Militarized Police Departments

[old guy]

the left wing liberal idiots that think that the DOD is the root of all evil and peace will reign on earth when the USA eliminates its military.

F.U. There are left wing liberal idiots and right wing conservative idiots. A better Detroit? A better country? Grow up and understand that the most powerful tactic ever devised was divide and conquer. Assuming that one ideology is correct and the other is corrupt or insignificant is pure ignorance and shows a lack of knowledge about the history of politics and the ways of the world in general.

Can you find me a statistic that states that all liberals feel that the U.S. should eliminate its military? I find most of your statements to be simplistic at best.
The DOD does need more oversight and that goes back to the Eisenhower years. A president that was somewhat aware of how the military industrial complex operated.Of course this is merely my opinion.

[ABetterDetroit]

F.U. There are left wing liberal idiots and right wing conservative idiots. A better Detroit? A better country? Grow up and understand that the most powerful tactic ever devised was divide and conquer. Assuming that one ideology is correct and the other is corrupt or insignificant is pure ignorance and shows a lack of knowledge about the history of politics and the ways of the world in general.

I agree completely! Both the far left and far right are equally filled with people out of touch with reality. If I insult one do I always have to insult the other at the same time? Ok these right wing nut job tea baggers think that by returning govt back to 1880 is a good idea. There answer to this problem would be put a gun on everyone then police wouldn't be needed

[Detroitnerd]

There are few things Americans are more poorly informed about than crime and justice.

This goes back a long, long way. Americans have been persuaded to give up rights in the name of "fighting crime" for almost 100 years. You used to be able to walk to the store and buy morphine and dynamite a century ago. When you think about the rights of the typical [[OK, white, male, landowning, etc.) American of the first part of the 20th century, it's just off the charts compared to today. And the gradual tightening of laws and rules has come with "scare" headlines all the way.

When I think about the way cop shows and court procedurals have taken over television, the way newscasts zoom in on horrific crimes instead of discussing the actual overarching issues, I see the same trend ratcheted up again. A lot of the crime shows are about as realistic as the court shows. Sit and watch a court procedural with somebody familiar with America's inner-city justice system and you'll learn a thing or two -- if they can stop laughing.

A lot of the people who find militarized police kosher think that crime in America is at an all-time high. But these people aren't looking at actual FBI statistics. They're not familiar with the facts, just the mythology: CRIME IS OUT OF CONTROL!

But it isn't. And the low violent crime rate probably has more to do with the loosening of divorce and abortion laws than policing. [[See Freakonomics, for instance.)

So, on the one hand, you have people convinced that America is a war zone, and that police need every weapon under the sun to fight it.

On the other hand, a certain kind of crime IS out of control: White-collar crime. And every year, fewer resources are committed to fighting THAT kind of crime -- which arguably harms more Americans than a thousand committed terrorists ever could.

So this whole thing is really a battle of perceptions. And I think a lot of mainline Republican types figure it's OK, since it's only the dopemen who are gonna get it.

But, yesterday, I heard about a white, middle-class, Republican family out in the Thumb that got a card to grow marijuana due to chronic pain problems. They got a full paramilitary assault. A 60-year-old man was thrown on the ground and screamed at while a chopper circled overhead -- all over three sickly pot plants the police wound up laughing at. So it can happen to anybody, I guarantee it.

Finally, this: You can only fight crime with police to a certain point. We're all sort of trained to think that you fight crime with more and tougher cops. Not so.

Schools fight crime by teaching students how to figure and read and think critically.

After-school activities fight crime by giving young people somewhere to go other than the street.

Payments to support the common welfare fight crime by ensuring nobody needs to knock off a liquor store to keep food on the table.

Taxes and public works fight crime by giving people jobs to go to.

Government-supported vocational training fights crime by giving people a trade.

And yet we're supposed to pin all our hopes on tough supercops with tanks to fight crime? That doesn't make sense.

If you arm police for a war, they'll find it. Just like anybody else. And, in the end, if you want to fight crime with cops dressed and armed like gangsters, what will they become? ...

