Pay cuts, school closures, steeper student losses on way, DPS plan shows

[313WX]

Another related factor in this is the quasi-charter 'contraption' known as EAA [[Educational Achievement Authority) schools where DPS low performing were so converted. Schools our millages paid for [[Think the rebuilt Mumford HS, etc.)

What's up with that? How are they preforming academically? How's the chancellorship [[Covington) and what not going? Funding sources? Outcomes?

To answer your question, it's not "going" nor "performing."

The schools suffer from the same cultural problems that they did under DPS' control [[the administrators of the EAA were DPS administrators in fact). Remember that Pershing, where the teacher beat the students with a broom stick for fighting in the classroom, is an EAA school.

The biggest difference is the teachers aren't unionized, but rather they're at-will, lowly-paid Teach for America contractors.

[Honky Tonk]

It be a total loss for poor Detroit kids. A Detroit without its Detroit Public Schools is like having City of Inkster without Inkster Public Schools. And it happened.


This will be the result for poor welfare food stamp eating Detroit kids will go for education:

1. Detroit Charter Schools Buildings will be in place for them. However most charter schools are very strict; sometimes forcing their students to learn fast and do the homework like clockwork robotic automatons until their reach college level educational requirements. Refusal to follow such rules will result of exclusion from that institution, causing the parent to go to any administrator to appeal their case. If the student[[s) reach college, their minds will burn out before they can drop-out in the first year.

2. Some Detroit Charter Schools Buildings have failed earlier times. Causing parents to send their child to other charter schools Detroit or suburbs or via school of choice to some suburban schools. [[ In which white middle class folks don't want.)

3. Most suburb schools apply the code of conduct zero tolerance rules that certain charter schools have. This would put pressure of the student[[s) and parent[[s).

This whole public educational system in Great State of 'Mich-ississippi' is a mess of monopoly, treating public schools as a corporation in order to receive government funding. It's has gone too far and kids are losing out and dropping out in the process.

Teachers, quite whining about your pensions and teach my child.

Administrators, quite playing politics and fix our school campuses.

Kids, summer playtime is over. Go to school or else!

Kids, quit screwing around with your cellphones, surfing the internet, listening to music, and tex'n your friends. Start showing up, paying attention, doing and turning in homework, and actually learning something. This way you'll get an education, be qualified to get a good paying job, be able to buy coffees @ Fourbux, not become a burden to society. Attending DPS does not mean showing up once a year on "count-day", and getting a free I-Phone.

[Jimaz]

pro-charter absolutism sucks, especially when poor students are the main "guinea pigs". there has yet to be any empirical evidence that points to their much vaunted vast superiority. It's just not out there. Why are all the pro-charter folks against any standardized regulation?

I'd guess it has something to do with the profit motive.

FBI Raids of Charter School Operators Jump: Are the Feds finally catching on that all is not well in the charter school movement?

[Zacha341]

Yep. I was using colloquial conversational terms specifically for effect -- asking rhetorically actually. I agree with you, much of the problem continues per the cultural underlying problem of values and parenting. In this case [[EAA) add to it an even faster revolving door of teachers. Another PRE-Formed system from the start. Follow the money I say.

To answer your question, it's not "going" nor "performing."

The schools suffer from the same cultural problems that they did under DPS' control [[the administrators of the EAA were DPS administrators in fact). Remember that Pershing, where the teacher beat the students with a broom stick for fighting in the classroom, is an EAA school.

The biggest difference is the teachers aren't unionized, but rather they're at-will, lowly-paid Teach for America contractors.

[BankruptcyGuy]

The way I see it, there are two separate questions:

1. How can it be that DPS cannot balance its budget? It knows [[roughly) the numbers of teachers and students it will have. It knows [[roughly) the other costs of operation. The state reimbursement and the teacher costs are not orders of magnitude different from other districts. Why can't they match costs to revenues?

2. On the other hand, DPS may need to spend more [[per child) and hire better teachers [[do they?) to get OUTCOMES that are either close to other districts or in line with expectations. Otherwise put, will the state need to spend more in DPS [[or the EAA, or Detroit-based charters) to get reasonable results of education?

