Closing in Royal Oak, moving to Midtown

[dtowncitylover]

The entire point of the article is that rent is so high there that some small retailers have to move. and they also cite to NATIONAL retailers Peets and B&N that either went out of business entirely, or are shedding massive amounts of stores. I really am struggling to understand how royal oak is "unraveling"... contrived urban environment notwithstanding.

Its nice to see some retailers taking a chance on midtown, but...again, but for the high rent in RO not one of them would be moving.

Barnes and Noble didn't close because of corporate, it closed because the rent was too high and they weren't given a reasonable deal. The store, as I understand, wasn't losing money and the times I was in there there were always patrons.

Mayor Ellison and the rest of our city leaders who support more and more restaurants and bars are complete two-faced idiots. One one hand they support of the retail plan [[a plan that wouldn't be needed if they had limited liquor licenses in the first place) and then on the other go ahead and allow BWW to open shop, even when the police and others say no. We already have an overcrowding of rowdy and obnoxious teens but also the rowdy and obnoxious drunken bros and sorority sisters. Why the hell do we want a large, anchor establishment that BWW is to open up shop on a corner that is kiddy corner to 3 established [[Bastone, Monks, and the club below), across the tracks from three high traffic-ed bars, AND share the block with two more drinking establishments. That Daily Trib article stated that the mayor and councilpersons liked the owner of BWW because he does great things for the community. I DON'T GIVE A FLYING F@#$. There's too many bars and restaurants. Who cares who the owner is? It's about the city becoming the next Bourbon St. which no one wants!

I just don't get it. I love beer but this is making me become a prohibitionist.

[bailey]

Barnes and Noble didn't close because of corporate, it closed because the rent was too high and they weren't given a reasonable deal. The store, as I understand, wasn't losing money and the times I was in there there were always patrons.

Mayor Ellison and the rest of our city leaders who support more and more restaurants and bars are complete two-faced idiots. One one hand they support of the retail plan [[a plan that wouldn't be needed if they had limited liquor licenses in the first place) and then on the other go ahead and allow BWW to open shop, even when the police and others say no. We already have an overcrowding of rowdy and obnoxious teens but also the rowdy and obnoxious drunken bros and sorority sisters. Why the hell do we want a large, anchor establishment that BWW is to open up shop on a corner that is kiddy corner to 3 established [[Bastone, Monks, and the club below), across the tracks from three high traffic-ed bars, AND share the block with two more drinking establishments. That Daily Trib article stated that the mayor and councilpersons liked the owner of BWW because he does great things for the community. I DON'T GIVE A FLYING F@#$. There's too many bars and restaurants. Who cares who the owner is? It's about the city becoming the next Bourbon St. which no one wants!

I just don't get it. I love beer but this is making me become a prohibitionist.

Thanks for that clarification... but the point still stands. there is nothing about this situation that would indicate an abandonment of RO for midtown by retailers for organic reasons...i.e; they think they are going to do better there. They are being squeezed out of RO and are looking for a safe harbor. 100% HAPPY they they think that safe harbor is midtown.... but I think the "RO is dead" schadenfreude can be dialed down a bit.

[Mackinaw]

Yeah, it would be good for nobody if RO died. I don't think it will, though the newspaper article's analysis that its diversity of retail will , in the short run, decline and be replaced with rows of nightspots sounds fairly accurate.

The best way to ensure diversity and strong retailing is to grow the regional pot and connect the region up better. When we are talking Birmingham, RO, Fern., and Detroit, the recipe is fairly simple. Grow from the center, create connections to the center [[some sort of reliable, true rapid transit, I don't care what format), and create for our area a distinctive urban corridor that attracts outsiders in the form of new employers and new people wanting to stay here, even if it is as simple as keeping university grads who would otherwise move to Chicago. Some will opt for RO, some will opt for Detroit, but all will be connected and the buying power and demand for diverse retail will become established. And then hopefully the same people put down roots and create families along this corridor. In the meantime, they will join forces with all of the longtime residents to create a densely populated corridor that justifies the sort of diverse, option-rich downtown areas we'd like to see in RO and Ferndale, rather than just endless Buffalo Wild Wings and shit. Bottom line: grow the pot by thinking beyond political boundaries and creating a continuous, distinctive area. We're just a just of small steps away from having that.

