What one event would cause you to question Detroit's rebirth potential?

[FormerDetroiter]

Most powerful people in Metro Detroit vs. most powerful people in the United States. DIA vs. Kennedy Center. Steak houses vs. world-class restaurants. Michigan and MSU grads vs. Ivy, elite grad, law and medical school grads. People that live on the coasts for more than a few years become complete snobs about any and everything Midwest. Just the way it is.

Complete snobs? Who elected you spokesperson for people who live on "the coasts?"

[Bham1982]

Most powerful people in Metro Detroit vs. most powerful people in the United States. DIA vs. Kennedy Center. Steak houses vs. world-class restaurants. Michigan and MSU grads vs. Ivy, elite grad, law and medical school grads. People that live on the coasts for more than a few years become complete snobs about any and everything Midwest. Just the way it is.

Eh, not buying it. DC is not a huge draw for the most powerful people, and has never been a big Ivy League draw. Ivy Leaguers are in NYC. Wealth and power is mostly in NYC.

DC, as a whole, is small potatoes. It's important because the U.S. is important, but the city and metro are prosperous because it happens to be the capital of the world's most powerful country.

The lifestyles are not that different from those of Detroit [[in fact even the lifestyles of anyone anywhere in the U.S., on average, are not that different from Detroit, even in the NYC area).

[bailey]

You'll also notice that those cities are state capitals. We really messed up in Michigan by taking both the capital AND the major state university out of Detroit. If you don't have an asset like that in the modern Midwest, you're almost screwed. Lansing and Ann Arbor would resemble Jackson or Battle Creek without the largesse of the public [[actually, Lansing probably wouldn't exist). We're propping those cities up at the cost of our bigger, more important cities.

Wayne State is #3 at like 35-36k student population. That is Big Ten type enrollment. The problem is it's set up as a commuter school. That mistake is being rectified with the construction of dorms and rental housing aimed at WSU students. Commuters need parking...not book stores, shops, housing..etc. WSU is getting closer to being the multiplier it should have always been.

[nain rouge]

Wayne State is #3 at like 35-36k student population.

Actually, it's at 27k total. Oakland University is constantly trying to steal its thunder and sits at 20k. Looking at Forbes' university rankings [[which I'll use because it has the most convenient online database), Wayne State comes in at 574; Oakland 613; Michigan State 169; U of M 45. Wayne State is most comparable to Western, Central, and Eastern Michigan, though just slightly ahead. It's symptomatic of our typical regional weakness that we've spent so much time and money on Oakland, when we could've been pushing Wayne State to the next level. Another lost opportunity in a region that shoots itself in the foot way too often.

I remember when I was semi-forced to attend a Thomas L. Friedman lecture at Oakland, and he was basically mocking us for pouring so much money into OU. His basic conclusion was that none of it made any sense.

[anonJD]

Eh, not buying it. DC is not a huge draw for the most powerful people, and has never been a big Ivy League draw. Ivy Leaguers are in NYC. Wealth and power is mostly in NYC.

DC, as a whole, is small potatoes. It's important because the U.S. is important, but the city and metro are prosperous because it happens to be the capital of the world's most powerful country.

The lifestyles are not that different from those of Detroit [[in fact even the lifestyles of anyone anywhere in the U.S., on average, are not that different from Detroit, even in the NYC area).

Most of the time you know what you're talking about on here. In this example you're talking out of your -ss. Just stop. The way you're talking, I doubt you've been to DC once in the last 10 years, outside of maybe a field trip for secondary school.

[poobert]

I think we all agree there are still challenges, sure, but definitely signs of positive momentum around the city, especially the last five or so years. That said, volatility lurks, so is there one thing that would cause you to second guess the city's turnaround?

[TTime]

Most of the time you know what you're talking about on here. In this example you're talking out of your -ss. Just stop. The way you're talking, I doubt you've been to DC once in the last 10 years, outside of maybe a field trip for secondary school.

After visiting DC and surrounding burbs this week you took the words right out of my mouth. Dead on.

[Bham1982]

MThe way you're talking, I doubt you've been to DC once in the last 10 years, outside of maybe a field trip for secondary school.

I lived in DC after college for a number of years, so no.

And I love your illogical response, as if someone has to live in an area to comment on an area. I guess no one is allowed to have an opinion of anyplace on earth unless they have actually lived in the place.

[animatedmartian]

I lived in DC after college for a number of years, so no.

And I love your illogical response, as if someone has to live in an area to comment on an area. I guess no one is allowed to have an opinion of anyplace on earth unless they have actually lived in the place.

By that logic, a lot less people would have things to say about Detroit.