I understand #2 is a very tricky question. I don't think that #1 is all that complicated. And that is a failing of administration [[who come from the union ranks, mostly) and the unions.

The Wayne RESA enhancement millage [[which failed) was pitched as a way to get better technology in classrooms, keep programs for kids, and improve buildings. Yet, when it failed, the only cut announced was teachers' salaries. Was the millage really just to preserve teachers' salaries?

[motz]

I'd guess it has something to do with the profit motive.

FBI Raids of Charter School Operators Jump: Are the Feds finally catching on that all is not well in the charter school movement?

You don't understand the free market, Jimaz. Why is the FBI trying to regulate the free market? It's for the kids man, c'mon. Free market for the kids.

[Jimaz]

You don't understand the free market, Jimaz. Why is the FBI trying to regulate the free market? It's for the kids man, c'mon. Free market for the kids.

Sarcasm noted.

In a related story, For-Profit College Grads Have The Same Shot At A Job Interview As People Who Never Went To College

In their television ads, for-profit colleges promise to deliver credentials that will jump-start students’ careers. The people lured in by that marketing end up deeper in debt than community college students but fare no better with hiring managers, according to a new study. In fact, for-profit graduates don’t even gain a job hunting advantage over applicants with no college experience at all....

That on top of the student debt trap is just another example of how predatory our world has become. Caveat discipulus!

[Wesley Mouch]

The way I see it, there are two separate questions:

1. How can it be that DPS cannot balance its budget? It knows [[roughly) the numbers of teachers and students it will have. It knows [[roughly) the other costs of operation. The state reimbursement and the teacher costs are not orders of magnitude different from other districts. Why can't they match costs to revenues?

2. On the other hand, DPS may need to spend more [[per child) and hire better teachers [[do they?) to get OUTCOMES that are either close to other districts or in line with expectations. Otherwise put, will the state need to spend more in DPS [[or the EAA, or Detroit-based charters) to get reasonable results of education?

I understand #2 is a very tricky question. I don't think that #1 is all that complicated. And that is a failing of administration [[who come from the union ranks, mostly) and the unions.

The Wayne RESA enhancement millage [[which failed) was pitched as a way to get better technology in classrooms, keep programs for kids, and improve buildings. Yet, when it failed, the only cut announced was teachers' salaries. Was the millage really just to preserve teachers' salaries?

You wisely touch on a central problem. The current status-quo doesn't direct funds to the students. The incentives reward bureaucracy and increasing costs.

Perhaps Charters can show the way here. Their biggest contribution may be finding a better financial model where the incentive is to educate at the most economical cost -- not with the most powerful bureaucracy.

[trstar]

Yeah, Charters are great, until they don't meet "their targets" then they move on.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2014308200035

Sorry it didn't work out, but we got to move on. I'm sure you will be OK, the free market will save you.

Destroying public education will be/is the biggest crime of the century.

[Schoolcraft]

I guess what I don't understand is the definition of giving parents "choice." If there's not ONE charter school performing at or better than the level than the top public school, how is that a choice? Congrats DPS parent, you just took your kids out of one mediocre school and put them into another mediocre [[or worse) school. Charters [[In Detroit) are the biggest sham ever... don't people wonder why the most for-profit charters are in Michigan, and why the most for profit charters in Michigan are in Detroit? It's criminal to try to have a bottom line and make money off of these poor kids and not even provide them an education.

And I disagree with those folks who called DPS a bad school district prior to the early 2000's. The district had grown to almost 180,000 kids in the late 1990's. How could such a bad school district be growing?? There were bad schools in the district, but there's going to be bad schools in a district in a city with poor folks. Charters have made DPS schools perform worse, while not providing any better options. Now you see the best schools in DPS struggling to keep their extracurricular programs alive and doing worse on testing. The state destroyed a school system and wonders why we have the Detroit we do today.

[motz]

You wisely touch on a central problem. The current status-quo doesn't direct funds to the students. The incentives reward bureaucracy and increasing costs.