[ddaydetroit]

I worked on and built wheeled military vehicles for 30 years and that black humvee you could literally shoot a pellet gun thru it the way it is right now it offers no protection the only thing it could be used for is intimidation and if the criminal was ever in the military he wouldn't be to intimidated

[Kevgoblue]

Nice post, Nerd. When you're not flailing at the far far end of the spectrum, you have some very insightful thoughts.

[Detroitnerd]

Nice post, Nerd. When you're not flailing at the far far end of the spectrum, you have some very insightful thoughts.

Well, you're catching me at the end of a three-day weekend, KGB.

[Meddle]

Um...maybe a riot?

The appearance of that stuff is a large reason why things escalated in Ferguson. Had they kept if off the streets, there would have been some demonstrations and people would have gone home without incident. Just like what has happened in the last couple of weeks since the tanks were withdrawn. Demonstrations and protests are continuing without incident.

[Meddle]

It was started in the early 90's... really

Some light reading,

Reading and research are funny things aren't they? People should do more of both before spouting off.

[ABetterDetroit]

Reading and research are funny things aren't they? People should do more of both before spouting off.

I like newspapers better than Wikipedia, not anybody can change and add whatever they dream up. Of course if you are really interested is best to read many sources.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/06/09...partments.html

[Wesley Mouch]

Nice post, Nerd. When you're not flailing at the far far end of the spectrum, you have some very insightful thoughts.

I was thinking just the same thing. Fine post -- and great points.

Most problems require holistic solutions.

Looking at Detroit and our drug problem, we clearly need some military-level equipment. Police cannot be intimidated by drug lords. You end up with northern Mexico. At the same time, we do need to encourage police to see themselves as much more a part of the community, rather than as an occupying force.

Balance.

[Willi]

There is a need for a Hard Core SWAT unit in any major city of the USA.
Should there be 100's of these units going after non-violent criminals, NO !
Many "tasks" can be done by plain clothes detectives without putting everyone on edge.

I've been to Mexico City and nearby areas where fully decked out police in SWAT gear
are a daily presence in the shopping centers and walking the streets.
It is not a comfortable feeling or a pleasant feeling to move about a Police state.

[davewindsor]

I worked on and built wheeled military vehicles for 30 years and that black humvee you could literally shoot a pellet gun thru it the way it is right now it offers no protection the only thing it could be used for is intimidation and if the criminal was ever in the military he wouldn't be to intimidated

Good luck shooting through the armored personal carrier with a pellet gun that Windsor Police just got that was decommissioned from the DND.



Windsor police shotguns are replaced with C8s [[cousins of the M-16).


Windsor parking enforcement officers now have bullet proof vests. It seems a little too much for Canada, but welcome to the brave new world and militarization of police departments all over North America. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windso...onth-1.2748390

[Gpwrangler]

The appearance of that stuff is a large reason why things escalated in Ferguson. Had they kept if off the streets, there would have been some demonstrations and people would have gone home without incident. Just like what has happened in the last couple of weeks since the tanks were withdrawn. Demonstrations and protests are continuing without incident.

Somehow I doubt this.

[Wesley Mouch]

The appearance of that stuff is a large reason why things escalated in Ferguson. Had they kept if off the streets, there would have been some demonstrations and people would have gone home without incident. Just like what has happened in the last couple of weeks since the tanks were withdrawn. Demonstrations and protests are continuing without incident.

I agree that they should have done things with a lot more respect, but I think the looters would have found another reason why they were 'oppressed'.

Blaming the police for looting is just plain naive. Do we think MLK would have looted?

Looting is proof the the problems in Ferguson were on BOTH sides. I don't blame either side more than the others. But I don't forgive the looters because of imperfect and aggressive policing.

[mam2009]

My two cents... For some reason, I have recently "discovered" and come to enjoy watching the reruns of the show, "Detroit SWAT." I see their use of the armored personnel carrier [[and the long arm/ram) on the front as a valuable tool that provides added safety for the officers who deal with barricaded gunmen situations and to penetrate entrances to high risk [[booby-trapped or heavily reinforced) drug houses. The militarized equipment is a tool. And like any other tool, it is only as good or as bad as the person handling it. I don't have a problem with equipment that can make the job of policing more safe as long that is what it's being used for. Stockpiling an arsenal purely to intimidate the citizenry, on the other hand, would be alarming.

