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  1. #1

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    just came to post this... bham?? anyone else detracting detroit? would love to hear their comments..

    the actual business owners now realize what's going on... people want REAL urban living. not this bs ticky tacky royal oak stuff.. Detroit moving forward...

  2. #2

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    Detroit is where the action is. The second white flight from the suburbs to Detroit has begun. While the black lower and middle class flight from Detroit to the suburbs increase. Young professionals want inner city urban living, not suburban "Keeping up with the Joneses" living. Downtown Royal Oak might get some businesses back only to local franchise restaurants that will die out in couple years. Midtown Detroit and Giberttown will see and explosion of exotic stores.

    During the past 2 years after Dan Gilbert brought in up to 20,000 jobs to Downtown Detroit and buying up every last building that he could utilize, pop up stores, yuppie apts. and super condos and even DIME music college will bring the spark back in once "Arsenal of Democracy" city. Detroit just don't make cars anymore, Automation Alley is dead! It's the hi-tech, social network engineering green jobs. That's what Americans wants. It's the wave of future.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanDawg View Post
    just came to post this... bham?? anyone else detracting detroit? would love to hear their comments..

    the actual business owners now realize what's going on... people want REAL urban living. not this bs ticky tacky royal oak stuff.. Detroit moving forward...
    The article was mostly about how there's too many bars and restaurants driving up rents forcing the other businesses out. The main problem is that Royal Oak's downtown is too small and when rents rise there's really nowhere else for businesses to go except for outside of Royal Oak.

    The positive part for Detroit is that there's multiple neighborhoods where businesses can grow. If they get priced out of one area they can just move a couple of blocks down the street for cheaper rent. Still, that doesn't mean what's currently happening in Royal Oak couldn't happen in Detroit. It's just unlikely because the room for growth is a lot bigger.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanDawg View Post
    just came to post this... bham?? anyone else detracting detroit? would love to hear their comments..

    the actual business owners now realize what's going on... people want REAL urban living. not this bs ticky tacky royal oak stuff.. Detroit moving forward...
    You can cling to anecdotes all you want; there are always people and businesses moving from one jurisdiction to the other.

    The fact is there's no evidence whatsoever there's any sort of movement back to Detroit. DYes would be the worst possble place to ever consider the issue, as every tiniest thing is posted remotely pro Detroit, while nothing is posted going anywhere but Detroit.

    If a 8-seat restaurant opens in Midtown, it gets a thread and 200 posts. If a million square foot retail expansion happens or 1,000 500k homes go up in the suburbs [[stuff that happens all the time), it will get no mention, except perhaps as an example of "poor planning".

    So, in short, you believe in a reviltalization because you want to believe in a revitalization, and anecdotes like this support your worldview, even if all the reliable indicators [[Census derived population, tax base, employment, and the like) show the opposite. There are more high-end homes built /sold in exurban townships of 10,000 than in the entire city of Detroit most years.

    Case in point- where my brother bought a home, there are probably something like 5,000 homes going up within a few square miles, almost none below 400k. In contrast, in Detroit, there isn't a single major for-sale development anywhere in the city. The Book Cadillac, a small development, still hasn't sold despite price cuts, subsidies and 10 years of hard sell. The market isn't there, at least not yet. The population has never been lower, the schools have never been worse, the streets have never been emptier. The black professional class, the last bedrock in the city, is mostly gone, and in West Bloomfield/Novi.

    And Midtown isn't really much more urban than Royal Oak. Midtown has very spotty'limited urbanity. Anyone who wants hard-core urbanity isn't going to live anywhere in Michigan. Excepting maybe Chicago [[and even they have issues) the Midwest kind of sucks for intense, transit-oriented urbanity.

    But because there are a few thousand white people from Macomb Twp living downtown/midtown in their 20's, you think the city has turned around. Not happening, at least not yet.
    Last edited by Bham1982; August-17-14 at 12:04 PM.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    If a 8-seat restaurant opens in Midtown, it gets a thread and 200 posts.
    175 of which were written by Bham1982, minimalizing the restaurant's quality, economic effect, neighborhood, clientele, menu, and Detroit in general.

    I'm sure look back on his deathbed and say, "boy, I sure am glad I spent countless hours and thousands of posts raining on everyone's parade on DetroitYes"

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    You can cling to anecdotes all you want; there are always people and businesses moving from one jurisdiction to the other.