[Hermod]

Actually, it's at 27k total. Oakland University is constantly trying to steal its thunder and sits at 20k. Looking at Forbes' university rankings [[which I'll use because it has the most convenient online database), Wayne State comes in at 574; Oakland 613; Michigan State 169; U of M 45. Wayne State is most comparable to Western, Central, and Eastern Michigan, though just slightly ahead. It's symptomatic of our typical regional weakness that we've spent so much time and money on Oakland, when we could've been pushing Wayne State to the next level. Another lost opportunity in a region that shoots itself in the foot way too often.

I remember when I was semi-forced to attend a [/COLOR]Thomas L. Friedman lecture at Oakland, and he was basically mocking us for pouring so much money into OU. His basic conclusion was that none of it made any sense.

I think you need to credit the aspirations of the institution to grow and make all of the administrators bigger and better. The alternative [[back then) would have been to tell the "teachers colleges" like Eastern, Western, Central, and Northern that they could only offer degrees in education and that they could not become comprehensive universities offering a wide variety of degrees. Each college administration just tries to expand, expand, expand.

Wayne State is a case in point. It was conceived as a "commuter college" for those not able to go to the "university" and look how it has expanded. I can remember when Oakland in 1961 was just one building in a big muddy field.

Virginia has seen this as well. In 1961 there was a small school in Norfolk which was the Norfolk Division of William and Mary. Now it is Old Dominion University and is about five times the size of William and Mary.

[Hermod]

You'll also notice that those cities are state capitals. We really messed up in Michigan by taking both the capital AND the major state university out of Detroit. If you don't have an asset like that in the modern Midwest, you're almost screwed. Lansing and Ann Arbor would resemble Jackson or Battle Creek without the largesse of the public [[actually, Lansing probably wouldn't exist). We're propping those cities up at the cost of our bigger, more important cities.


Minnesota's Twin Cities are set up ingeniously in that St. Paul is the capital, and Minneapolis is the home of University of Minnesota. In Michigan, everyone outside of Detroit has always wanted to beat up on Detroit, and look where that has gotten us. Of couse, it's too little too late to move either the capital or the university, but you'd think we'd have at least learned from our mistakes.

Florida: Miami big city, Tallahassee capitol, Gainesville university
Illinois: Chicago big city, Springfield capitol, Champaign university.
Virginia: Norfolk big city, Richmond capitol, Charlottesville university
Pennsylvania: Philadelphia big city, Harrisburg capitol, State College university.

[mwilbert]

I lived in DC after college for a number of years, so no.

And I love your illogical response, as if someone has to live in an area to comment on an area. I guess no one is allowed to have an opinion of anyplace on earth unless they have actually lived in the place.

I don't think that is what they said. I think they were suggesting that your comment was sufficiently at odds with reality that you couldn't have been there lately. That doesn't imply that the only way to know something about a place is to visit.

[313WX]

Florida: Miami big city, Tallahassee capitol, Gainesville university
Illinois: Chicago big city, Springfield capitol, Champaign university.
Virginia: Norfolk big city, Richmond capitol, Charlottesville university
Pennsylvania: Philadelphia big city, Harrisburg capitol, State College university.

The University of Chicago [[based in Chicago) is Illinois' equivalent to University of Michigan in terms of academics [[University of Illinois is equivalent to MSU)

The University of Pennsylvania [[based in Philadelphia) is Pennsylvania's equivalent to University of Michigan in terms of academics [[Penn State is equivalent to MSU).

The University of Miami is, more or less, equivalent to University of Florida in terms of academic ranking.

[Bham1982]

Florida: Miami big city, Tallahassee capitol, Gainesville university
Illinois: Chicago big city, Springfield capitol, Champaign university.
Virginia: Norfolk big city, Richmond capitol, Charlottesville university
Pennsylvania: Philadelphia big city, Harrisburg capitol, State College university.

Most states have the state capital and flagship universities outside the main city. Doesn't seem to be a problem in most states.

Look at our largest cities- NYC, LA, Chicago, SF, DC, Houston, Dallas, Philly, Miami, etc.

[Bham1982]

The University of Chicago [[based in Chicago) is Illinois' equivalent to University of Michigan in terms of academics [[University of Illinois is equivalent to MSU)

The University of Pennsylvania [[based in Philadelphia) is Pennsylvania's equivalent to University of Michigan in terms of academics [[Penn State is equivalent to MSU).

The University of Miami is, more or less, equivalent to University of Florida in terms of academic ranking.

Obviously these are relatively small private universities and not remotely equivalent to huge flagship state universities like U-M and MSU.

Private institutions are not subject to state control so it's not really a public policy issue anyways.

