Closing in Royal Oak, moving to Midtown

[mwilbert]

Isn't it up to the property owners to decide how they wan to use their property. I really don't see how it is the responsibility of the local government to protect local businesses from competition.

If someone has a candle shop they can't use the government to stop anther candle shop from moving in next door.

OFF TOPIC - Why does this forum seem so hard to type in, constantly skipping letters?

Owners have a lot of control over how their property is used, but they are subject to various kinds of land use controls. You probably can't convert your house to a multiple family dwelling, even though you own it. That isn't to protect landlords from competition. You are probably aware of places where they have zoning where you aren't allowed to have an "adult" establishment within a certain distance of another one. That idea also isn't to prevent competition, but to prevent the formation of an "adult" district which drives out the other businesses. In Royal Oak, the idea would be that having restaurants and bars pushing out all other retail businesses is making the the town less desirable to live in, and it is perfectly reasonable to think that a town government which is primarily responsive to its residents might want to take steps to prevent that. Of course the owners could challenge those restrictions if they were ever put in place.

[animatedmartian]

Bham is "boomtown". Heh, there goes the failure of a contrived urban experience.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...ntown-activity

But really, it's probably pretty obvious the differences in how RO and Bham treat their downtowns.

[Detroitnerd]

Vinsetta Garage is in Berkley. In the bigger picture, sure a busy restaurant is throwing its weight around to the detriment of the local residents.

Thanks for the correction.

I think it's all part of a larger picture, given the anxieties in both Detroit and Royal Oak about the changing nature of our urban areas. When both inner-city African Americans and middle-class white homeowners both feel the anxiety, you can tell the forces behind it are broad and deep.

It also believe it speaks to a larger feeling of insecurity on the part of longtime residents everywhere. The forces driving this change are rich, powerful, and used to getting what they want. They grease the palms of officials to smooth their way. It gets to the point where the average citizen really doesn't feel they have any control anymore over their communities' identities or destinies.

[motz]

Bham is "boomtown". Heh, there goes the failure of a contrived urban experience.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...ntown-activity

But really, it's probably pretty obvious the differences in how RO and Bham treat their downtowns.

I feel Birmingham is really benefiting from "the recovery" of your middle-upper to upper class residents in the area. I certainly can't afford to dine or shop there, probably never will, but they are definitely filling a niche that has remained unfilled for a while: High end, urban-esque dining and shopping located with in a heavily protected, crime free bubble. There is a need for that, and I am glad they were smart enough to embrace that. Good for them.

However, Birmingham doesn't cater towards younger people who have student loans, mortgage payments or rent, other debt from college, all the while on starting salaries. That place used to be Royal Oak, seemed to shift to Ferndale for a bit and is currently being grown in Midtown. Ferndale has taken its own identity as the kinda downtown area that caters to a variety of crowds, while Royal Oak just kept plugging away instead of trying to reinvent or reshape its image. Midtown is rocking out the young professionals/college student/etc vibe, while still keeping some of the artistic flare that it's known for.

All of those words will be totally invalidated when Bham1982 posts though.

[Bham1982]

I feel Birmingham is really benefiting from "the recovery" of your middle-upper to upper class residents in the area. I certainly can't afford to dine or shop there, probably never will, but they are definitely filling a niche that has remained unfilled for a while: High end, urban-esque dining and shopping located with in a heavily protected, crime free bubble. There is a need for that, and I am glad they were smart enough to embrace that. Good for them.

However, Birmingham doesn't cater towards younger people who have student loans, mortgage payments or rent, other debt from college, all the while on starting salaries. That place used to be Royal Oak, seemed to shift to Ferndale for a bit and is currently being grown in Midtown. Ferndale has taken its own identity as the kinda downtown area that caters to a variety of crowds, while Royal Oak just kept plugging away instead of trying to reinvent or reshape its image. Midtown is rocking out the young professionals/college student/etc vibe, while still keeping some of the artistic flare that it's known for.

All of those words will be totally invalidated when Bham1982 posts though.

I'm glad you place such value in my opinions.

I basically agree with everything you wrote, though.

[Bham1982]

Second, on the quote above...are you blind or something? I have never seen anyone completely disregard everything that has happened in the city since 2008 [[the reopening of BC).

Show me actual evidence that Detroit has rebounded. Actual verifiable data. No "I waited at Slows for 2 hours last week, therefore Detroit has rebounded" nonsense.

What has happened since 2008 that you find so magical? The city is smaller, poorer, and "broker" than back then.

[dtowncitylover]

Show me actual evidence that Detroit has rebounded. Actual verifiable data. No "I waited at Slows for 2 hours last week, therefore Detroit has rebounded" nonsense.