    The fact is there's no evidence whatsoever there's any sort of movement back to Detroit. DYes would be the worst possble place to ever consider the issue, as every tiniest thing is posted remotely pro Detroit, while nothing is posted going anywhere but Detroit.

    If a 8-seat restaurant opens in Midtown, it gets a thread and 200 posts. If a million square foot retail expansion happens or 1,000 500k homes go up in the suburbs [[stuff that happens all the time), it will get no mention, except perhaps as an example of "poor planning".

    So, in short, you believe in a reviltalization because you want to believe in a revitalization, and anecdotes like this support your worldview, even if all the reliable indicators [[Census derived population, tax base, employment, and the like) show the opposite. There are more high-end homes built /sold in exurban townships of 10,000 than in the entire city of Detroit most years.

    Case in point- where my brother bought a home, there are probably something like 5,000 homes going up within a few square miles, almost none below 400k. In contrast, in Detroit, there isn't a single major for-sale development anywhere in the city. The Book Cadillac, a small development, still hasn't sold despite price cuts, subsidies and 10 years of hard sell. The market isn't there, at least not yet. The population has never been lower, the schools have never been worse, the streets have never been emptier. The black professional class, the last bedrock in the city, is mostly gone, and in West Bloomfield/Novi.

    And Midtown isn't really much more urban than Royal Oak. Midtown has very spotty'limited urbanity. Anyone who wants hard-core urbanity isn't going to live anywhere in Michigan. Excepting maybe Chicago [[and even they have issues) the Midwest kind of sucks for intense, transit-oriented urbanity.

    But because there are a few thousand white people from Macomb Twp living downtown/midtown in their 20's, you think the city has turned around. Not happening, at least not yet.
    As a downtown resident since 1990 I think Im in a decent postion to comment, on those comments,, One would have to be blind not to notice the huge improvement in downtown and midtown,, its like night and day. There are waiting lists in many residential areas, prices are quite high, rents like Ive never seen and lots of new business and retail to complement the jobs here now. All you have to do is hang out at these establishments to see the amount of people socializing. Case in point, two saturday nights ago, we had to wait 45 minutes to get into slows [[ which i feel is average at best) and to Mercury so we drove out to Royal Oak, [[ prontos) to eat would you believe, and the place was a quarter full.. Very odd yet kinda eye opening... I have always liked Royal Oak alot, but all the retail Ive enjoyed is gone,, the cluster of restaurants seems to appeal to a certain sort, which is good for them,, but not to appealing personally.. Some friends of mine who have lived in Royal Oak a long time have even lamented that while they like the area, it really is losing its flair, quickly. I hope they all do well, but to say nothing is going on in Detroit, is well pretty inacurate to say the least. Ask those of us who live here, and believe me, there are many of us, who are far from being 20 somethings....We enjoy the diversity, culture, museums, pro sports activities, restaurants and entertainment, beautiful bike paths, Belle Isle and riverfront every day. Often I will go three or four days without even starting my car, Something we cant do anywhere else in this metro area.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by DetBill View Post
    As a downtown resident since 1990 I think Im in a decent postion to comment, on those comments,, One would have to be blind not to notice the huge improvement in downtown and midtown,, its like night and day. There are waiting lists in many residential areas, prices are quite high, rents like Ive never seen and lots of new business and retail to complement the jobs here now. All you have to do is hang out at these establishments to see the amount of people socializing. Case in point, two saturday nights ago, we had to wait 45 minutes to get into slows [[ which i feel is average at best) and to Mercury so we drove out to Royal Oak, [[ prontos) to eat would you believe, and the place was a quarter full..
    if I remember my DetroitGay rules... Pronto is a Friday night place. no one​ goes there on Saturday. [[j/k)

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    The fact is there's no evidence whatsoever there's any sort of movement back to Detroit.
    First, I want to point out your usage of "at least not yet". I think you're using this because you do indeed believe there's progress and growth in the city but don't want to accept it so that when full growth does come you won't feel entirely wrong.

    Second, on the quote above...are you blind or something? I have never seen anyone completely disregard everything that has happened in the city since 2008 [[the reopening of BC). Since that time there definitely has been a movement back into the city. Whether it be people's/business' personal move or people's changing perception of the city to bring them back into the city to visit and work, how are you so dense not to see that? I won't say it's some massive exodus from suburb to city [[though that would be nice), but it's hell of alot more than anything we've seen in the past 30-35 years.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtowncitylover View Post

    Second, on the quote above...are you blind or something? I have never seen anyone completely disregard everything that has happened in the city since 2008 [[the reopening of BC).
    Show me actual evidence that Detroit has rebounded. Actual verifiable data. No "I waited at Slows for 2 hours last week, therefore Detroit has rebounded" nonsense.

