Preparatory Work for M-1 Rail Begins

[southen]

Why would you extend it to 8 Mile? Nobody lives there and there's no reason to travel to 8 and Woodward. Unless you think the black lawyers and doctors in Palmer Woods are going to ride this thing to work. [[Never gonna happen.) You guys are so unpractical... and you're talking about a $200M+ project. I think even if you put this thing immediately to Royal Oak you probably wouldn't see ridership go off the charts. I don't think white collar folks in the region care about mass transit, like at all. Becky and Jacob in Royal Oak have free parking [[unlike Chicago, where it's usually $100-300 per month to park at apt) and love their Jetta and Grand Cherokee.

you say "i think" a lot which is great, but also makes me "think" that you have no idea what you are talking about.

people do live there and since you dont pay too much attention, the fair grounds has a decent amount of retail and will only be getting more in the coming years. furthermore you have people in ferndale and royal oak who would rather not pay for parking downtown and will park and ride. you cant have a system that goes to ferndale or royal oak unless it also goes to 8 mile so its a step towards regional transit. but since with all of your expertise you dont "think" ridership would go off the charts i guess we shouldnt discuss it.

[iheartthed]

One thing I read about M-1 in the papers: Doesn't go far enough.

Fair enough.

I question is where are the employment hubs [[besides those within the 3 mile M-1 route)?

Are there enough employment 'hubs' along Woodward between New Center and 8 mile?

One thing which hasn't been mentioned about the D.C. area subway system are the large number of employment hubs along much of the routes [[D.C. area employment hubs are both centralized in the central city, downtown, but also sprawled all over the region).

E.g., Va has the Pentagon, Ballston, Crystal City, Pentagon City, etc. and of course now Tysons Corner [[and many more).

D.C.'s downtown is full of employment centers [[from Foggy Bottom-George Washington through say Union Station) which are accessible via blue, orange, or red lines [[and now the silver).

If I were to design an extended M-1 [[okay I'm dreaming here), I would take it to at least 8 mile with stops at 8 mile, 7 mile, 6 mile, etc. and have different bus lines running east/west along those mile roads making a circular [[out and back) route at Woodward.

E.g., a FEEDER bus goes southbound on Woodward from 8 Mile to 7 Mile dropping off folks at 7 Mile M-1 before routing west bound on 7 Mile to Southfield service drive and then heading north to 8 Mile and then head east bound to Woodward at M-1 station. A circular bus route which covers a big route but also feeds M-1.

[[And do the same thing with a local feeder line for the areas east of Woodward).

Anyone living near Woodward, 8 mile, 7 mile and the western perimeter [[whatever that might be. e.g. Southfield service drive) should be roughly 1/2 mile or less from a bus line. They could, if desired, transfer to M-1 and go along Woodward to their final destination headed toward downtown.

So if a person was working at a fast foot restaurant on 8 mile but lived near 7 mile, they could get on the circular bus and it would get them there. If they worked downtown, that would also work nicely.

I think that 3 miles is far enough. It makes more sense to start another line on Michigan Avenue or Gratiot than it does to prioritize a build out to 8 Mile along Woodward. I'd feel differently if we were talking about a grade separated transit rail line. But for a street car this is far enough...

[emu steve]

Why would you extend it to 8 Mile? Nobody lives there and there's no reason to travel to 8 and Woodward. Unless you think the black lawyers and doctors in Palmer Woods are going to ride this thing to work. [[Never gonna happen.) You guys are so unpractical... and you're talking about a $200M+ project. I think even if you put this thing immediately to Royal Oak you probably wouldn't see ridership go off the charts. I don't think white collar folks in the region care about mass transit, like at all. Becky and Jacob in Royal Oak have free parking [[unlike Chicago, where it's usually $100-300 per month to park at apt) and love their Jetta and Grand Cherokee.

Guess I forgot that Detroit is the "Motor City" and D.C "Transit City".

[TennisAndMath]

you say "i think" a lot which is great, but also makes me "think" that you have no idea what you are talking about.

people do live there and since you dont pay too much attention, the fair grounds has a decent amount of retail and will only be getting more in the coming years. furthermore you have people in ferndale and royal oak who would rather not pay for parking downtown and will park and ride. you cant have a system that goes to ferndale or royal oak unless it also goes to 8 mile so its a step towards regional transit. but since with all of your expertise you dont "think" ridership would go off the charts i guess we shouldnt discuss it.