[Bham1982]

I don't think that is what they said. I think they were suggesting that your comment was sufficiently at odds with reality that you couldn't have been there lately. That doesn't imply that the only way to know something about a place is to visit.

Well I would argue that living in a place or visiting a place has nothing to do with the claims, which was that DC is a mecca for Ivy League grads.

If anything, living in a place probably makes one more biased and less willing to consider actual data on that area.

[nain rouge]

If it wasn't for the Navy, Norfolk would be screwed. 313WX makes good points about Philadelphia and Chicago. Heck, even U of Miami is way more prestigious than Wayne State.

That said, my original comment was about needing either capital status or top university to survive in "the modern Midwest". If your city is by the coast, you're playing by a whole different set of rules. A coastal location conveys huge advantages.

The Midwest screwed up by penalizing its best cities for being on a good lake or river. "Oh man, Cleveland is on Lake Erie and has a big river - if we give it a major university, it'll take over the state!" We exaggerated the long-term value of being on the Great Lakes. It has/had some important advantages, sure, but nothing like the ocean. Miami is on the ocean and has a tropical climate - that's a serious advantage.

Bottom line, if you could go back in time and either make Detroit the state capital or give it U of M, you save a sizable chunk of the city. I don't see how you could see it any other way. Lansing was basically nothing, and state capital status [[plus Michigan State) made into a mid-sized market of almost 500,000.

Chicago was the only city in Midwest that really ballooned to an outsized level because of its location. It was and remains an exception.

[Bham1982]

Lansing was basically nothing, and state capital status [[plus Michigan State) made into a mid-sized market of almost 500,000.

Lansing doesn't seem particularly healthy, though.

Obviously it's no Flint, but metro Lansing has been stagnant for decades, has low property values, and is not really much of a draw, despite having one of the biggest research universities in the U.S. and a major state capital.

[nain rouge]

Exactly, Bham. Lansing has no other real reasons for existing. It would be Flint without those assets.

[FormerDetroiter]

If it wasn't for the Navy, Norfolk would be screwed. 313WX makes good points about Philadelphia and Chicago. Heck, even U of Miami is way more prestigious than Wayne State.

That said, my original comment was about needing either capital status or top university to survive in "the modern Midwest". If your city is by the coast, you're playing by a whole different set of rules. A coastal location conveys huge advantages.

The Midwest screwed up by penalizing its best cities for being on a good lake or river. "Oh man, Cleveland is on Lake Erie and has a big river - if we give it a major university, it'll take over the state!" We exaggerated the long-term value of being on the Great Lakes. It has/had some important advantages, sure, but nothing like the ocean. Miami is on the ocean and has a tropical climate - that's a serious advantage.

Bottom line, if you could go back in time and either make Detroit the state capital or give it U of M, you save a sizable chunk of the city. I don't see how you could see it any other way. Lansing was basically nothing, and state capital status [[plus Michigan State) made into a mid-sized market of almost 500,000.

Chicago was the only city in Midwest that really ballooned to an outsized level because of its location. It was and remains an exception.

Have you forgotten U-M was started in Detroit?

[nain rouge]

Yeah, when Detroit had U of M, there were like 30,000 people tops in the entire state [[heck, it was still a territory). By the time Michigan was of any consequence, they'd moved U of M to Ann Arbor.

[FormerDetroiter]

[QUOTE=nain rouge;451338]Yeah, when Detroit had U of M, there were like 30,000 people tops in the entire state [[heck, it was still a territory). By the time Michigan was of any consequence, they'd moved U of M to Ann Arbor.[/QUO

As a U-M grad I should know this but who moved U-M to Ann Arbor and why?

[nain rouge]

I don't know the specifics, but I do know that the fad back then was to put universities in idyllic rural settings, inspired by Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson was basically the equivalent of one of those guys that gets tired of Detroit and moves up north to the middle of nowhere.

[FormerDetroiter]

I don't know the specifics, but I do know that the fad back then was to put universities in idyllic rural settings, inspired by Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson was basically the equivalent of one of those guys that gets tired of Detroit and moves up north to the middle of nowhere.

Thanks....I'm sure there's someone on here's who considers themselves an authority on U-M. Probably someone who never went to U-M or been to Ann Arbor or lived in Detroit...

[Hermod]

The University of Chicago [[based in Chicago) is Illinois' equivalent to University of Michigan in terms of academics [[University of Illinois is equivalent to MSU)

The University of Pennsylvania [[based in Philadelphia) is Pennsylvania's equivalent to University of Michigan in terms of academics [[Penn State is equivalent to MSU).

The University of Miami is, more or less, equivalent to University of Florida in terms of academic ranking.

Without regard to the academic excellence of the three institutions you mention, they are all private universities and are not a part of their state higher education system and are not the flagship university of the state.