[motz]

The entire point of the article is that rent is so high there that some small retailers have to move. and they also cite to NATIONAL retailers Peets and B&N that either went out of business entirely, or are shedding massive amounts of stores. I really am struggling to understand how royal oak is "unraveling"... contrived urban environment notwithstanding.

Its nice to see some retailers taking a chance on midtown, but...again, but for the high rent in RO not one of them would be moving.

I think unraveling is a poor way to describe it. I like to think that the balance is shifting to an unbalanced, more bar/restaurant favored existence, which I feel isn't fully sustainable. High rents mean less diversity in the small business front, which means that it will appeal less to a wider audience. I don't think this is definitive, this is simply my opinion, but I feel for a Royal Oak-esque area, a healthy balance of nightlife and shopping is huge. I would still shop Royal Oak from time to time, but never partook in the nightlife. Now, even less incentive to go as Incognito is gone and the Salvation Army there is some kind of ironic joke.

[iheartthed]

The entire point of the article is that rent is so high there that some small retailers have to move. and they also cite to NATIONAL retailers Peets and B&N that either went out of business entirely, or are shedding massive amounts of stores. I really am struggling to understand how royal oak is "unraveling"... contrived urban environment notwithstanding.

Its nice to see some retailers taking a chance on midtown, but...again, but for the high rent in RO not one of them would be moving.

B&N is the only national chain mentioned that I would call "struggling." Peet's is in the midst of a pretty aggressive expansion outside of the West Coast.

[DetBill]

You can cling to anecdotes all you want; there are always people and businesses moving from one jurisdiction to the other.

The fact is there's no evidence whatsoever there's any sort of movement back to Detroit. DYes would be the worst possble place to ever consider the issue, as every tiniest thing is posted remotely pro Detroit, while nothing is posted going anywhere but Detroit.

If a 8-seat restaurant opens in Midtown, it gets a thread and 200 posts. If a million square foot retail expansion happens or 1,000 500k homes go up in the suburbs [[stuff that happens all the time), it will get no mention, except perhaps as an example of "poor planning".

So, in short, you believe in a reviltalization because you want to believe in a revitalization, and anecdotes like this support your worldview, even if all the reliable indicators [[Census derived population, tax base, employment, and the like) show the opposite. There are more high-end homes built /sold in exurban townships of 10,000 than in the entire city of Detroit most years.

Case in point- where my brother bought a home, there are probably something like 5,000 homes going up within a few square miles, almost none below 400k. In contrast, in Detroit, there isn't a single major for-sale development anywhere in the city. The Book Cadillac, a small development, still hasn't sold despite price cuts, subsidies and 10 years of hard sell. The market isn't there, at least not yet. The population has never been lower, the schools have never been worse, the streets have never been emptier. The black professional class, the last bedrock in the city, is mostly gone, and in West Bloomfield/Novi.

And Midtown isn't really much more urban than Royal Oak. Midtown has very spotty'limited urbanity. Anyone who wants hard-core urbanity isn't going to live anywhere in Michigan. Excepting maybe Chicago [[and even they have issues) the Midwest kind of sucks for intense, transit-oriented urbanity.

But because there are a few thousand white people from Macomb Twp living downtown/midtown in their 20's, you think the city has turned around. Not happening, at least not yet.