If everything you think was true, the thing would have been built. Since this project has taken over 7 years and been chopped down to a measly 3 miles, we can infer that my "thoughts" are in fact more accurate. But don't let me interrupt your pie in the sky ideas of blowing $400M+ so maybe people from Royal Oak can take a train to Wings games if they want to get wasted to drive... with your city's school children graduating high school without the ability to read or divide. Strong priorities.

[professorscott]

...this project has taken over 7 years and been chopped down to a measly 3 miles...

Let's be precise. M1 Rail, which we have been planning since 2006, always had precisely the length that is now under construction. It was never any longer than what it is today.

Now, between then and now, the City planning staff had the idea of replacing M1 with a longer, and differently constructed, system, which would have gone to the fairgrounds. Without debating the merits of that, it became clear that such a thing could not be constructed for several reasons, and even if it could, it could not be operated, also for a variety of reasons. But that was a different project entirely, and once it died of its own weight, M1 came back in precisely its original form.

If you looked at what we had on the table in 2006-07 and what is on the M1 website today, all that is changed is that the station locations have moved around, and that only slightly.

[ghettopalmetto]

But don't let me interrupt your pie in the sky ideas of blowing $400M+ so maybe people from Royal Oak can take a train to Wings games if they want to get wasted to drive...

But spending billions of dollars on freeways so that people can pretend to be "pioneers", now that's worthwhile!

[Mackinaw]

8 mile? No way! Birmingham or Pontiac.

[dtowncitylover]

I'm glad there is talk of an extension, but we have to remember that is is just a tram. DTOGS' plan of a full light rail could have been taken out to Pontiac, but the Woodward tram is not meant to go that far. Most tram lines in the world only go between 5-15 miles, at most. So at the very most this should only go as far as Royal Oak, which is a natural terminus.

Trams are not meant to serve the suburban areas, or at least not far into them. I could see tram lines going into the GPs [[if they allow it) or into Dearborn.

[mwilbert]

I like light rail as much [[or more) than the next guy, but it would have been ridiculous to run DTOGS out to Pontiac. From a transit perspective, the space between Birmingham and Pontiac might as well be the Sahara, and the trip time would have been absurd.

[iheartthed]

I like light rail as much [[or more) than the next guy, but it would have been ridiculous to run DTOGS out to Pontiac. From a transit perspective, the space between Birmingham and Pontiac might as well be the Sahara, and the trip time would have been absurd.

Yeah... For some perspective, if it had really been built out to Pontiac then it would easily be the longest street car line in the world. Apparently, the longest street car line in America is one in Toronto that goes for 15 miles.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03...north-america/

[southen]

If everything you think was true, the thing would have been built. Since this project has taken over 7 years and been chopped down to a measly 3 miles, we can infer that my "thoughts" are in fact more accurate. But don't let me interrupt your pie in the sky ideas of blowing $400M+ so maybe people from Royal Oak can take a train to Wings games if they want to get wasted to drive... with your city's school children graduating high school without the ability to read or divide. Strong priorities.

your thoughts are only accurate when you use your own facts... like equating a privately funded transit line with publicly funded schools.

[dtowncitylover]

Yeah... For some perspective, if it had really been built out to Pontiac then it would easily be the longest street car line in the world. Apparently, the longest street car line in America is one in Toronto that goes for 15 miles.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03...north-america/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Coast_Tram

Also we have to remember that streetcar/tram/trolley [[synonyms of the same mode) is different than a light rail line. Portland is the famous example of both having a tram line and a light rail system.

[iheartthed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Coast_Tram

Also we have to remember that streetcar/tram/trolley [[synonyms of the same mode) is different than a light rail line. Portland is the famous example of both having a tram line and a light rail system.

I stand corrected. It would be close to the longest in the world.

But yeah, street car lines generally aren't that long for a reason. A street car would not be a very useful way to get from Pontiac to Detroit. Even to go from Royal Oak to Detroit on a street car would be a stretch, IMO. Those efforts would be better spent by getting a commuter rail line operating on the tracks that already connect Detroit, Royal Oak, Birmingham, and Pontiac. Theoretically, you could have train service running next week between those cities...

[professorscott]

Those efforts would be better spent by getting a commuter rail line operating on the tracks that already connect Detroit, Royal Oak, Birmingham, and Pontiac. Theoretically, you could have train service running next week between those cities...

