I don't know what to think...

[Dan Wesson]

Here is a story about a tragedy that occurred on the west side of our great state. This is also a story about thousands upon thousands of Detroiters. Not only Detroiters but it is occurring everywhere in our great nation. Read it. You can't deny it. It ain't no lie.

Is there a solution? Can Detroit rise from the ashes and raise the standard of living for everyone?

I mean it can't go on like this forever, can it?

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi...uspect_bo.html

[Bobl]

No solution, in this case. It is too late. An incredibly sad story.

[canuck]

Awful. This is an event where the perpetrator was as much a victim as his victim.

As an aside, I also read about the 9 year old girl in Arizona who shot a firing range instructor because in automatic mode, the Uzi she was trying out kicked off and shot the guy in the head. I am not putting these two events on an equal footing but the idea that a 9 yr old kid should be firing a machine gun gets my seal of disapproval.

[Gpwrangler]

Awful. This is an event where the perpetrator was as much a victim as his victim.

As an aside, I also read about the 9 year old girl in Arizona who shot a firing range instructor because in automatic mode, the Uzi she was trying out kicked off and shot the guy in the head. I am not putting these two events on an equal footing but the idea that a 9 yr old kid should be firing a machine gun gets my seal of disapproval.

Stories are not related.

[aoife]

Stories are not related.

The related thread between them is that both children have shitheads for parents.

[canuck]

The related thread between them is that both children have shitheads for parents.

Thank you for stating something simple in a poetic way.

[Gpwrangler]

Thank you for stating something simple in a poetic way.

Taking a kid to the range doesn't make you a shithead. It was an accident.

[Jimaz]

... As an aside, I also read about the 9 year old girl in Arizona who shot a firing range instructor because in automatic mode, the Uzi she was trying out kicked off and shot the guy in the head. I am not putting these two events on an equal footing but the idea that a 9 yr old kid should be firing a machine gun gets my seal of disapproval.

When Raising Arizona was released there was an uproar of "righteous" indignation in Arizona about how unfairly the film stereotyped the state. The real problem with that was that the film depicted the culture [[or, more precisely, the lack thereof) so accurately.

Sometimes the best reaction to criticism is to STFU and humbly consider reform. Arizona finds it difficult to master that principle.

But the fundamental problem remains: How can we protect these kids?

[canuck]

When Raising Arizona was released there was an uproar of "righteous" indignation in Arizona about how unfairly the film stereotyped the state. The real problem with that was that the film depicted the culture [[or, more precisely, the lack thereof) so accurately.

Sometimes the best reaction to criticism is to STFU and humbly consider reform.

But the fundamental problem remains: How can we protect these kids?

Well there you go. How do you protect kids from parents who love them so much that they hand their 60 pound, 9 yr old daughters Uzis to learn to be responsible. It's not that far removed from the sad apprenticeship of the child soldier in many poor fucked countries of the world.

It reminds me of the old adage: "I needed a friend like him like I needed a hole in the head."

[Gpwrangler]

Well there you go. How do you protect kids from parents who love them so much that they hand their 60 pound, 9 yr old daughters Uzis to learn to be responsible. It's not that far removed from the sad apprenticeship of the child soldier in many poor fucked countries of the world.

A range is not at all like the other situation you mention. This was a trained instructor and it was a terrible accident. Since we weren't there we can't understand everything that happened. Blaming scissors, guns and cars for every tragedy and raising kids in a bubble is not the answer. Neither is taking away all the guns, scissors and cars.

I know some teenagers who are so sheltered that they are not allowed to cut the lawn because lawn mowers are dangerous. I shudder to think of them driving a car.

[canuck]

A range is not at all like the other situation you mention. This was a trained instructor and it was a terrible accident. Since we weren't there we can't understand everything that happened. Blaming scissors, guns and cars for every tragedy and raising kids in a bubble is not the answer. Neither is taking away all the guns, scissors and cars.

I know some teenagers who are so sheltered that they are not allowed to cut the lawn because lawn mowers are dangerous. I shudder to think of them driving a car.

Yes, I get the point about scissors and cars and mowers. I just can't relate these with a machine gun. I think the business of getting little kids "interested in guns" has more to do.with building a budding consumer base than protecting life and property.

[Inkadinkado]

Back to the OP.... the killer killed a younger child because...? A truly innocent boy lost his life for nothing. Sorry, but zero sympathy for one kills another. General population for him. Gettin' whoppins or whatever makes the deceased no less dead and so the piper must be paid.