As a downtown resident since 1990 I think Im in a decent postion to comment, on those comments,, One would have to be blind not to notice the huge improvement in downtown and midtown,, its like night and day. There are waiting lists in many residential areas, prices are quite high, rents like Ive never seen and lots of new business and retail to complement the jobs here now. All you have to do is hang out at these establishments to see the amount of people socializing. Case in point, two saturday nights ago, we had to wait 45 minutes to get into slows [[ which i feel is average at best) and to Mercury so we drove out to Royal Oak, [[ prontos) to eat would you believe, and the place was a quarter full.. Very odd yet kinda eye opening... I have always liked Royal Oak alot, but all the retail Ive enjoyed is gone,, the cluster of restaurants seems to appeal to a certain sort, which is good for them,, but not to appealing personally.. Some friends of mine who have lived in Royal Oak a long time have even lamented that while they like the area, it really is losing its flair, quickly. I hope they all do well, but to say nothing is going on in Detroit, is well pretty inacurate to say the least. Ask those of us who live here, and believe me, there are many of us, who are far from being 20 somethings....We enjoy the diversity, culture, museums, pro sports activities, restaurants and entertainment, beautiful bike paths, Belle Isle and riverfront every day. Often I will go three or four days without even starting my car, Something we cant do anywhere else in this metro area.

[bailey]

B&N is the only national chain mentioned that I would call "struggling." Peet's is in the midst of a pretty aggressive expansion outside of the West Coast.

It closed 5 of the 7 locations it had in Michigan and I think all the stores they had in Ohio. It's not JUST the RO store that closed.

[iheartthed]

It closed 5 of the 7 locations it had in Michigan and I think all the stores they had in Ohio. It's not JUST the RO store that closed.

Yeah, but it was due to poor performance of those stores, not poor fundamentals of the company itself.

[Detroitnerd]

No, on DetroitYes, it's a zero-sum game. We don't want economic expansion and stores and neighborhoods to be successful everywhere. We want the suburbs destroyed and everyone forced to move back to Detroit. It's the only way the region can move forward, and by the region we mean Detroit. There are no alternative outcomes.

I think right-wing people are funny. Instead of getting angry about the actual stupid shit that governments do, they feel the need to invent scenarios where Liberulls [[the very people they think are so busy getting sexchanges, aborting foetuses and intravenously smoking pot that they can never get their shit together) somehow successfully create a super-state where gun-toting hippies herd them into FEMA camps with bayonets in the back and force them to eat vegan gruel and jog for the master race and spin God's eyes all day long. *eyeroll*

[dtowncitylover]

The fact is there's no evidence whatsoever there's any sort of movement back to Detroit.

First, I want to point out your usage of "at least not yet". I think you're using this because you do indeed believe there's progress and growth in the city but don't want to accept it so that when full growth does come you won't feel entirely wrong.

Second, on the quote above...are you blind or something? I have never seen anyone completely disregard everything that has happened in the city since 2008 [[the reopening of BC). Since that time there definitely has been a movement back into the city. Whether it be people's/business' personal move or people's changing perception of the city to bring them back into the city to visit and work, how are you so dense not to see that? I won't say it's some massive exodus from suburb to city [[though that would be nice), but it's hell of alot more than anything we've seen in the past 30-35 years.

[bailey]

Yeah, but it was due to poor performance of those stores, not poor fundamentals of the company itself.

yes, they are shedding poor performing stores across Michigan [[and ohio) not just closing the one in Downtown RO because RO is dying...as was the implication.

[bailey]

As a downtown resident since 1990 I think Im in a decent postion to comment, on those comments,, One would have to be blind not to notice the huge improvement in downtown and midtown,, its like night and day. There are waiting lists in many residential areas, prices are quite high, rents like Ive never seen and lots of new business and retail to complement the jobs here now. All you have to do is hang out at these establishments to see the amount of people socializing. Case in point, two saturday nights ago, we had to wait 45 minutes to get into slows [[ which i feel is average at best) and to Mercury so we drove out to Royal Oak, [[ prontos) to eat would you believe, and the place was a quarter full..

if I remember my DetroitGay rules... Pronto is a Friday night place. no one​ goes there on Saturday. [[j/k)

[motz]

Yeah, but it was due to poor performance of those stores, not poor fundamentals of the company itself.