You are, of course, correct, but the notion that you could have train service running quickly is extremely theoretical. SEMCOG and MDOT have been working on the Ann Arbor to Detroit commuter rail for decades. What they get hung up on [[in addition to the nonexistent funding, a solvable problem if we decide to solve it) is that the freight railways don't want any more passenger traffic on their tracks than is already there. This is not an impossible problem to solve, but it is proving to be extremely tedious and somewhat costly.

[TennisAndMath]

your thoughts are only accurate when you use your own facts... like equating a privately funded transit line with publicly funded schools.

$100M of $140M is private. So $40M in public start-up costs. The public is also running the thing. The public will also be on the hook when the thing inevitably goes over budget.

Are you also suggesting private funding will cover the cost to get it to Royal Oak or Pontiac? LOL. The same private funds that as of a couple of weeks ago were short the $100M for phase 1?

[TennisAndMath]

I like light rail as much [[or more) than the next guy, but it would have been ridiculous to run DTOGS out to Pontiac. From a transit perspective, the space between Birmingham and Pontiac might as well be the Sahara, and the trip time would have been absurd.

There is no demand. Who do people think needs to ride this from Pontiac to Detroit? Or Royal Oak to Pontiac? Pontiac is a dead city. And metro Detroit traffic isn't that bad, parking spaces are free, everyone leases a car with a family employee discount, and nobody wants to be in train with crackheads. It's like people think $400M + operating costs comes from thin air... the project would never ever support itself.

If you're 23 y.o. college grad are you going to give up a Jetta or Chevy Cruze for $199 so you can take the a trolley everywhere? No. It's an absurd waste of private and public dollars. A pure vanity project for the sleazy mortgage guy.

[dtowncitylover]

There is no demand. Who do people think needs to ride this from Pontiac to Detroit? Or Royal Oak to Pontiac? Pontiac is a dead city. And metro Detroit traffic isn't that bad, parking spaces are free, everyone leases a car with a family employee discount, and nobody wants to be in train with crackheads. It's like people think $400M + operating costs comes from thin air... the project would never ever support itself.

If you're 23 y.o. college grad are you going to give up a Jetta or Chevy Cruze for $199 so you can take the a trolley everywhere? No. It's an absurd waste of private and public dollars. A pure vanity project for the sleazy mortgage guy.

What a concept! The public paying for the public transit! Weird...

You don't get out much do you? Notice all the college graduates leaving Michigan? That's because we're a provincial state with no decent job opportunities, public transit, or a vibrant urban center. Where are they going? Chicago, Brooklyn, DC, LA...urban centers of employment, transit, and vibrancy.

Ever been a college graduate with $20,000+ of debt and just starting out in the world? I have and affording a car is not something I really want to do. But guess what? I live in Detroit and here the car and auto-centric culture is shoved down my throat and I'm made to feel bad when I voice my need for better transit options.

"The sleazy mortgage guy" knows more than you do about the need for transit in an urban society.

[SpartanDawg]

$100M of $140M is private. So $40M in public start-up costs. The public is also running the thing. The public will also be on the hook when the thing inevitably goes over budget.

Are you also suggesting private funding will cover the cost to get it to Royal Oak or Pontiac? LOL. The same private funds that as of a couple of weeks ago were short the $100M for phase 1?

false. 25 million is public.. the rest is private. move along

[mwilbert]

If you're 23 y.o. college grad are you going to give up a Jetta or Chevy Cruze for $199 so you can take the a trolley everywhere? No. It's an absurd waste of private and public dollars. A pure vanity project for the sleazy mortgage guy.

You are attacking a straw man here. I don't really think anyone believes that one streetcar line, even if it stretched from Royal Oak to downtown, would allow/convince very many people to give up car ownership. If they didn't want to own a car, there is already decent bus service on that stretch of road now. That is not the point of this project.

The point, and the reason why it has attracted the private money it has despite its limitations as transportation, is to demonstrate that Detroit is in the process of changing for the better; it represents a discontinuity between the Detroit of the past and the Detroit of the future, while referring back to the more successful Detroit of the more distant past. It does provide some actual transportation benefits, but they aren't large and they aren't the reason for the project.

[rbdetsport]

I'm glad there is talk of an extension, but we have to remember that is is just a tram. DTOGS' plan of a full light rail could have been taken out to Pontiac, but the Woodward tram is not meant to go that far. Most tram lines in the world only go between 5-15 miles, at most. So at the very most this should only go as far as Royal Oak, which is a natural terminus.