[canuck]

Back to the OP.... the killer killed a younger child because...? A truly innocent boy lost his life for nothing. Sorry, but zero sympathy for one kills another. General population for him. Gettin' whoppins or whatever makes the deceased no less dead and so the piper must be paid.

So. Did you not get that this twelve year old killer was also a victim? You would have him punished way beyond the law to satisfy a vengefulness that just creates another universe of pain?

I would suggest to you that it may indeed be too late for this kid to be "saved". But to think that this kid needs to get another pile of shit and abuse thrown at him is a bit like saying your Jesus needs to be crucified another time to wash your sins.

[Inkadinkado]

So. Did you not get that this twelve year old killer was also a victim? You would have him punished way beyond the law to satisfy a vengefulness that just creates another universe of pain?

I would suggest to you that it may indeed be too late for this kid to be "saved". But to think that this kid needs to get another pile of shit and abuse thrown at him is a bit like saying your Jesus needs to be crucified another time to wash your sins.

Gosh, I hadn't thought of it that way. Youre correct. So I'm changing my opinion: I am so glad that the younger boy was killed because now the older one can get help.

[canuck]

Gosh, I hadn't thought of it that way. Youre correct. So I'm changing my opinion: I am so glad that the younger boy was killed because now the older one can get help.

Yes. I'm glad you got what I meant. The plan was to have the little one killed so that we could redeem the twelve year old's sins, that is exactly what I meant.

[Jimaz]

The 9-year-old-Uzi-killing tragedy in Arizona exposes how the NRA has been exploiting their supporters to an insane extreme — and how vulnerable their members are to being manipulated toward political ends.

Overreach is when passion has been stirred beyond any productive goal. It's the point at which passion becomes destructive and therefore politically counterproductive.

It's long past time to convert this cynical passion-to-destroy into an optimistic passion-to-construct.

[Gpwrangler]

The 9-year-old-Uzi-killing tragedy in Arizona exposes how the NRA has been exploiting their supporters to an insane extreme — and how vulnerable their members are to being manipulated toward political ends.

Overreach is when passion has been stirred beyond any productive goal. It's the point at which passion becomes destructive and therefore politically counterproductive.

It's long past time to convert this cynical passion-to-destroy into an optimistic passion-to-construct.

You lost me. I get that you don't like the NRA. Don't join.

[Jimaz]

The 9-year-old-Uzi-killing tragedy in Arizona exposes how the NRA has been exploiting their supporters to an insane extreme — and how vulnerable their members are to being manipulated toward political ends.

Overreach is when passion has been stirred beyond any productive goal. It's the point at which passion becomes destructive and therefore politically counterproductive.

It's long past time to convert this cynical passion-to-destroy into an optimistic passion-to-construct.

You lost me. I get that you don't like the NRA. Don't join.

You made my point. You're lost.

Save yourself before you're swallowed. Revoke your NRA membership. Save your 9-year-old daughter if you even ever cared about her.

[Gpwrangler]

You made my point. You're lost.

Save yourself before you're swallowed. Revoke your NRA membership. Save your 9-year-old daughter if you even ever cared about her.

Like I said, don't like it don't join. Don't like living under the Constitution there are alternatives to that too.

[Johnnny5]

The 9-year-old-Uzi-killing tragedy in Arizona exposes how the NRA has been exploiting their supporters to an insane extreme — and how vulnerable their members are to being manipulated toward political ends.

Overreach is when passion has been stirred beyond any productive goal. It's the point at which passion becomes destructive and therefore politically counterproductive.

It's long past time to convert this cynical passion-to-destroy into an optimistic passion-to-construct.

Jimaz, sorry to destroy your fairytale version of the NRA and NRA members, but most of us are just as disgusted with this preventable tragedy as everyone else [[Probably even more so). I frequent a number of forums related to firearms and shooting and the vast majority of posters there are dumbfounded as to why this instructor was allowing someone so young fire such a firearm.

[Jimaz]

... the vast majority of posters there are dumbfounded....

I couldn't have said it better myself.

You all need to about-face your "fairytale" stance for your own sake.

[Zacha341]

The girls parents were irresponsible as well to have her part of that politic, relative to a film vid of a young child shooting an Uzi AS TOURIST ATTRACTION!!