What has happened since 2008 that you find so magical? The city is smaller, poorer, and "broker" than back then.

Of course we haven't fully rebounded, but we have turned a corner toward rebound.

I would say the opening of the Book Cadillac had a huge impact on the city. No one believed in 2000 that it could be restored and re-used and within a decade it was back to being Detroit's luxury hotel. It lead the way for the Broderick, Whitney, various Merchant Row buildings to be re-habed and reused.

Indeed the city is smaller, poorer, and broker but I think the bankruptcy will help to turn around those images. But you can't deny that from 1980-mid 2000s, downtown Detroit wasn't really relevant in the mind's of most metro Detroiters. If you worked down there, you went home at 5. If you went to a game, you did the suburban shuffle at left within 20 minutes of the game ending. Commuter students at Wayne went to classes and left. You can't say that today.

It's true I don't have "data" or a study to show you want you want because I don't think it's been done.

But to ignore Book Cadillac, Broderick, Whitney, Cobo Hall, stadium development, M-1 rail, higher rental costs, housing in the central city at a premium, MSU, Michigan, and Central having Detroit centers, new and rehab construction, new stores [[Shinola, Whole Foods, Moosejaw, City Bird, etc)...this is investment that we haven't seen in a long time and not in my generation.

But go ahead and keep on being the Professor, "Nothing to see behind the curtain" and keep thinking everyone wants to live in Birmingham.

[Bham1982]

O

It's true I don't have "data" or a study to show you want you want because I don't think it's been done.

Oh, it's been done. And it's a lot more reliable than anything you or I post on DYes.

Check out the Census American Community Survey estimates for Detroit-2008 and Detroit-2014. In basically every metric [[population, wealth, # of businesses, etc.) there has been a significant decline.

And I'm not ignoring anything, Everything you list is obviously incorporated in the larger economic and poulation numbers. I don't know why you would think a money-losing Cobo, a subsidized hotel or a seasonal Moosejaw would be examples of revitalization in the first place, but if you believe these things are transformational, then the overall economic numbers would reflect their transformational impact.

[majohnson]

Show me actual evidence that Detroit has rebounded. Actual verifiable data. No "I waited at Slows for 2 hours last week, therefore Detroit has rebounded" nonsense.

What has happened since 2008 that you find so magical? The city is smaller, poorer, and "broker" than back then.

1. For many people, Detroit is rebounding because there are middle class [[white) people moving in. For them, although population may be declining, the city bankrupt, and the city [[including midtown) is rife with crime, the influx signals movement in the right direction.
Furthermore, many would point to increasing rents and the pattern of real-estate developments in small pockets of the otherwise increasingly vacant and disinvested city as proof of heading in the right direction.

2. It is great if a business that was priced out of Royal Oak can prosper in Midtown instead of subcombing to competiton from online and other retailers. It is good for Michigan, Royal Oak, Detroit, and the company's customers.

[dtowncitylover]

It's true I don't have "data" or a study to show you want you want because I don't think it's been done.

Oh wait, yeah it did.

http://detroitsevenpointtwo.com/reso...fullreport.pdf

[dtowncitylover]

Oh, it's been done. And it's a lot more reliable than anything you or I post on DYes.

Check out the Census American Community Survey estimates for Detroit-2008 and Detroit-2014. In basically every metric [[population, wealth, # of businesses, etc.) there has been a significant decline.

And I'm not ignoring anything, Everything you list is obviously incorporated in the larger economic and poulation numbers. I don't know why you would think a money-losing Cobo, a subsidized hotel or a seasonal Moosejaw would be examples of revitalization in the first place, but if you believe these things are transformational, then the overall economic numbers would reflect their transformational impact.

So the revitalization of a major convention center won't positively help the city in the future? Ok got it.

The opening of new hotels indicates the greater need for people wanting to stay downtown. I guess no one is coming downtown.

And a regional, corporate retailer opening shop in the city is big. Moosejaw isn't seasonal, they've been open year round now for awhile.

What I don't think you're getting is that we're talking about greater downtown. I think we all agree the rest of the city is in steep decline and will continue to be. More so in the poorest of neighborhoods.

Paris didn't move up shop to GR and Greenfield or Gratiot and 7 Mile, she moved to Midtown because it's cheaper and that's where the people are.

Those estimates are city totals and not neighborhood specific numbers.

[SpartanDawg]

also, cobo made money last year despite being under renovations and not being able to be used for the majority of the time... i can't seem to find the free press article but i'm sure someone will dig it up for me

[motz]

Oh, it's been done. And it's a lot more reliable than anything you or I post on DYes.