    What has happened since 2008 that you find so magical? The city is smaller, poorer, and "broker" than back then.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    Show me actual evidence that Detroit has rebounded. Actual verifiable data. No "I waited at Slows for 2 hours last week, therefore Detroit has rebounded" nonsense.

    What has happened since 2008 that you find so magical? The city is smaller, poorer, and "broker" than back then.
    Of course we haven't fully rebounded, but we have turned a corner toward rebound.

    I would say the opening of the Book Cadillac had a huge impact on the city. No one believed in 2000 that it could be restored and re-used and within a decade it was back to being Detroit's luxury hotel. It lead the way for the Broderick, Whitney, various Merchant Row buildings to be re-habed and reused.

    Indeed the city is smaller, poorer, and broker but I think the bankruptcy will help to turn around those images. But you can't deny that from 1980-mid 2000s, downtown Detroit wasn't really relevant in the mind's of most metro Detroiters. If you worked down there, you went home at 5. If you went to a game, you did the suburban shuffle at left within 20 minutes of the game ending. Commuter students at Wayne went to classes and left. You can't say that today.

    It's true I don't have "data" or a study to show you want you want because I don't think it's been done.

    But to ignore Book Cadillac, Broderick, Whitney, Cobo Hall, stadium development, M-1 rail, higher rental costs, housing in the central city at a premium, MSU, Michigan, and Central having Detroit centers, new and rehab construction, new stores [[Shinola, Whole Foods, Moosejaw, City Bird, etc)...this is investment that we haven't seen in a long time and not in my generation.

    But go ahead and keep on being the Professor, "Nothing to see behind the curtain" and keep thinking everyone wants to live in Birmingham.
    Last edited by dtowncitylover; August-19-14 at 11:58 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtowncitylover View Post
    O

    It's true I don't have "data" or a study to show you want you want because I don't think it's been done.
    Oh, it's been done. And it's a lot more reliable than anything you or I post on DYes.

    Check out the Census American Community Survey estimates for Detroit-2008 and Detroit-2014. In basically every metric [[population, wealth, # of businesses, etc.) there has been a significant decline.

    And I'm not ignoring anything, Everything you list is obviously incorporated in the larger economic and poulation numbers. I don't know why you would think a money-losing Cobo, a subsidized hotel or a seasonal Moosejaw would be examples of revitalization in the first place, but if you believe these things are transformational, then the overall economic numbers would reflect their transformational impact.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    Oh, it's been done. And it's a lot more reliable than anything you or I post on DYes.

    Check out the Census American Community Survey estimates for Detroit-2008 and Detroit-2014. In basically every metric [[population, wealth, # of businesses, etc.) there has been a significant decline.

    And I'm not ignoring anything, Everything you list is obviously incorporated in the larger economic and poulation numbers. I don't know why you would think a money-losing Cobo, a subsidized hotel or a seasonal Moosejaw would be examples of revitalization in the first place, but if you believe these things are transformational, then the overall economic numbers would reflect their transformational impact.
    So the revitalization of a major convention center won't positively help the city in the future? Ok got it.

    The opening of new hotels indicates the greater need for people wanting to stay downtown. I guess no one is coming downtown.

    And a regional, corporate retailer opening shop in the city is big. Moosejaw isn't seasonal, they've been open year round now for awhile.

    What I don't think you're getting is that we're talking about greater downtown. I think we all agree the rest of the city is in steep decline and will continue to be. More so in the poorest of neighborhoods.

    Paris didn't move up shop to GR and Greenfield or Gratiot and 7 Mile, she moved to Midtown because it's cheaper and that's where the people are.

    Those estimates are city totals and not neighborhood specific numbers.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    Oh, it's been done. And it's a lot more reliable than anything you or I post on DYes.

    Check out the Census American Community Survey estimates for Detroit-2008 and Detroit-2014. In basically every metric [[population, wealth, # of businesses, etc.) there has been a significant decline.

    And I'm not ignoring anything, Everything you list is obviously incorporated in the larger economic and poulation numbers. I don't know why you would think a money-losing Cobo, a subsidized hotel or a seasonal Moosejaw would be examples of revitalization in the first place, but if you believe these things are transformational, then the overall economic numbers would reflect their transformational impact.
    Another big issue with truly accurate information comes from the fact that there are really weird, extremely unique factors Detroit is facing. Mainly, the fact that there are A LOT of Detroit residents who don't claim residence in the city. I would wager that the number is significantly higher than other cities due to the insurance practices [[see: price gouging, paying more A YEAR in insurance than your car is worth, etc) that you don't see in, say, Cleveland or Chicago.