Trams are not meant to serve the suburban areas, or at least not far into them. I could see tram lines going into the GPs [[if they allow it) or into Dearborn.

You must remember that these rails have the same width as light-rail. The streetcars that they are buying for M1 Rail will be compatible if the rail line were to extend into the suburbs as light-rail. The biggest difference between light-rail and a streetcar is its operations. One is in its own ROW. The other is not. Light-Rail travels at 55 mph and has stations about a mile apart. Streetcars run at much slower speeds with stations closer together. The mechanics of the two are not very different, however. M1 Rail can and will be extended as a light-rail line into the suburbs.

[dtowncitylover]

You must remember that these rails have the same width as light-rail. The streetcars that they are buying for M1 Rail will be compatible if the rail line were to extend into the suburbs as light-rail. The biggest difference between light-rail and a streetcar is its operations. One is in its own ROW. The other is not. Light- Rail travels at 55 mph and has stations about a mile apart. Streetcars run at much slower speeds with stations closer together. The mechanics of the two are not very different, however. M1 Rail can and will be extended as a light-rail line into the suburbs.

Which is great to hear. I'm not a mechanical engineer so I don't the specifics of it all. But I'll take you on your word.

[TennisAndMath]

1.) What a concept! The public paying for the public transit! Weird...

2.) You don't get out much do you? Notice all the college graduates leaving Michigan? That's because we're a provincial state with no decent job opportunities, public transit, or a vibrant urban center.

3.) Where are they going? Chicago, Brooklyn, DC, LA...urban centers of employment, transit, and vibrancy.
Ever been a college graduate with $20,000+ of debt and just starting out in the world?

1.) Cost-benefit analysis. What a novel concept. Tell me how quickly the city/state/region makes back the $100M-400M you want to spend of others money.

2.) I think mass transit is the least of the region's concerns. Crime #1; Economy #2; Per capita education #3; convenience of Chicago #4. Weather, boring, parents moving to Florida so I have no family there anymore would all be higher than mass transit, with regard to recovery and brain drain causes.

3.) Nobody with a college degree in LA uses public transit, so let's sub LA for San Fran, shall we? 90% of my peers in Chicago have a car. 75% of my peers in D.C. have a car. Get this, many of them own a car, WITH STUDENT LOAN DEBT. If you can't afford a couple hundred bucks a month on some reliable wheels after college, perhaps you shouldn't have majored in communications or psychology. What you're also ignoring is the incredible density of the cities you cited. A car is needed in Detroit, not only because of a lack of transit, but because everything is so damn spread out.

[dtowncitylover]

1.) Cost-benefit analysis. What a novel concept. Tell me how quickly the city/state/region makes back the $100M-400M you want to spend of others money.

2.) I think mass transit is the least of the region's concerns. Crime #1; Economy #2; Per capita education #3; convenience of Chicago #4. Weather, boring, parents moving to Florida so I have no family there anymore would all be higher than mass transit, with regard to recovery and brain drain causes.

3.) Nobody with a college degree in LA uses public transit, so let's sub LA for San Fran, shall we? 90% of my peers in Chicago have a car. 75% of my peers in D.C. have a car. Get this, many of them own a car, WITH STUDENT LOAN DEBT. If you can't afford a couple hundred bucks a month on some reliable wheels after college, perhaps you shouldn't have majored in communications or psychology. What you're also ignoring is the incredible density of the cities you cited. A car is needed in Detroit, not only because of a lack of transit, but because everything is so damn spread out.

LOLZ is all I can say to your rant. Just a bunch of re-hashed talking points. Most transit never pays for itself but it does infuse the local economy with something called Transit Oriented Development [[TOD), read up, buddy. It does wonders for cities to have access to business and capital with as many options as possible. Walking, biking, car, buses, subway, tram, airports, etc. It's good to have options.

And while LA isn't the most transit friendly place, they have more than us [[they have a subway system for Christs sake) and the city/region is more vibrant that us [[perhaps not transit's doing). So I'm just keep LA, right there in the last. SanFran is good too.

Detroit can be just as dense. It was at it's height a very dense city. On par with Boston, NY, and Philly. And no one is arguing that we all have to get rid of our cars. I certainly won't. I love driving. But I also know when I'm driving downtown and think, I really don't want to drive. I would rather pay less than a parking spot and take a reliable form of mass transit. I'm sure most of your peers would agree.

I didn't realize Psychology was such a useless degree...you can be a shrink or psychologist or doctor or scientist, don't those guys make big bucks?