Check out the Census American Community Survey estimates for Detroit-2008 and Detroit-2014. In basically every metric [[population, wealth, # of businesses, etc.) there has been a significant decline.

And I'm not ignoring anything, Everything you list is obviously incorporated in the larger economic and poulation numbers. I don't know why you would think a money-losing Cobo, a subsidized hotel or a seasonal Moosejaw would be examples of revitalization in the first place, but if you believe these things are transformational, then the overall economic numbers would reflect their transformational impact.

Another big issue with truly accurate information comes from the fact that there are really weird, extremely unique factors Detroit is facing. Mainly, the fact that there are A LOT of Detroit residents who don't claim residence in the city. I would wager that the number is significantly higher than other cities due to the insurance practices [[see: price gouging, paying more A YEAR in insurance than your car is worth, etc) that you don't see in, say, Cleveland or Chicago.

So if you want to know why we can't show you that hard data, that's a chunk of the reason. The other chunk is that many families are moving out of deteriorated neighborhoods for their own safety, for better schools, etc. I honestly think Detroit is still losing population, but that the numbers anyone is gathering are off [[IMO, significantly) due to an influx of people claiming outside residency.

[iheartthed]

Show me actual evidence that Detroit has rebounded. Actual verifiable data. No "I waited at Slows for 2 hours last week, therefore Detroit has rebounded" nonsense.

What has happened since 2008 that you find so magical? The city is smaller, poorer, and "broker" than back then.

Downtown Detroit's commercial vacancy rates have dramatically improved since then. In fact, downtown Detroit looks better than the suburbs by that metric.

[TTime]

Of course we haven't fully rebounded, but we have turned a corner toward rebound.

I would say the opening of the Book Cadillac had a huge impact on the city. No one believed in 2000 that it could be restored and re-used and within a decade it was back to being Detroit's luxury hotel. It lead the way for the Broderick, Whitney, various Merchant Row buildings to be re-habed and reused.

Indeed the city is smaller, poorer, and broker but I think the bankruptcy will help to turn around those images. But you can't deny that from 1980-mid 2000s, downtown Detroit wasn't really relevant in the mind's of most metro Detroiters. If you worked down there, you went home at 5. If you went to a game, you did the suburban shuffle at left within 20 minutes of the game ending. Commuter students at Wayne went to classes and left. You can't say that today.

It's true I don't have "data" or a study to show you want you want because I don't think it's been done.

But to ignore Book Cadillac, Broderick, Whitney, Cobo Hall, stadium development, M-1 rail, higher rental costs, housing in the central city at a premium, MSU, Michigan, and Central having Detroit centers, new and rehab construction, new stores [[Shinola, Whole Foods, Moosejaw, City Bird, etc)...this is investment that we haven't seen in a long time and not in my generation.

But go ahead and keep on being the Professor, "Nothing to see behind the curtain" and keep thinking everyone wants to live in Birmingham.

I can't speak for most Detroiters and whether or not they felt Detroit was relevant in the early to mid 2000s but that's when it was most relevant to me. I lived and worked in the city, as did a good chunk of my friends, and everyone I knew hung out in the city almost every weekend. We never had any problems finding a great time in the city back then and I think some of the new crowd would be surprised at how much was actually going on at that time.

[motz]

I can't speak for most Detroiters and whether or not they felt Detroit was relevant in the early to mid 2000s but that's when it was most relevant to me. I lived and worked in the city, as did a good chunk of my friends, and everyone I knew hung out in the city almost every weekend. We never had any problems finding a great time in the city back then and I think some of the new crowd would be surprised at how much was actually going on at that time.

A lot of people forget that just because everyone wasn't talking about it, doesn't mean it wasn't alive and well I know Detroit has been alive through the thick and thin, supporting numerous scenes that have produced some amazing humans, but it seems it was rarely covered from the 80s to the mid 00s, with the exception of electronic music. Even that gets painted over as "bunch of kids doing drugs in warehouses".

[TTime]

A lot of people forget that just because everyone wasn't talking about it, doesn't mean it wasn't alive and well I know Detroit has been alive through the thick and thin, supporting numerous scenes that have produced some amazing humans, but it seems it was rarely covered from the 80s to the mid 00s, with the exception of electronic music. Even that gets painted over as "bunch of kids doing drugs in warehouses".

It wasnt bankrupt yet.

[Hypestyles]

I want to see skate, soccer and surf shops in Detroit.

[SpartanDawg]

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2.../BIZ/308210027
Here's the hard data bham was asking for ;-). Also in this mentions that there is a group working to save the metropolitan building!


Here comes the rebuttal. Blah blah magic choo choo train nobody really likes Detroit tax incentives blah blah. Did I cover it all bham?