Perhaps Charters can show the way here. Their biggest contribution may be finding a better financial model where the incentive is to educate at the most economical cost -- not with the most powerful bureaucracy.

So we're totally unable to have a public system that is administered correctly? And do you really think that we should look at education as a "We must maximize everything we get out of this!!!", as if public education of children is like running a Walmart? I will agree that the "old" model won't work in a post-Reagonomics world, but to scrap everything and turn it over to people who have already shown they are just as grossly irresponsible sounds like the most piss poor "business" decision ever.

Stop trying to think that government, and basic government services like trash pickup, road repair, education, etc, need to be run like businesses. Government is not about profit, government is about providing quality necessary services for the citizens. And I'm sorry, but businesses run like Walmart deliver a subpar product with subpar service and a subpar outcome. That's not how I want my schools run.

[professorscott]

Charter schools are a bit like a suntan. A suntan is a reaction of your body to an injury, and while some may think it looks nice, it is actually potentially harmful.

Charter schools exist for the most part in places where the public schools are, by any objective measure you'd like to use, miserably failing. So, if you like, they are a reaction to school management's injury to children. And while some may think they are better, they are certainly not all better, and some are worse.

I have always felt the problem is the captive-audience system of determining where you go to school simply by where you live. It would be like saying, OK there's a Target store over here and a Wal Mart over there, but if you live closer to Target you can only shop at Target, and if you live closer to Wal Mart you can only shop at Wal Mart. And there are legal penalties if you fake your address so you can shop at the store you like better.

The main difference between real life and my lame analogy is that it is actually critically important to a child's future what kind of education he or she gets, whereas the decision as to which discount store to patronize is a pretty insignificant choice.

A better solution would be the open market to the public schools solution. Every school district must accept students from any other district, subject only to available classroom space. Districts are only responsible for transportation [[if they choose to provide it at all) within their own boundaries; parents are responsible, if coming from another district, to get their children to a bus stop within their district of choice. State funds follow the students.

But the chance of the state even proposing such a thing, in the face of a large, entrenched bureacracy well-served by the existing idiotic situation, is pretty close to zero.

By the way, yes, this absolutely means some schools will fail, and close. And they should. If they aren't providing an education to the point that parents are willing to incur inconvenience and expense to send their children elsewhere, the people in charge of such schools don't deserve to have their phony-baloney jobs.

[Wesley Mouch]

Charter schools are a bit like a suntan. A suntan is a reaction of your body to an injury, and while some may think it looks nice, it is actually potentially harmful.

Charter schools exist for the most part in places where the public schools are, by any objective measure you'd like to use, miserably failing. So, if you like, they are a reaction to school management's injury to children. And while some may think they are better, they are certainly not all better, and some are worse.

I have always felt the problem is the captive-audience system of determining where you go to school simply by where you live. It would be like saying, OK there's a Target store over here and a Wal Mart over there, but if you live closer to Target you can only shop at Target, and if you live closer to Wal Mart you can only shop at Wal Mart. And there are legal penalties if you fake your address so you can shop at the store you like better.

The main difference between real life and my lame analogy is that it is actually critically important to a child's future what kind of education he or she gets, whereas the decision as to which discount store to patronize is a pretty insignificant choice.

A better solution would be the open market to the public schools solution. Every school district must accept students from any other district, subject only to available classroom space. Districts are only responsible for transportation [[if they choose to provide it at all) within their own boundaries; parents are responsible, if coming from another district, to get their children to a bus stop within their district of choice. State funds follow the students.

But the chance of the state even proposing such a thing, in the face of a large, entrenched bureacracy well-served by the existing idiotic situation, is pretty close to zero.

By the way, yes, this absolutely means some schools will fail, and close. And they should. If they aren't providing an education to the point that parents are willing to incur inconvenience and expense to send their children elsewhere, the people in charge of such schools don't deserve to have their phony-baloney jobs.

Appreciate the respectful post on this.

Couple comments:

I thought that we had fairly robust cross-district open enrollment. Is this more limited than I realize? If so, why? The open-market for public schools is an excellent idea -- with or without charters.