A car isn't needed in Detroit. For the past 60 years we have been brainwashed to believe that a car is needed in Detroit. When in the 240 years before that, Detroiters got around just fine without the car.

Mass transit is not the least of our concerns. A gondola across the Detroit River is the least of our concerns. If we want to grow the urban core, we need a mass transit system to help our poor mobility issue. This is first place to start is Woodward, the artery of the Detroit region. Once, we put in place something to build off of, we can expand. Into the neighborhoods, into the inner suburbs, and throughout the region. Education, crime, corruption, and transit/mobility are all valid and equal concerns that have their own lobby.

If you don't care about Detroit. That's fine. Leave. No one wants to hear it because we've been hearing it for 40 years. But many of us don't understand why Detroit can't be on par with Chicago or Toronto or DC.

And weather? Really? That's a concern? Yeah all the tornados, volcanoes, earthquakes, and hurricanes we get really suck.

And again, boring? Really? As I once heard it said [[about another town but it can be applied here), if you're bored here, that's your own damn fault.

[ghettopalmetto]

LOLZ is all I can say to your rant. Just a bunch of re-hashed talking points. Most transit never pays for itself but it does infuse the local economy with something called Transit Oriented Development [[TOD), read up, buddy. It does wonders for cities to have access to business and capital with as many options as possible. Walking, biking, car, buses, subway, tram, airports, etc. It's good to have options.

And while LA isn't the most transit friendly place, they have more than us [[they have a subway system for Christs sake) and the city/region is more vibrant that us [[perhaps not transit's doing). So I'm just keep LA, right there in the last. SanFran is good too.

Detroit can be just as dense. It was at it's height a very dense city. On par with Boston, NY, and Philly. And no one is arguing that we all have to get rid of our cars. I certainly won't. I love driving. But I also know when I'm driving downtown and think, I really don't want to drive. I would rather pay less than a parking spot and take a reliable form of mass transit. I'm sure most of your peers would agree.

I didn't realize Psychology was such a useless degree...you can be a shrink or psychologist or doctor or scientist, don't those guys make big bucks?

A car isn't needed in Detroit. For the past 60 years we have been brainwashed to believe that a car is needed in Detroit. When in the 240 years before that, Detroiters got around just fine without the car.

Mass transit is not the least of our concerns. A gondola across the Detroit River is the least of our concerns. If we want to grow the urban core, we need a mass transit system to help our poor mobility issue. This is first place to start is Woodward, the artery of the Detroit region. Once, we put in place something to build off of, we can expand. Into the neighborhoods, into the inner suburbs, and throughout the region. Education, crime, corruption, and transit/mobility are all valid and equal concerns that have their own lobby.

If you don't care about Detroit. That's fine. Leave. No one wants to hear it because we've been hearing it for 40 years. But many of us don't understand why Detroit can't be on par with Chicago or Toronto or DC.

And weather? Really? That's a concern? Yeah all the tornados, volcanoes, earthquakes, and hurricanes we get really suck.

And again, boring? Really? As I once heard it said [[about another town but it can be applied here), if you're bored here, that's your own damn fault.

Just want to say that I LOVE your optimism. That's the kind of spirit that once made Detroit into a powerhouse, and will do it again.

The M1 Rail won't solve every problem in Detroit. But it's a start toward developing a modern transportation system that can get more people participating in the regional economy, and restore portions of a city that has been gutted for cars. It's just shameful that it had to fall upon local business leaders to provide public infrastructure for which the city has been starving.

[TennisAndMath]

Just want to say that I LOVE your optimism. That's the kind of spirit that once made Detroit into a powerhouse, and will do it again.

The M1 Rail won't solve every problem in Detroit. But it's a start toward developing a modern transportation system that can get more people participating in the regional economy, and restore portions of a city that has been gutted for cars. It's just shameful that it had to fall upon local business leaders to provide public infrastructure for which the city has been starving.

3 miles took over 7 years. When phase I costs inevitably go over budget, who's paying? When taxpayers are on the hook for say $80M of this, how eager are the tax payers going to be for phase II? Maybe you'll get phase II by 2025, if you're lucky. Most likely never, because nobody is going to ride phase I.

I don't think s/he's optimistic, s/he sounds like a shill who lacks travel experience and exposure to functioning US cities. I'm here because I care about Detroit. With all due respect, blind optimism is not the answer to the city's problems.