[bailey]

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2.../BIZ/308210027
Here's the hard data bham was asking for ;-). Also in this mentions that there is a group working to save the metropolitan building!


Here comes the rebuttal. Blah blah magic choo choo train nobody really likes Detroit tax incentives blah blah. Did I cover it all bham?

Well, seems like again the focus and the trumpeting of "comeback" for "Detroit" is all about 3-7 square miles. What about the other 130? You know... all that space you can fit all of boston and San Fransisco into.

CBD? totally agree and I would say its a 100% night and day positive difference from 5-10 years ago. Problem is... the opposite is true for a lot of the neighborhoods. especially the middle/working class ones.

I think you can both tout the improving CBD as well as acknowledge that outside of the green zone of the woodward corridor and some other select pockets... there has been significant and serious, and at this point likely irreversible, decline.

[313WX]

I want to see skate, soccer and surf shops in Detroit.

Well, enough of their "customer base", if you know what I mean, would first have to move into Detroit before you see those shops open up.

[iheartthed]

Well, seems like again the focus and the trumpeting of "comeback" for "Detroit" is all about 3 square miles. What about the other 140? You know... all that space you can fit all of boston and San Fransisco into.

CBD? totally agree and I would say its a 100% night and day positive difference from 5-10 years ago. Problem is... the opposite is true for a lot of the neighborhoods. especially the middle/working class ones.

I think you can both tout the improving CBD as well as acknowledge that outside of the green zone of the woodward corridor and some other select pockets... there has been significant and serious decline.

Who has ever denied that there are some serious issues going on outside of downtown? On the contrary, the resident Debbie Downer stated that there was no evidence that Detroit was turning around. That's an absurd statement to make even if you base it solely on the three miles along Woodward between the river and the New Center [[arguably the most important 3 mile stretch of roadway in the entire state of Michigan right now).

[bailey]

Who has ever denied that there are some serious issues going on outside of downtown? On the contrary, the resident Debbie Downer stated that there was no evidence that Detroit was turning around. That's an absurd statement to make even if you base it solely on the three miles along Woodward between the river and the New Center [[arguably the most important 3 mile stretch of roadway in the entire state of Michigan right now).

perhaps its semantics or context...and I'm not going to put words in other's mouths.... but I don't equate the woodward corridor with ALL of detroit. When someone says "DETROIT" has turned a corner, I balk a little at that because 90% of it HASN'T. DPS? still a tragedy. Crime? out of control. Finances/legacy costs? at best, uncertain. Blight and abandonment? huge issue. Nabes not dedicated to hipsters and "urban pioneers"? In free fall.


That is what I read BHam's post to mean. It's freaking fantastic that there is interest and investment in pockets of Detroit and it's great it takes 2 hours to get a table at Slows.. It's fucking deplorable it also takes two hours [[if they show up at all) to get a response to your 911 call [[if you're anywhere but Gilbertown.)

the pollyannas are just as out of touch as the debbie downers.

[iheartthed]

perhaps its semantics or context...and I'm not going to put words in other's mouths.... but I don't equate the woodward corridor with ALL of detroit. When someone says "DETROIT" has turned a corner, I balk a little at that because 90% of it HASN'T. DPS? still a tragedy. Crime? out of control. Finances/legacy costs? at best, uncertain. Nabes not dedicated to hipsters and "urban pioneers"? In free fall.


That is what I read BHam's post to mean. It's freaking fantastic that there is interest and investment in pockets of Detroit and it's great it takes 2 hours to get a table at Slows.. It's fucking deplorable it also takes two hours [[if they show up at all) to get a response to your 911 call [[if you're anywhere but Gilbertown.)

the pollyannas are just as out of touch as the debbie downers.

I don't think we've seen a significant and sustained rebound in any part of the city for well over half a century. Literally every part of the city had been either been stagnant or in some type of decline for half of a century. Now there is at least just a three mile stretch that is no longer following the downward trajectory. That is what "turning a corner" means. It doesn't mean everything is all strawberries and puppies. It means that something has changed.

[Detroitnerd]

Only in Detroit could a person point to tens of millions of dollars of investment by a diverse group of hundreds of stakeholders with a combined payroll in the millions and be called a "pollyanna."

I've seen some Detroit pollyannas in my day, boy, and I know them well.

Anybody looking at the amount of investment going on in this area, given how long it has languished, knows it's a fact that something big is happened.

Anybody familiar with urban revitalization in the United States over the last 20 years knows where this is headed.

Pollyannas are one thing. But those who dismiss what's going on between the river and the boulevard are like those who would look at the top 1/10 of the iceberg and dismiss it as a mere ice floe...