I don't know what to think...

[Dan Wesson]

Here is a story about a tragedy that occurred on the west side of our great state. This is also a story about thousands upon thousands of Detroiters. Not only Detroiters but it is occurring everywhere in our great nation. Read it. You can't deny it. It ain't no lie.

Is there a solution? Can Detroit rise from the ashes and raise the standard of living for everyone?

I mean it can't go on like this forever, can it?

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi...uspect_bo.html

[Bobl]

No solution, in this case. It is too late. An incredibly sad story.

[canuck]

Awful. This is an event where the perpetrator was as much a victim as his victim.

As an aside, I also read about the 9 year old girl in Arizona who shot a firing range instructor because in automatic mode, the Uzi she was trying out kicked off and shot the guy in the head. I am not putting these two events on an equal footing but the idea that a 9 yr old kid should be firing a machine gun gets my seal of disapproval.

[Gpwrangler]

Awful. This is an event where the perpetrator was as much a victim as his victim.

As an aside, I also read about the 9 year old girl in Arizona who shot a firing range instructor because in automatic mode, the Uzi she was trying out kicked off and shot the guy in the head. I am not putting these two events on an equal footing but the idea that a 9 yr old kid should be firing a machine gun gets my seal of disapproval.

Stories are not related.

[Jimaz]

... As an aside, I also read about the 9 year old girl in Arizona who shot a firing range instructor because in automatic mode, the Uzi she was trying out kicked off and shot the guy in the head. I am not putting these two events on an equal footing but the idea that a 9 yr old kid should be firing a machine gun gets my seal of disapproval.

When Raising Arizona was released there was an uproar of "righteous" indignation in Arizona about how unfairly the film stereotyped the state. The real problem with that was that the film depicted the culture [[or, more precisely, the lack thereof) so accurately.

Sometimes the best reaction to criticism is to STFU and humbly consider reform. Arizona finds it difficult to master that principle.

But the fundamental problem remains: How can we protect these kids?

[canuck]

When Raising Arizona was released there was an uproar of "righteous" indignation in Arizona about how unfairly the film stereotyped the state. The real problem with that was that the film depicted the culture [[or, more precisely, the lack thereof) so accurately.

Sometimes the best reaction to criticism is to STFU and humbly consider reform.

But the fundamental problem remains: How can we protect these kids?

Well there you go. How do you protect kids from parents who love them so much that they hand their 60 pound, 9 yr old daughters Uzis to learn to be responsible. It's not that far removed from the sad apprenticeship of the child soldier in many poor fucked countries of the world.

It reminds me of the old adage: "I needed a friend like him like I needed a hole in the head."

[Gpwrangler]

Well there you go. How do you protect kids from parents who love them so much that they hand their 60 pound, 9 yr old daughters Uzis to learn to be responsible. It's not that far removed from the sad apprenticeship of the child soldier in many poor fucked countries of the world.

A range is not at all like the other situation you mention. This was a trained instructor and it was a terrible accident. Since we weren't there we can't understand everything that happened. Blaming scissors, guns and cars for every tragedy and raising kids in a bubble is not the answer. Neither is taking away all the guns, scissors and cars.

I know some teenagers who are so sheltered that they are not allowed to cut the lawn because lawn mowers are dangerous. I shudder to think of them driving a car.

[canuck]

A range is not at all like the other situation you mention. This was a trained instructor and it was a terrible accident. Since we weren't there we can't understand everything that happened. Blaming scissors, guns and cars for every tragedy and raising kids in a bubble is not the answer. Neither is taking away all the guns, scissors and cars.

I know some teenagers who are so sheltered that they are not allowed to cut the lawn because lawn mowers are dangerous. I shudder to think of them driving a car.

Yes, I get the point about scissors and cars and mowers. I just can't relate these with a machine gun. I think the business of getting little kids "interested in guns" has more to do.with building a budding consumer base than protecting life and property.

[aoife]

Stories are not related.

The related thread between them is that both children have shitheads for parents.

[canuck]

The related thread between them is that both children have shitheads for parents.

Thank you for stating something simple in a poetic way.

[Gpwrangler]

Thank you for stating something simple in a poetic way.

Taking a kid to the range doesn't make you a shithead. It was an accident.

[Johnnny5]

Taking a kid to the range doesn't make you a shithead. It was an accident.

I don't really blame the parents as they were probably relying on the "experts" telling them it was safe. I put the blame squarely on the business and instructor that allowed or encouraged someone so young and with so little physical strength to fire a lightweight, short barreled fully automatic weapon. In the hands of someone with no experience guns like that are notorious for doing exactly what happened in the video. To disregard the safety of everyone there just to make a few bucks it beyond irresponsible.

[Zacha341]

Nearly zero barrel length at minimal she would have shot up the ceiling [[well sky in this case). He did not have a chance to survive once the momentum started. This particular training with that kind of weapon, with a child that young was not a good idea. More like a stunt -- that went horribly wrong!

[Zacha341]

Agreed. There are variables to consider. I know of families whom all learned long arms in their teens as part of farm and rural lifestyle of the south. But they were not 9 and 10. And not using autos... She was too young in my opinion. And that kind of gun as a first try out? I've heard of teens with shot guns and rifles learning skeet, paint ball competitions start early with supervision -- but an Uzi?

Taking a kid to the range doesn't make you a shithead. It was an accident.