[old guy]

Sorry Dan, this is getting a bit off topic from your thread. But a nine year old girl shooting an Uzi? Even if it made sense that this was a training session, which it wouldn't, this wasn't a standard gun range.
"WHITE HILLS, Ariz. — The four-hour tours offered by one of the big gun ranges here are a popular tourist attraction. Starting at $200 a person, a bus will pick up visitors at their hotel in Las Vegas, 25 miles to the north, show them Hoover Dam and bring them to a recreational shooting range called Last Stop, where they can fire the weapons of their dreams: automatic machine guns, sniper rifles, grenade launchers. A hamburger lunch is included; a helicopter tour of the nearby Grand Canyon is optional."
This was more like an amusement situation where people go to have some sort of fun experience. This is a sad commentary on what we as a society consider what children's needs to function in a rational society are. Even if there hadn't been an accident, what would the rationale of the event have been?

[canuck]

Just found this in the Freep:
http://m.freep.com/opinion/article?a...9020138&f=1237


Leonard Pitts Jr.: An Uzi, a 9-year-old and American exceptionalism
By Leonard Pitts Jr. The Miami Herald
September 2, 2014

Firing-range instructor Charles Vacca shows a 9-year old girl how to use an Uzi. Vacca, 39, was standing next to the girl last month at the Last Stop range in Arizona, when the girl squeezed the trigger, causing the Uzi to recoil upward and shoot Vacca in the head.
Firing-range instructor Charles Vacca shows a 9-year old girl how to use an Uzi. Vacca, 39, was standing next to the girl last month at the Last Stop range in Arizona, when the girl squeezed the trigger, causing the Uzi to recoil upward and shoot Vacca in the head. - Mohave County Sheriff Department via Associated Pr

Sometimes you read a sentence and you think to yourself: only here, only us.

Here's one such sentence: "A 9-year-old girl from New Jersey accidentally shot and killed her instructor with an Uzi submachine gun while he stood to her left side, trying to guide her."

That's from a New York Times account of the death of 39-year-old Charles Vacca, who worked for the Last Stop shooting range in White Hills, Ariz. He died Aug. 25, when the little girl he was training lost control of the Uzi. Apparently, the gun was in "repeat fire" mode, the recoil lifted the muzzle, the little girl couldn't master it, and Vacca was struck in the head.

The child and her family, who have not been identified, were vacationing last week in nearby Las Vegas and had signed up for a package deal offered by the gun range. It included a tour of Hoover Dam, a hamburger lunch, an optional helicopter flight over the Grand Canyon and the chance to fire a range of powerful weapons, including sniper rifles, grenade launchers and machine guns. Everything was going fine until, as the Times put it, the "adventure went horribly wrong."

For the record, some of us would argue that "horribly wrong" began, not when the child lost control of the gun, but when "adults" first placed this powerful piece of military hardware into her tiny hands. That act raises questions that are as blunt and indecorous as they are necessary and unavoidable:

What kind of shooting range allows a prepubescent girl to fire an Uzi? What kind of instructor does not guard against recoil when a child is handling such a powerful weapon? What kind of parents think it's a good idea to put a submachine gun in their 9-year-old's hands? And what kind of idiot country does not prohibit such things by law?

It is the last question that should most concern us. There's not much you can do about individual lack of judgment. Some people will always be idiots. Some companies will always be idiots. But a country and its laws should be an expression of a people's collective wisdom. So for a country to be idiotic says something sweeping about national character.

And where gun laws are concerned, the United States of America is -- individual dissenting voices duly noted and exempted from the following descriptive -- dumber than a bag of bullets. This, after all, is the country where you can take a gun into a bar. Where you can erect a shooting range in your own backyard. Where a blind person can get a gun permit. You think it's insane that Arizona allows a 9-year-old to shoot at a firing range? ABC News reports that one in Texas allows them to do so at age 6.

Six.

God bless America. We legislate against sharia law in places where there are no Muslims, much less an inclination toward sharia. We pass laws to curtail election fraud despite the fact that election fraud, as a practical matter, does not exist. Yet we endure a yearly toll of gun carnage that makes civilized people in civilized places shake their heads in wonder -- and our only action is inaction.

We should mourn for this little girl, who will have to live the rest of her life with the memory of what she inadvertently did. But let us also mourn for a country where what she did now barely qualifies as news.

We speak often and with pride of America's exceptionalism -- by which we mean our rights, our freedoms, our values. And they are, make no mistake, among the finest in the world.