Any company that has trouble with a coffee shop in suburban Detroit has waaayyyyy bigger problems than "poor performance". I didn't even know they had Peets locations in Michigan. I think they may have completely fudged that one up on a deeper than "people didn't want our coffee" level.

[dtowncitylover]

Any company that has trouble with a coffee shop in suburban Detroit has waaayyyyy bigger problems than "poor performance". I didn't even know they had Peets locations in Michigan. I think they may have completely fudged that one up on a deeper than "people didn't want our coffee" level.

I heard from various people that they didn't have good coffee. Also you're coming into a market where people are loyal to their coffee brand. I love Tim Hortons. Unless it's an independent shop that sells different beans, then I'll probably not support another corporate chain [[Starbucks is the exception, I love their iced coffee on a hot day).

[iheartthed]

yes, they are shedding poor performing stores across Michigan [[and ohio) not just closing the one in Downtown RO because RO is dying...as was the implication.

Yeah, I agree that Peet's alone doesn't necessarily indict RO as past prime. However, taken in conjunction with other chains like Cold Stone, a chain that's already proven popular in Michigan, plus the apparent inability of the market to absorb the excess real estate... Something's goin' on.

It could be that the landlords are trying to land the next big bar or restaurant, as the article states, but that assessment is far from air tight. For instance, why aren't lower cost mom and pop clothing retailers being replaced by higher end retailers? That would be the type of natural progression I would expect for a healthy, maturing commercial district. Granted, it's a little early to write the post-mortems but the questions are appropriate, IMO.

[animatedmartian]

^Royal Oak as a whole isn't really becoming more affluent, is it? I sort of jokingly thought that RO might become the next Bham, but there does seem to be a gap not being filled here. As many people have already mentioned, many stores were already getting too expensive for them. I don't think RO is quite at the point of being able to sustain high-end businesses consumer-wise.

Yet, I think most of those patronizing the bars and restaurants aren't necessarily RO residents and are likely coming from all over which might be skewing the local market. At least that's my theory.

[dtowncitylover]

^Royal Oak as a whole isn't really becoming more affluent, is it? I sort of jokingly thought that RO might become the next Bham, but there does seem to be a gap not being filled here. As many people have already mentioned, many stores were already getting too expensive for them. I don't think RO is quite at the point of being able to sustain high-end businesses consumer-wise.

Yet, I think most of those patronizing the bars and restaurants aren't necessarily RO residents and are likely coming from all over which might be skewing the local market. At least that's my theory.

I would say the closer you are to downtown, the better off you might be. Save for the old streets like Hendrie and Vinestta Subdivison, much of RO is still solidly middle class. My grandparent's post WW2 frame house, however, on 2nd was sold from my family for $20,000 over the cheap asking price and is being prepared to be torn down for a three story monster that will start at $500,000. This is happening and it's egregious. Look at the monsters along Maxwell near the RO YMCA.

[motz]

I heard from various people that they didn't have good coffee. Also you're coming into a market where people are loyal to their coffee brand. I love Tim Hortons. Unless it's an independent shop that sells different beans, then I'll probably not support another corporate chain [[Starbucks is the exception, I love their iced coffee on a hot day).

Offering no distinction in a crowded marketplace, closing up shop before anyone even knew you were open [[hello that's me), plus having your base product not be that great? Yeah, poor performance due to not corporate policies!

And the whole Cold Stone, Barnes and Noobles, etc... Coldstone is almost as pervasive as Subway and Starbucks around here, so no wonder they couldn't pay destination prices for what was essentially just "another Cold Stone". A lot of this has to do with poor corporate planning and unrealistic expectations of the marketplace. Otherwise we'd see a lot more of these "newer" businesses fail.

[Detroitnerd]

What? There's intense competition for a shrinking pool of young consumers? I thought it was all "The hell with those young folks. If they don't like driving and malls, they can go to Frisco or San Antone-ee-oh." You mean we can't just fill up Royal Oak with parking decks and Bass Pro Shops?

