Your Water will be shut off!!

[corktownyuppie]

did it occur to you that maybe their pipes are faulty and need repairs and that's why the water bill is high?

In fact, it did.

Those who truly can't [[and that means truly, truly), I think we should help.

[Scottathew]

did it occur to you that maybe their pipes are faulty and need repairs and that's why the water bill is high?

The water meter is at the house. Anything beyond the on\off switch is the responsibility of the homeowner to fix.

It's one of the realities of home ownership, you must fix these things. If your pipes are faulty and your wasting tons of water, you're going to pay for tons of water.

The extra money you're spending on water is an incentive to not waste it.

[corktownyuppie]

But you can't do that when you two sides unable to speak or think outside of their own tiny bubble.

Unfortunately, you are right. My solution for now is to just ignore those people. I think that the public discourse gives disproportionate attention to the extremist view on both sides.

[Inkadinkado]

Well the only solution is for them to pay or help them find the resources to pay [[charity, employment, etc).

But what I hate is seeing people berate them for being poor and "lazy". Propagating the Reagan-myth of welfare queens with Cadillacs and IPhones. I work in a heavily white office and one time I almost chewed out a VP for saying those things about this situation. Some people see black people with IPhones and don't give them any benefit of the doubt that they actually have the means and assume they're welfare suckers with nice gadgets.

"Black people with iPhones" who are not paying their water bills or "black people with iPhones" in general?

Anyone with nice things but with unpaid bills is a parasite, regardless of color. Being heavily leveraged but still meeting obligations may mean that one is an overspending fool, but a parasite they're not.

[Scottathew]

I don't agree with all the bashing of the poor in Detroit. I have family members who are just barely holding on. Wages in Detroit are not on par with some of the other cities. Give the people a break. If you don't have money you don't have money. What will happen? They will abandon their homes and move in with relatives, that's what will happen.

I haven't seen any "poor bashing" in this thread. Just people pointing out the reality that:

A) It costs a lot of money to deliver water to your house
B) If there are no consequences to not paying, people will stop
C) DWSD has a very generous repayment program requiring 10% down and then spreading the remainder throughout a 24-month period
D) There are charity fund setup for the truly needy

But people still want to be upset and can't face the facts that this stuff needs to be paid for. Any other utility or service gets cut off. Don't pay your rent? Evicted. Don't pay your electric? Shut off. Don't pay your Netflix? Streaming stops. Don't pay for clothes? Shoplifting arrest. Don't pay for cell phone? Service is cut-off. Don't pay for Internet? Google stops working.

Don't pay for water? It gets shut off.

This isn't unprecedented, in fact, it's the norm. It's not cruel either, because you've got option if you're behind in payments.

[Detroitnerd]

You've proposed no solution. Your solution is FREE WATER! YAY!!!


DWSD has a very fair repayment program: http://www.dwsd.org/downloads_n/anno..._PlanFlyer.pdf


Propose how we're going to deliver water to folks without paying for it? How do we get the workers to work for free? The contractors to do work for free? Obtain the needed materials for free? Build out, replace, and maintain infrastructure for free?


DetroitNerd, other than blaming the man, what's your solution?

Hey, pal, the system breaks down. You do realize that, don't you? This ain't 1943, yes? There aren't enough jobs to go around for everybody, right? So some people are going to be the losers in this society. It's set up that way.

There's this thing called "civilization" -- and we judge how well it works by how well it takes care of its losers.

So, yes, some people are going to get free water. And our society has to be set up to ensure that they get it. Because if people don't have water, we're going to have all these expensive health issues to pay for, so, in the end, it's cheaper to give people the fucking free water than it is to pay for the ensuing outbreak of disease because you stood on principle that people have to pay their bills.

There's more than enough money to do it. Wall Street is booming. Corporate America is raking in record profits. AND THEY'RE FUCKING CRIMINALS and EVERYBODY KNOWS IT. But they don't go to jail. They get given FREE MONEY. For unimportant shit like MORE GAMBLING.

So, what you do is you tax the rich and take care of the poor. Is that fucking crazy these days?

Whatever. Go ahead and dismiss it as socialism if you want. Go ahead and talk about the glories of the free market if you like.

I'm just going to enjoy it when the water system gets privatized and all you fuckers are bitching and moaning about how you can't pay your exorbitant water bills and are then asking the motherfucking federal government for relief!

[DROPS MIC]

[corktownyuppie]

There's this thing called "civilization" -- and we judge how well it works by how well it takes care of its losers.
[DROPS MIC]

[PICKS UP MIC]

That may be how you judge civilization...

BTW, I agree that we should be picking up the tab on the people who really need it. We just probably differ on the criteria on which that would be defined.

[Jerry Van]

If you don't have money you don't have money. What will happen? They will abandon their homes and move in with relatives, that's what will happen.

O.K. then, problem solved.

[Detroitnerd]

[PICKS UP MIC]

That may be how you judge civilization...

BTW, I agree that we should be picking up the tab on the people who really need it. We just probably differ on the criteria on which that would be defined.

It just gets frustrating to talk with people who are trying to impose morality on the poor when that morality should be imposed on the larger society.