[Wesley Mouch]

My two cents... For some reason, I have recently "discovered" and come to enjoy watching the reruns of the show, "Detroit SWAT." I see their use of the armored personnel carrier [[and the long arm/ram) on the front as a valuable tool that provides added safety for the officers who deal with barricaded gunmen situations and to penetrate entrances to high risk [[booby-trapped or heavily reinforced) drug houses. The militarized equipment is a tool. And like any other tool, it is only as good or as bad as the person handling it. I don't have a problem with equipment that can make the job of policing more safe as long that is what it's being used for. Stockpiling an arsenal purely to intimidate the citizenry, on the other hand, would be alarming.

You put it quite simply. The current argument that the equipment is the problem is wrong. The problem is that police need to have better methods for dealing with crowds and mobs. Taking the tools away only harms us all. There are times when police do need intense equipment. But the best equipment is best used in conjunction with wisdom, discretion, and with respect for sociology.

The are many who would take guns away from police too, because they are misused. True. There are civilian deaths from police misuse of the gun tool. But overall we are safer because the police can ultimately 'outgun' the criminals. When our police don't have the tools, the criminals can win. And that's really bad for public safety. See northern Mexico of late for the results of criminals intimidating police.

Tools. Just tools.

[ddaydetroit]

I build that vehicle back while working at AV technology in 1988 it's a dragoon 300

My two cents... For some reason, I have recently "discovered" and come to enjoy watching the reruns of the show, "Detroit SWAT." I see their use of the armored personnel carrier [[and the long arm/ram) on the front as a valuable tool that provides added safety for the officers who deal with barricaded gunmen situations and to penetrate entrances to high risk [[booby-trapped or heavily reinforced) drug houses. The militarized equipment is a tool. And like any other tool, it is only as good or as bad as the person handling it. I don't have a problem with equipment that can make the job of policing more safe as long that is what it's being used for. Stockpiling an arsenal purely to intimidate the citizenry, on the other hand, would be alarming.

[night-timer]

Yes, they are getting readyt to combat "la revolucion" when all of the arts, music, and culture crowd will rise up against Wall Street tyranny and the militarized police will subdue them and move them into the FEMA labor camps that Haliburton has been building the last fifteen years.

They're only coming to round you up if you think you're important enough to matter to them.

[JBMcB]

They're only coming to round you up if you think you're important enough to matter to them.

The main problem is the local police departments often use military hardware on pretty much everyone. There are stories of SWAT teams raiding the homes of deadbeat dads, small-time pot offenders, probation offenders - pretty much anyone. Add on to that the fact they sometimes get the address wrong compounds the issue.

This is one of the worst examples I've seen:
http://www.ijreview.com/2014/02/1151...r-old-man-bed/

I'd be more lenient towards police having heavy military hardware if they didn't screw up quite so often. If they didn't try to cover up their screw-ups. And, if after being found out that they covered up their screw-up, they were actually punished in some fashion. As it stands, unless there is a massive nationwide outcry and the stars align just right, a police officer can pretty much kill anyone for any reason and nothing will happen to them.

[CassTechGrad]

Tuesday, July 15, 2014
JERSEY CITY
Funeral services are scheduled for later this week for officer Melvin Santiago, who was shot early Sunday after he and other officers responded to a report of an armed robbery at a 24-hour drugstore.

Lawrence Campbell, the gunman who killed Officer Santiago never tried to rob the store and instead lay in wait for police, telling a witness to watch the news because he was "going to be famous," authorities said.

Lawrence Campbell shot Officer Santiago in the head shortly after he and his partner arrived at the 24-hour Walgreens around 4 a.m., Jersey City Mayor Steven Fulop said. Other officers returned fire at Campbell, killing him.

Lawrence Campbell, the Dead Cop-killer is now Hailed as a Hero with a Memorial BIGGER than Shrine for Rookie Officer Melvin Santiago who he Shot in the head and killed!