But there are days when the bullets fly and the blood flows and no one can give you a good reason why this had to happen, and it occurs to you that we are also exceptional in the sheer, stubborn stupidity of which we are all too often capable. Last week brought another such day. A man was killed by a 9-year-old wielding a submachine gun.

Only here, only us.

Leonard Pitts Jr. is a columnist for the Miami Herald. Contact him at lpitts@miamiherald.com.

[Gpwrangler]

Just found this in the Freep:
http://m.freep.com/opinion/article?a...9020138&f=1237


Leonard Pitts Jr.: An Uzi, a 9-year-old and American exceptionalism
By Leonard Pitts Jr. The Miami Herald
September 2, 2014

Firing-range instructor Charles Vacca shows a 9-year old girl how to use an Uzi. Vacca, 39, was standing next to the girl last month at the Last Stop range in Arizona, when the girl squeezed the trigger, causing the Uzi to recoil upward and shoot Vacca in the head.
Firing-range instructor Charles Vacca shows a 9-year old girl how to use an Uzi. Vacca, 39, was standing next to the girl last month at the Last Stop range in Arizona, when the girl squeezed the trigger, causing the Uzi to recoil upward and shoot Vacca in the head. - Mohave County Sheriff Department via Associated Pr

Sometimes you read a sentence and you think to yourself: only here, only us.

Here's one such sentence: "A 9-year-old girl from New Jersey accidentally shot and killed her instructor with an Uzi submachine gun while he stood to her left side, trying to guide her."

That's from a New York Times account of the death of 39-year-old Charles Vacca, who worked for the Last Stop shooting range in White Hills, Ariz. He died Aug. 25, when the little girl he was training lost control of the Uzi. Apparently, the gun was in "repeat fire" mode, the recoil lifted the muzzle, the little girl couldn't master it, and Vacca was struck in the head.

The child and her family, who have not been identified, were vacationing last week in nearby Las Vegas and had signed up for a package deal offered by the gun range. It included a tour of Hoover Dam, a hamburger lunch, an optional helicopter flight over the Grand Canyon and the chance to fire a range of powerful weapons, including sniper rifles, grenade launchers and machine guns. Everything was going fine until, as the Times put it, the "adventure went horribly wrong."

For the record, some of us would argue that "horribly wrong" began, not when the child lost control of the gun, but when "adults" first placed this powerful piece of military hardware into her tiny hands. That act raises questions that are as blunt and indecorous as they are necessary and unavoidable:

What kind of shooting range allows a prepubescent girl to fire an Uzi? What kind of instructor does not guard against recoil when a child is handling such a powerful weapon? What kind of parents think it's a good idea to put a submachine gun in their 9-year-old's hands? And what kind of idiot country does not prohibit such things by law?

It is the last question that should most concern us. There's not much you can do about individual lack of judgment. Some people will always be idiots. Some companies will always be idiots. But a country and its laws should be an expression of a people's collective wisdom. So for a country to be idiotic says something sweeping about national character.

And where gun laws are concerned, the United States of America is -- individual dissenting voices duly noted and exempted from the following descriptive -- dumber than a bag of bullets. This, after all, is the country where you can take a gun into a bar. Where you can erect a shooting range in your own backyard. Where a blind person can get a gun permit. You think it's insane that Arizona allows a 9-year-old to shoot at a firing range? ABC News reports that one in Texas allows them to do so at age 6.

Six.

God bless America. We legislate against sharia law in places where there are no Muslims, much less an inclination toward sharia. We pass laws to curtail election fraud despite the fact that election fraud, as a practical matter, does not exist. Yet we endure a yearly toll of gun carnage that makes civilized people in civilized places shake their heads in wonder -- and our only action is inaction.

We should mourn for this little girl, who will have to live the rest of her life with the memory of what she inadvertently did. But let us also mourn for a country where what she did now barely qualifies as news.

We speak often and with pride of America's exceptionalism -- by which we mean our rights, our freedoms, our values. And they are, make no mistake, among the finest in the world.

But there are days when the bullets fly and the blood flows and no one can give you a good reason why this had to happen, and it occurs to you that we are also exceptional in the sheer, stubborn stupidity of which we are all too often capable. Last week brought another such day. A man was killed by a 9-year-old wielding a submachine gun.

Only here, only us.

Leonard Pitts Jr. is a columnist for the Miami Herald. Contact him at lpitts@miamiherald.com.

So when is the author leaving the country?