[RO_Resident]

Yeah, but it was due to poor performance of those stores, not poor fundamentals of the company itself.

Yet, in the midst of their Peet's closing on Woodward, Starbucks is opening is opening a second location near the Woodward and 13 Mile intersection.

Somebody thinks you can make money selling coffee in the immediate area.

[Detroitnerd]

Seems like Royal Oak is in flux, as evidenced by the controversy over Vinsetta's parking proposal, the opposition to the Emagine, the shifts in businesses and the opposition to the changing character of the community. It's sort of interesting to see how the "success story" of "downtown Royal Oak" is beginning to irritate the core of residents from the old days.

And, yeah, it's good fun to consider what these changes augur. And it's also amusing to see that at the very slightest suggestion that these changes in Royal Oak are somehow tied into changes in perceptions about Midtown, Bham1982 has to rush in and declare that [[a) you can't say they do and [[b) you can absolutely say they don't.

[Mark Smiles]

Barnes and Noble didn't close because of corporate, it closed because the rent was too high and they weren't given a reasonable deal. The store, as I understand, wasn't losing money and the times I was in there there were always patrons.

Mayor Ellison and the rest of our city leaders who support more and more restaurants and bars are complete two-faced idiots. One one hand they support of the retail plan [[a plan that wouldn't be needed if they had limited liquor licenses in the first place) and then on the other go ahead and allow BWW to open shop, even when the police and others say no. We already have an overcrowding of rowdy and obnoxious teens but also the rowdy and obnoxious drunken bros and sorority sisters. Why the hell do we want a large, anchor establishment that BWW is to open up shop on a corner that is kiddy corner to 3 established [[Bastone, Monks, and the club below), across the tracks from three high traffic-ed bars, AND share the block with two more drinking establishments. That Daily Trib article stated that the mayor and councilpersons liked the owner of BWW because he does great things for the community. I DON'T GIVE A FLYING F@#$. There's too many bars and restaurants. Who cares who the owner is? It's about the city becoming the next Bourbon St. which no one wants!

I just don't get it. I love beer but this is making me become a prohibitionist.

Isn't it up to the property owners to decide how they wan to use their property. I really don't see how it is the responsibility of the local government to protect local businesses from competition.

If someone has a candle shop they can't use the government to stop anther candle shop from moving in next door.

OFF TOPIC - Why does this forum seem so hard to type in, constantly skipping letters?

[rb336]

I heard from various people that they didn't have good coffee. Also you're coming into a market where people are loyal to their coffee brand. I love Tim Hortons. Unless it's an independent shop that sells different beans, then I'll probably not support another corporate chain [[Starbucks is the exception, I love their iced coffee on a hot day).

Caribou had good coffee - they never re-opened the downtown RO store as a peets. and yes, peets had crap coffee

[gazhekwe]

Hm, we are in small town Florida right now, went to market to get some coffee to make at home and picked Peet's. Love both Major Dickason'd Decaf and the Dark French Roast. Maybe the coffee shops are different than the packaged beans.

[RO_Resident]

Seems like Royal Oak is in flux, as evidenced by the controversy over Vinsetta's parking proposal, the opposition to the Emagine, the shifts in businesses and the opposition to the changing character of the community. It's sort of interesting to see how the "success story" of "downtown Royal Oak" is beginning to irritate the core of residents from the old days.

Vinsetta Garage is in Berkley. In the bigger picture, sure a busy restaurant is throwing its weight around to the detriment of the local residents.

And, yeah, it's good fun to consider what these changes augur. And it's also amusing to see that at the very slightest suggestion that these changes in Royal Oak are somehow tied into changes in perceptions about Midtown, Bham1982 has to rush in and declare that [[a) you can't say they do and [[b) you can absolutely say they don't.

We're roughly into the third generation of newbies complaining about the 4th generation of newbies.

I am concerned about the mix of businesses in downtown Royal Oak. Our family really does miss the Barnes and Noble, just like we miss the Borders in Birmingham. We would pay our coffee tax every time we would visit.