[Dan Wesson]

Tuesday, July 15, 2014
JERSEY CITY
Lawrence Campbell shot Officer Santiago in the head shortly after he and his partner arrived at the 24-hour Walgreens around 4 a.m., Jersey City Mayor Steven Fulop said. Other officers returned fire at Campbell, killing him.

Lawrence Campbell, the Dead Cop-killer is now Hailed as a Hero with a Memorial BIGGER than Shrine for Rookie Officer Melvin Santiago who he Shot in the head and killed!

Vox Populi...

[Wesley Mouch]

The main problem is the local police departments often use military hardware on pretty much everyone. There are stories of SWAT teams raiding the homes of deadbeat dads, small-time pot offenders, probation offenders - pretty much anyone. Add on to that the fact they sometimes get the address wrong compounds the issue.

This is one of the worst examples I've seen:
http://www.ijreview.com/2014/02/1151...r-old-man-bed/

I'd be more lenient towards police having heavy military hardware if they didn't screw up quite so often. If they didn't try to cover up their screw-ups. And, if after being found out that they covered up their screw-up, they were actually punished in some fashion. As it stands, unless there is a massive nationwide outcry and the stars align just right, a police officer can pretty much kill anyone for any reason and nothing will happen to them.

Police work 24/7/365 to protect you from criminals. There are occasional high-profile failures. Is the appropriate to eliminate SWAT teams?

[davewindsor]

Police work 24/7/365 to protect you from criminals. There are occasional high-profile failures. Is the appropriate to eliminate SWAT teams?

Um, not that I am opposed to the militarization of police departments, but who said anything about eliminating SWAT teams? SWAT teams were always heavily armed and are necessary.

The way it looks to me is that the debate is about the standard patrol officer being militarized. For example, with Windsor police, they are replacing the standard police shotgun that would be in the trunk of a regular squad car with a C-6 machine gun [[cousin to the M-16). Willi mentioned that the average Mexican police officer is fully decked out in SWAT gear patrolling shopping centers and streets in Mexico city. In the US, are we talking about regular police officers having machine guns OR are we questioning SWAT teams? Because taking away the equipment from SWAT teams sounds absolutely ridiculous in this day and age, but SWAT teams only make up a small part of a police department and they are much better trained in not accidentally hitting an innocent bystander in an intense situation like a shoot out during a bank robbery. They are the best of the best sharp shooters in a police department.

[davewindsor]

The main problem is the local police departments often use military hardware on pretty much everyone. There are stories of SWAT teams raiding the homes of deadbeat dads, small-time pot offenders, probation offenders - pretty much anyone. ...

There's probably more to the story if they are sending out SWAT teams instead of regular officers to raid the home of a deadbeat dad, etc. Are telling me it's impossible that those suspects would ever be armed and barricaded inside with a machine gun? If the situation is too dangerous and there's a tip that the suspect is armed, you have to send in better equipped SWAT. I'm pretty sure the police union requires it for the safety of the officers.

There is a procedure here that's "supposed" to be followed. For example: The judge gives an officer a warrant. The officer shows up to the address with a warrant to pick up a deadbeat dad, etc. Neighbor comes out and tells the officer that he saw the suspect through the living room window with a machine gun. Officer calls his Staff Sargent. Staff Sargent tells the officer to wait at the scene and calls SWAT.

There's "supposed" to be a number of people involved here before raiding a home.

[Honky Tonk]

Tuesday, July 15, 2014
JERSEY CITY
Funeral services are scheduled for later this week for officer Melvin Santiago, who was shot early Sunday after he and other officers responded to a report of an armed robbery at a 24-hour drugstore.

Lawrence Campbell, the gunman who killed Officer Santiago never tried to rob the store and instead lay in wait for police, telling a witness to watch the news because he was "going to be famous," authorities said.

Lawrence Campbell shot Officer Santiago in the head shortly after he and his partner arrived at the 24-hour Walgreens around 4 a.m., Jersey City Mayor Steven Fulop said. Other officers returned fire at Campbell, killing him.

Lawrence Campbell, the Dead Cop-killer is now Hailed as a Hero with a Memorial BIGGER than Shrine for Rookie Officer Melvin Santiago who he Shot in the head and killed!

F@&% Lawrence Campbell...