I get it. You think it can't happen to you. You think because you work hard and make good decisions, you're morally superior to people who are poor. It's a normal and natural thing that happens. But that isn't necessarily true. Good people become poor every day, through no major failings of their own. Sure, some foibles might send you deeper down the path, but we all have those. Just some of us can afford it better. It can be an injury, a divorce, an accident, depression, all sorts of factors. And then, one day, you just can't make it. That's how it happens. And where are the jobs that help you pay bills with and ever-rising cost of living? Nowhere. So then, one day, you're just really, really poor and have other people getting all self-righteous on you about "picking up your tab."

I hope it never happens for you good people. But if it were possible for you to experience it for just one day, to see that it's real, it might go a long way to end all this chest-thumping about paying bills.

[corktownyuppie]

It just gets frustrating to talk with people who are trying to impose morality on the poor when that morality should be imposed on the larger society.

I get it. You think it can't happen to you. You think because you work hard and make good decisions, you're morally superior to people who are poor. It's a normal and natural thing that happens. But that isn't necessarily true. Good people become poor every day, through no major failings of their own. Sure, some foibles might send you deeper down the path, but we all have those. Just some of us can afford it better. It can be an injury, a divorce, an accident, depression, all sorts of factors. And then, one day, you just can't make it. That's how it happens. And where are the jobs that help you pay bills with and ever-rising cost of living? Nowhere. So then, one day, you're just really, really poor and have other people getting all self-righteous on you about "picking up your tab."

I hope it never happens for you good people. But if it were possible for you to experience it for just one day, to see that it's real, it might go a long way to end all this chest-thumping about paying bills.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I said I'm totally fine helping pick up the tab for the people who really need help. I'm also not at all ok with picking up the tab for the people who don't need the help.

To me, at least, that seems logical. No righteousness or imposed reality along with it. That's the extraneous bullsh** that keeps distracting us from trying to find reasonable solutions to difficult problems.

[Detroitnerd]

Well, maybe I'm not talking to you, CTY. Anyway, you're not going to find any solutions in the free-market fundamentalism toolbox, so I'm not looking there for answers.

[Scottathew]

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I said I'm totally fine helping pick up the tab for the people who really need help. I'm also not at all ok with picking up the tab for the people who don't need the help.

To me, at least, that seems logical. No righteousness or imposed reality along with it. That's the extraneous bullsh** that keeps distracting us from trying to find reasonable solutions to difficult problems.

S/He's probably more referring to me.

The issue is that s\he's making the assumption that only the needy won't pay their bill.

I have no idea what the numbers are, as it would take a huge analysis of the personal finances of non-paying customers, but what we can look at how many people come up with the money once they're shut off, or threatened to be shut-off. I'm unable to find those numbers online, but they do exist somewhere with DWSD and would be a good indicator of how many non-paying customers had the money, but just refused\forgot to pay until the water was shut off.

DetroitNerd wants to ignore all the help that is in place for people who can't pay their water bills, and blame society for not helping [[even though it is), wants to ignore very fair payment programs [[because it doesn't fit his\her narrative that poor people are being left out to dry), and wants to completely ignore the charity funds to help out the truly needed [[because it would cause these people to have to take action to help themselves).

It doesn't fit the narrative that s\he wants to push that anyone who advocates for personal responsibility must hate poor people, and that only poor people would not pay there water bill, absolutely no chance of abuse here!

[corktownyuppie]

Well, maybe I'm not talking to you, CTY. Anyway, you're not going to find any solutions in the free-market fundamentalism toolbox, so I'm not looking there for answers.

Well just to snuff out any "you're so vain, you proably think this post is about you" notions, I only responded to you because you quoted me in your reply.

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie
[PICKS UP MIC]

That may be how you judge civilization...

BTW, I agree that we should be picking up the tab on the people who really need it. We just probably differ on the criteria on which that would be defined.

It just gets frustrating to talk with people who are trying to impose morality on the poor when that morality should be imposed on the larger society.

I get it. You think it can't happen to you. You think because you work hard and make good decisions, you're morally superior to people who are poor. It's a normal and natural thing that happens. But that isn't necessarily true. Good people become poor every day, through no major failings of their own. Sure, some foibles might send you deeper down the path, but we all have those. Just some of us can afford it better. It can be an injury, a divorce, an accident, depression, all sorts of factors. And then, one day, you just can't make it. That's how it happens. And where are the jobs that help you pay bills with and ever-rising cost of living? Nowhere. So then, one day, you're just really, really poor and have other people getting all self-righteous on you about "picking up your tab."

I hope it never happens for you good people. But if it were possible for you to experience it for just one day, to see that it's real, it might go a long way to end all this chest-thumping about paying bills.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

"A total of 157 businesses were shut off in recent months for nonpayment, Garner said. But all 157 have had their water turned back on after making payments.
Another 919 businesses avoided the shut-offs by paying their overdue bills or going on a payment plan."


From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz3BWarPAY2

Contrary to what some have claimed, its not just "po folks" that the city is going after. And its nice to see these businesses making things right.