You're right about large entrenched bureaucracy. That's one of the reasons I like Charters. I believe public schools are improving because of the existence of Charters. They know they will lose their students if they don't put students ahead of bureaucracy and bloat. That benefits all students.

I'm also curious about your statement that 'by any objective measure' charters are miserably failing. That doesn't ring true to me. I read stories about successful Charters. Maybe these are not the norm. But the idea is that failure is an option. Let's fix the rules so Charters that don't deliver do fail and close. The idea isn't a profit machine. Its competition. We needn't discard a good thing because it isn't perfect. Certainly you say that about traditional public schools. Don't discard because its failed. Fix it. Agreed. Both public and charter should be closed if they are 'failing miserably'.

[BankruptcyGuy]

Appreciate the respectful post on this.

Couple comments:

I thought that we had fairly robust cross-district open enrollment. Is this more limited than I realize? If so, why? The open-market for public schools is an excellent idea -- with or without charters. ... I believe public schools are improving because of the existence of Charters. They know they will lose their students if they don't put students ahead of bureaucracy and bloat. That benefits all students.

I'm also curious about your statement that 'by any objective measure' charters are miserably failing. That doesn't ring true to me. I read stories about successful Charters. Maybe these are not the norm. But the idea is that failure is an option. Let's fix the rules so Charters that don't deliver do fail and close. The idea isn't a profit machine. Its competition. We needn't discard a good thing because it isn't perfect. Certainly you say that about traditional public schools. Don't discard because its failed. Fix it. Agreed. Both public and charter should be closed if they are 'failing miserably'.

A few thoughts:

1. Cross-district enrollment can be limited to the county in which the school is located [[ISD, actually) or to the ISDs adjoining their ISD. Some Macomb County schools are schools of choice for Macomb County only, some for Macomb, Oakland, Wayne, St. Clair, etc. It's been put in place in some of what we think of as "high-performing" districts, like Ann Arbor and Plymouth-Canton most recently.

Talking heads don't seem to have the same reaction when students leave a home district for another traditional public school, compared to students leaving to a charter. That smells to me like the complaint is not damaging under-performing schools [[which are equally damaged by both departures), but undermining the union [[which are neutral to the child staying in traditional public schools, but lose revenue when the child goes to a charter).

2. SOME public schools are improving because of charters [[I think DPS is in that category, certainly). Some continue failing because their stakeholders think it is a better idea to complain about competition than react to it. Reminds me of the 1980's around here.

[professorscott]

Appreciate the respectful post on this. Couple comments:

I thought that we had fairly robust cross-district open enrollment. Is this more limited than I realize? If so, why? The open-market for public schools is an excellent idea -- with or without charters.

Well, since we're talking mostly about Detroit here on DY, let me ask: is there one single district outside Detroit that will accept Detroit students? I'm not aware of any. Also I'm not aware of any cross-county cross-district open enrollment, which is important because kids on the north side of the D live closer to schools in south Oakland and Macomb counties than in western Wayne or [[imagine) the Pointes.

I'm also curious about your statement that 'by any objective measure' charters are miserably failing.

Sorry I was not clearer. What I meant was, the existence of charter schools in an area is usually because the local public schools are failing.

[Dumpling]

http://www.district7.net/

Residents of Warrendale on the west side of Detroit periodically receive
open invitations for their school aged children to attend Dearborn District
Seven schools. According to the site above enrollment is open through
11th grade. It appears that enrollment for 12th grade is more restricted.

[313WX]

http://www.district7.net/

Residents of Warrendale on the west side of Detroit periodically receive
open invitations for their school aged children to attend Dearborn District
Seven schools. According to the site above enrollment is open through
11th grade. It appears that enrollment for 12th grade is more restricted.

I also saw a billboard in NE Detroit today advertising East Detroit Public Schools...

[Wesley Mouch]

I also saw a billboard in NE Detroit today advertising East Detroit Public Schools...

Clearly cross-county lines.

