbing Peter to pay Paul. Eventually someone loses in most cases.

How else would governments finance infrastructure projects?

[gnome]

The truth: the traffic backs up onto 375 because of Greektown Casino. The owners Greektown reportedly will pony up and pay to correct that unsafe situation.

anyone who has a problem with fixing problems is being silly for silly reasons.

[iheartthed]

For those of you who are upset about it, what are the negatives to widening the ramp? The only negative that I can think of is if any public money is involved, it could possibly be a waste if we redo I-375 into some other configuration.

This sort of raises the question I have with using private money for public works. The state and city are already talking about the potential end of life for I-375, so how does using Greektown's money to update this ramp factor into that discussion? What if the public's wishes for I-375 becomes at odds with what Greektown Casino wants?

[jackie5275]

I don't think this is a freeway widening. He's just paying to have the exit ramp altered.

Which is something I find interesting because years ago, when a muncipal parking garage sat on that same site, you could exit the ramp and immediately turn right onto Macomb street. Once that garge was torn down in favor of the Gilbert garage, you lost that ability from time to time. The casino had adjustable posts put in across the service drive where you could turn onto Macomb. Whenever they wanted or needed, these posts would be raised blocking you from turning onto Macomb and forcing you to stay on the service drive. These posts were used for about 2-3 yrs. Then they just went and put a divider in the service drive. You can no longer turn right onto Macomb unless you go over this divider. If you are coming down the service drive from Clinton, you're forced onto Macomb & can't continue on the service drive. The target is to get folks into the Gilbert garage. However, if you want to drive around conveniently in the area, you're not allowed to do so anymore, particularly if you're going to or from the existing jail area. I guess you don't dare interfere with any of the casino traffic.

[iheartthed]

Which is something I find interesting because years ago, when a muncipal parking garage sat on that same site, you could exit the ramp and immediately turn right onto Macomb street. Once that garge was torn down in favor of the Gilbert garage, you lost that ability from time to time. The casino had adjustable posts put in across the service drive where you could turn onto Macomb. Whenever they wanted or needed, these posts would be raised blocking you from turning onto Macomb and forcing you to stay on the service drive. These posts were used for about 2-3 yrs. Then they just went and put a divider in the service drive. You can no longer turn right onto Macomb unless you go over this divider. If you are coming down the service drive from Clinton, you're forced onto Macomb & can't continue on the service drive. The target is to get folks into the Gilbert garage. However, if you want to drive around conveniently in the area, you're not allowed to do so anymore, particularly if you're going to or from the existing jail area. I guess you don't dare interfere with any of the casino traffic.

I remember being able to turn onto Macomb too. I thought they did that because people making that turn caused traffic to back up onto the freeway. But... lol.

[Gpwrangler]

Someone's been listening to the traffic engineers, where faster = "safer", widening = "improvement" and predictions based on outdated Leave-it-to-Beaver-era assumptions are treated as Gospel. The only consideration is "How many damn vehicles can we run through here as quickly as possible?". Always.

Sucks but fact is most of us drive 'em and 94 was built to handle cars with bias ply tires which were OK for 50mph. Nowadays we do 80 and need engineered roads.

[ghettopalmetto]

Sucks but fact is most of us drive 'em and 94 was built to handle cars with bias ply tires which were OK for 50mph. Nowadays we do 80 and need engineered roads.

So cash-strapped MDOT is supposed to find over $1 billion just so you can drive through Detroit 20mph over the speed limit?

[Gpwrangler]

So cash-strapped MDOT is supposed to find over $1 billion just so you can drive through Detroit 20mph over the speed limit?

It's what we do in the Motor City. I go with the traffic.
and when "cash strapped MDOT" rebuilds a freeway it needs to be up to modern speeds and standards, not dialed down to timid drivers who try to merge onto the freeway at 45mph.