    So if you want to know why we can't show you that hard data, that's a chunk of the reason. The other chunk is that many families are moving out of deteriorated neighborhoods for their own safety, for better schools, etc. I honestly think Detroit is still losing population, but that the numbers anyone is gathering are off [[IMO, significantly) due to an influx of people claiming outside residency.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtowncitylover View Post
    It's true I don't have "data" or a study to show you want you want because I don't think it's been done.
    Oh wait, yeah it did.

    http://detroitsevenpointtwo.com/reso...fullreport.pdf

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtowncitylover View Post
    Of course we haven't fully rebounded, but we have turned a corner toward rebound.

    I would say the opening of the Book Cadillac had a huge impact on the city. No one believed in 2000 that it could be restored and re-used and within a decade it was back to being Detroit's luxury hotel. It lead the way for the Broderick, Whitney, various Merchant Row buildings to be re-habed and reused.

    Indeed the city is smaller, poorer, and broker but I think the bankruptcy will help to turn around those images. But you can't deny that from 1980-mid 2000s, downtown Detroit wasn't really relevant in the mind's of most metro Detroiters. If you worked down there, you went home at 5. If you went to a game, you did the suburban shuffle at left within 20 minutes of the game ending. Commuter students at Wayne went to classes and left. You can't say that today.

    It's true I don't have "data" or a study to show you want you want because I don't think it's been done.

    But to ignore Book Cadillac, Broderick, Whitney, Cobo Hall, stadium development, M-1 rail, higher rental costs, housing in the central city at a premium, MSU, Michigan, and Central having Detroit centers, new and rehab construction, new stores [[Shinola, Whole Foods, Moosejaw, City Bird, etc)...this is investment that we haven't seen in a long time and not in my generation.

    But go ahead and keep on being the Professor, "Nothing to see behind the curtain" and keep thinking everyone wants to live in Birmingham.
    I can't speak for most Detroiters and whether or not they felt Detroit was relevant in the early to mid 2000s but that's when it was most relevant to me. I lived and worked in the city, as did a good chunk of my friends, and everyone I knew hung out in the city almost every weekend. We never had any problems finding a great time in the city back then and I think some of the new crowd would be surprised at how much was actually going on at that time.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by TTime View Post
    I can't speak for most Detroiters and whether or not they felt Detroit was relevant in the early to mid 2000s but that's when it was most relevant to me. I lived and worked in the city, as did a good chunk of my friends, and everyone I knew hung out in the city almost every weekend. We never had any problems finding a great time in the city back then and I think some of the new crowd would be surprised at how much was actually going on at that time.
    A lot of people forget that just because everyone wasn't talking about it, doesn't mean it wasn't alive and well I know Detroit has been alive through the thick and thin, supporting numerous scenes that have produced some amazing humans, but it seems it was rarely covered from the 80s to the mid 00s, with the exception of electronic music. Even that gets painted over as "bunch of kids doing drugs in warehouses".

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    Show me actual evidence that Detroit has rebounded. Actual verifiable data. No "I waited at Slows for 2 hours last week, therefore Detroit has rebounded" nonsense.

    What has happened since 2008 that you find so magical? The city is smaller, poorer, and "broker" than back then.

    1. For many people, Detroit is rebounding because there are middle class [[white) people moving in. For them, although population may be declining, the city bankrupt, and the city [[including midtown) is rife with crime, the influx signals movement in the right direction.
    Furthermore, many would point to increasing rents and the pattern of real-estate developments in small pockets of the otherwise increasingly vacant and disinvested city as proof of heading in the right direction.

    2. It is great if a business that was priced out of Royal Oak can prosper in Midtown instead of subcombing to competiton from online and other retailers. It is good for Michigan, Royal Oak, Detroit, and the company's customers.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    Show me actual evidence that Detroit has rebounded. Actual verifiable data. No "I waited at Slows for 2 hours last week, therefore Detroit has rebounded" nonsense.

    What has happened since 2008 that you find so magical? The city is smaller, poorer, and "broker" than back then.
    Downtown Detroit's commercial vacancy rates have dramatically improved since then. In fact, downtown Detroit looks better than the suburbs by that metric.

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