Ferndale accepts applications for their University High School from any county: "Schools of Choice Application: Required for all students who are not residents of the Ferndale Public School District. If you live in Oakland County, fill out the Section 105 Form. If you live in Wayne, Macomb, Livingston Counties, fill out the Section 105c Form"

[SDCC]

When I lived in Detroit in 06, my niece attended Melvindale public schools

[Cliffy]

So bloat and bureaucracy are the new code words for "Pension and health insurance". Wow, the peasants are brain washed.

[Zacha341]

^^^ Don't forget the new bureaucracy created to save us from the waste, diversions and other problems re. pensions and health insurance.

[Wesley Mouch]

So bloat and bureaucracy are the new code words for "Pension and health insurance". Wow, the peasants are brain washed.

No need for code words. No need for you to be paranoid that there's a vast right-wing conspiracy. There is. Its not a secret. No code required.

What you don't get it that pensions and health benefits are fine things. But they are not more important than education. Detroit teachers average something like $41k vs. $54k state-wide. That isn't enough. It should be more. And I'm all in favor of increasing pay, and increasing taxes to pay for more pay.

However requiring certain pay levels and killing charters to protect wages isn't of any interest to me. Only interested in how we can do a better job of educating children, especially in urban areas where they've so clearly been left behind by the system.

Do your best to increase teachers pay. Create your own schools and pay what you think works. Prove your theory. Do good.

But building artificial barriers to entry to protect wages at the expense of education isn't fair nor just.

[Cliffy]

Do you not realize that most teachers at Charter Schools want to get the fuck out because the pay and benefits are so horrible. Do you honestly believe the drivel that you post about no child left behind and teachers pay. You really want someone to get a bachelors and masters and not get paid $54k a year to teach your kids and basically form them in life. Wesley.... Wake the fuck up. You are the biggest shill on this website.

[Wesley Mouch]

Do you not realize that most teachers at Charter Schools want to get the fuck out because the pay and benefits are so horrible. Do you honestly believe the drivel that you post about no child left behind and teachers pay. You really want someone to get a bachelors and masters and not get paid $54k a year to teach your kids and basically form them in life. Wesley.... Wake the fuck up. You are the biggest shill on this website.

Thanks for the love. I appreciate your warmth and kindness.

Teacher pay is a problem. Student performance bigger problem. I don't believe that pay solves everything. I'd like to see better pay for teachers.

But not enough to worry about their pay before I worry about a system that educates.

Pay is not the only factor in teacher quality. And along with teacher pay in public schools we get tenure and absolute resistance to any measurements of quality -- in dreadful fear of a return to the old pre-union days. I can share those concerns.

But not enough to make it the only priority.

[BankruptcyGuy]

I don't think there is a legal difference between how much charters or traditional public schools may pay for health insurance. Both are capped under state law. Some districts have figured out how to provide health care coverage for less than the cap.

Districts that use MESSA for health insurance have found leaving difficult, for two reasons: 1) MESSA does not provide employer [[i.e. district) level claims data--they only provide claims data for their entire group, so for the first year, replacement providers have to guess--and err on the high side, and 2) the unions scream like mad when you try to take that away. It is an area for potential cost-savings throughout all districts that use them.

The pension number is the largest difference, and it's so big you might think I'm lying. This year, for every dollar my district spends on teachers' salaries, they have to send the state another $0.30. That's insane. That means I could give the teachers a 5% raise, contribute 10% of their salary to a 401[[k) and still save 15% on salary costs. That's why charters have all kinds of fancy equipment, nice-looking classrooms, etc.

The real issue for parents is that their children are not a social experiment. If the long-term answer would otherwise call for the kids to stick around to stabilize the local school, that still means that some child is going to receive a substandard education, because those years can't be replaced. If parents care enough, and see that there is another school offering a better product, they're going to jump, and they should.

We can't pretend that schools--public, charter, and private--are not in a competitive situation. The biggest problem administrators have is that they don't want to rock the boat, and they are so used to getting their way that they don't understand how to compete. I've had our Superintendent say "we're just going to put our best product out there..." only to have her hand slapped by the Board of Ed, because that won't cut it in today's world.