[Detroitnerd]

Well just to snuff out any "you're so vain, you proably think this post is about you" notions, I only responded to you because you quoted me in your reply.

Rather sloppy on my part, I agree it could be very easily misunderstood. The "you" I'm addressing is the general reader, not you CTY. I regret the implication.

[Scottathew]

Rather sloppy on my part, I agree it could be very easily misunderstood. The "you" I'm addressing is the general reader, not you CTY. I regret the implication.

Darn it, I was hoping that I was the "you".

[Detroitnerd]

Darn it, I was hoping that I was the "you".

Every so often, 48307, you make me smile.

[Wheels]

It's amazing how many people in line to pay their water bill were talking on a cell phone! Oh that's right, the government will pay that bill too.

[Dumpling]

In the late nineties automotive employment in the metro Detroit area
was relatively high compared to what it is now. This enabled the City of
Detroit to be in the black as far as revenue was concerned; likewise the
State of Michigan was in the black and able to do revenue sharing with
local governments. A higher proportion of Warrendale, Detroit residents
were employed by Ford Motor company and related firms, keeping the
average home value there in the 50K to 120K range [[though there were
very occasional infamous dollar homes in the area which have no doubt
been demolished by now).
After the Ford layoffs of thousands [[with sincere regret from the highest
management about the impact of that situation) many of the residents
could no longer afford to stay in their homes. Eventually Warren Evans
ceased and desisted from evicting people from their homes.
People that remained there [[or moved in) after the great layoffs were buying
gasoline in two dollar increments at the height of the recession in 2009. For
Thanksgiving at Fairline Supermarket on Warren, a shopping cart filled with
packages of turkey drumsticks was rolled over next to the meat counter and
people were buying such a package rather than a whole turkey for their
Thanksgiving dinners.

[Dumpling]

So given that these kinds of economic conditions can occur in Detroit,
and given things like that auto insurers like to tack on a "poor credit"
premium [[which has IMHO little to do with driving responsibly), and other
service providers are not much more user friendly, it is would be well to have
the best affordability conditions possible for payment of water bills.
I'm okay with there being a mini credit union sitting in your water bill.
I'm okay with a "relative economic condition utility credit" from Uncle
Sam that would be like the TARP bailout that would decrease utility
bills during a recession. The nation's water departments did in fact
get bailed out to some extent during the last recession. This bailout
money didn't show up as end user credits though. End users that
couldn't pay got late fees instead.

[Mark Smiles]

You're asking the wrong questions. The fact is, the people who are getting fucked over hard are the most vulnerable. And you're supposed to clap and cheer and get in line with anything the powers that be propose as a solution. And then the "solution" will be enacted.

And then … you're next, pal.

Seems to me if they were getting such a raw deal, they would not have been given such lenient terms in the past, so much for gratitude I suppose,

[FlyOnTheWall]

Well, maybe I'm not talking to you, CTY. Anyway, you're not going to find any solutions in the free-market fundamentalism toolbox, so I'm not looking there for answers.

Maybe that is just the place that you should look. A lot of good answers there.

[sumas]

It just gets frustrating to talk with people who are trying to impose morality on the poor when that morality should be imposed on the larger society.

I get it. You think it can't happen to you. You think because you work hard and make good decisions, you're morally superior to people who are poor. It's a normal and natural thing that happens. But that isn't necessarily true. Good people become poor every day, through no major failings of their own. Sure, some foibles might send you deeper down the path, but we all have those. Just some of us can afford it better. It can be an injury, a divorce, an accident, depression, all sorts of factors. And then, one day, you just can't make it. That's how it happens. And where are the jobs that help you pay bills with and ever-rising cost of living? Nowhere. So then, one day, you're just really, really poor and have other people getting all self-righteous on you about "picking up your tab."

I hope it never happens for you good people. But if it were possible for you to experience it for just one day, to see that it's real, it might go a long way to end all this chest-thumping about paying bills.

You almost made me cry with your sensitive analysis of the culture of poverty. The minor amount of welfare fraud is a drop in the bucket to corporate fraud and political fraud regarding our economy. I am saddened that so many showed up to pay that 10% down plan... so many can't make that next step... that next bill. The myth of welfare folk living high on the hog is sooooo unreal. The lack of sympathy for people in need leaves me blank.

I have no issues evoking God or a higher power. "There but for the grace of God go I".

There are "networks" to help assist but even the workers are clueless as to the strange rules. It is a rare person that really gets extraordinary help with extraordinary need.

[Jimaz]

...The minor amount of welfare fraud is a drop in the bucket to corporate fraud....

The key question here is which of these groups hires the greater number of lobbyists to work on their behalf?

[ABetterDetroit]

You almost made me cry with your sensitive analysis of the culture of poverty.

More blunt than sensitive

Anywhere you find poverty in America you will find a lack of value for education in the local culture. It is a vicious problem. It doesn't matter if it's white, black, yellow brown. Urban or rural. It is blind. But the truth holds, if there is a lot of poverty, education is not a consistent value in the culture. The majority that rise out of poverty understand this or have someone significant in their lives who understands the value of education and instils it in others. Anyone who champions any other cure is offering nothing in my opinion.