[animatedmartian]

This sort of raises the question I have with using private money for public works. The state and city are already talking about the potential end of life for I-375, so how does using Greektown's money to update this ramp factor into that discussion? What if the public's wishes for I-375 becomes at odds with what Greektown Casino wants?

Greektown will easily make it's money back. By the time MDOT is ready to do something with 375 [[which could be years away), Greektown will have made their $1.25 million dollars back 100 times over. It's a discussion that isn't needed.

[Detroitnerd]

Hey, when all sorts of young folks into walkability and transit are excited about MDOT boulevarding I-375, and a billionaire exerts his influence to expand I-375 MORE, again, you're showing people who matters in this town. Why should these young people who value walkability and density take any of this "Detroit: We've got our act together now" stuff seriously? When billionaires have much more control over urban layout than the actual people the city hopes to attract, then it just puts the lie to all this happy talk.

Remember, young folks: Want rapid transit? Want a city that cares about density? Want city leaders who listen to you and give you what you desire?

Run away. Run away as fast as your supple legs can carry you.

[iheartthed]

Greektown will easily make it's money back. By the time MDOT is ready to do something with 375 [[which could be years away), Greektown will have made their $1.25 million dollars back 100 times over. It's a discussion that isn't needed.

It's irrelevant how much money Greektown makes between now and whenever MDOT makes that decision. Greektown Casino put its own money into that exit ramp, so naturally Greektown Casino will expect to be part of the decision making process for whatever is decided for I-375.

[animatedmartian]

It's irrelevant how much money Greektown makes between now and whenever MDOT makes that decision. Greektown Casino put its own money into that exit ramp, so naturally Greektown Casino will expect to be part of the decision making process for whatever is decided for I-375.

Well, they already were. MDOT included them as well as other businesses and entities along 375 when they did their study a year ago.

http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,...5--RSS,00.html

[Scottathew]

This sort of raises the question I have with using private money for public works. The state and city are already talking about the potential end of life for I-375, so how does using Greektown's money to update this ramp factor into that discussion? What if the public's wishes for I-375 becomes at odds with what Greektown Casino wants?

I'm guessing that Gilbert would welcome several of the I-375 alternatives, but he probably needs a solution NOW, not years from now and is willing to pay over a million to get a temporary solution.

My only issue would be if one dime of public money was used. Public money shouldn't be used for such a temporary solution when a permanent overhaul is possibly on the horizon. Even if Gilbert was to fund 90% of the project, the other 10% would be too much to waste.

[Scottathew]

Couple things here folks.

#1 - This isn't adding THREE lanes like the OP stated, it's adding TWO lanes [[for a total of three lanes, 1 existing, 2 new) to the EXIT RAMP, not the freeway itself
#2 - One of the lanes is a dedicated turn lane onto Macomb street
#3 - The left two lanes are through lanes to Lafayette and Monroe

Here is the artist's rendering:



This is what I estimate the project to be:




Now does anyone want to discuss the actual details of this project? Or go back to bashing "the man" and talking about how this is a colossal expansion of our freeway system that will no doubt lead to the decommissioning of all D-DOT buses?

Also, I think the congestion has far less to do with the casino and far more to do with all the glorious jobs that are now crammed into the CBD. This has two negative effects for Gilbert:

- Gilbert's workers are having a hard time making it to their jobs in Downtown Detroit
- Gilbert's casino customers can't easily get to the casino during the morning rush hour


I'd like to focus more on these questions:

- Is this a positive change?
- Is it happening at no-cost to the taxpayers?

I'm very certain it's a positive change, even if it's only until we decide to do something more permanent to I-375.

Is it happening at no-cost? The article and Rob Morosi quotes seem to suggest that. Also, the size of the project isn't that large [[see my estimation above). It would seem that 1.25 million could get that done.

To me this seems like a slam-dunk. Most of the nay-sayers seem to hate freeways in general and aren't looking at the merits of this free project that effects one exit ramp.