[Inkadinkado]

Back to the OP.... the killer killed a younger child because...? A truly innocent boy lost his life for nothing. Sorry, but zero sympathy for one kills another. General population for him. Gettin' whoppins or whatever makes the deceased no less dead and so the piper must be paid.

[canuck]

Back to the OP.... the killer killed a younger child because...? A truly innocent boy lost his life for nothing. Sorry, but zero sympathy for one kills another. General population for him. Gettin' whoppins or whatever makes the deceased no less dead and so the piper must be paid.

So. Did you not get that this twelve year old killer was also a victim? You would have him punished way beyond the law to satisfy a vengefulness that just creates another universe of pain?

I would suggest to you that it may indeed be too late for this kid to be "saved". But to think that this kid needs to get another pile of shit and abuse thrown at him is a bit like saying your Jesus needs to be crucified another time to wash your sins.

[Inkadinkado]

So. Did you not get that this twelve year old killer was also a victim? You would have him punished way beyond the law to satisfy a vengefulness that just creates another universe of pain?

I would suggest to you that it may indeed be too late for this kid to be "saved". But to think that this kid needs to get another pile of shit and abuse thrown at him is a bit like saying your Jesus needs to be crucified another time to wash your sins.

Gosh, I hadn't thought of it that way. Youre correct. So I'm changing my opinion: I am so glad that the younger boy was killed because now the older one can get help.

[canuck]

Gosh, I hadn't thought of it that way. Youre correct. So I'm changing my opinion: I am so glad that the younger boy was killed because now the older one can get help.

Yes. I'm glad you got what I meant. The plan was to have the little one killed so that we could redeem the twelve year old's sins, that is exactly what I meant.

[aoife]

Taking a kid to the range doesn't make you a shithead. It was an accident.

No, taking your kid to a shooting range does not make you a shithead. Allowing them to try out an Uzi is what does it. Those weapons are hard enough for adults to control. I would suggest that CPS get involved, but seeing how they spectacularly failed the 12-year old boy, and in turn his victim, maybe some other parenting organization can help these two figure things out.

[Jimaz]

The 9-year-old-Uzi-killing tragedy in Arizona exposes how the NRA has been exploiting their supporters to an insane extreme — and how vulnerable their members are to being manipulated toward political ends.

Overreach is when passion has been stirred beyond any productive goal. It's the point at which passion becomes destructive and therefore politically counterproductive.

It's long past time to convert this cynical passion-to-destroy into an optimistic passion-to-construct.

[Gpwrangler]

The 9-year-old-Uzi-killing tragedy in Arizona exposes how the NRA has been exploiting their supporters to an insane extreme — and how vulnerable their members are to being manipulated toward political ends.

Overreach is when passion has been stirred beyond any productive goal. It's the point at which passion becomes destructive and therefore politically counterproductive.

It's long past time to convert this cynical passion-to-destroy into an optimistic passion-to-construct.

You lost me. I get that you don't like the NRA. Don't join.

[Zacha341]

The girls parents were irresponsible as well to have her part of that politic, relative to a film vid of a young child shooting an Uzi AS TOURIST ATTRACTION!!

[Jimaz]

The 9-year-old-Uzi-killing tragedy in Arizona exposes how the NRA has been exploiting their supporters to an insane extreme — and how vulnerable their members are to being manipulated toward political ends.

Overreach is when passion has been stirred beyond any productive goal. It's the point at which passion becomes destructive and therefore politically counterproductive.

It's long past time to convert this cynical passion-to-destroy into an optimistic passion-to-construct.

You lost me. I get that you don't like the NRA. Don't join.

You made my point. You're lost.

Save yourself before you're swallowed. Revoke your NRA membership. Save your 9-year-old daughter if you even ever cared about her.

[Johnnny5]

The 9-year-old-Uzi-killing tragedy in Arizona exposes how the NRA has been exploiting their supporters to an insane extreme — and how vulnerable their members are to being manipulated toward political ends.

Overreach is when passion has been stirred beyond any productive goal. It's the point at which passion becomes destructive and therefore politically counterproductive.

It's long past time to convert this cynical passion-to-destroy into an optimistic passion-to-construct.

Jimaz, sorry to destroy your fairytale version of the NRA and NRA members, but most of us are just as disgusted with this preventable tragedy as everyone else [[Probably even more so). I frequent a number of forums related to firearms and shooting and the vast majority of posters there are dumbfounded as to why this instructor was allowing someone so young fire such a firearm.

[old guy]

Sorry Dan, this is getting a bit off topic from your thread. But a nine year old girl shooting an Uzi? Even if it made sense that this was a training session, which it wouldn't, this wasn't a standard gun range.
"WHITE HILLS, Ariz. — The four-hour tours offered by one of the big gun ranges here are a popular tourist attraction. Starting at $200 a person, a bus will pick up visitors at their hotel in Las Vegas, 25 miles to the north, show them Hoover Dam and bring them to a recreational shooting range called Last Stop, where they can fire the weapons of their dreams: automatic machine guns, sniper rifles, grenade launchers. A hamburger lunch is included; a helicopter tour of the nearby Grand Canyon is optional."
This was more like an amusement situation where people go to have some sort of fun experience. This is a sad commentary on what we as a society consider what children's needs to function in a rational society are. Even if there hadn't been an accident, what would the rationale of the event have been?