Preparatory Work for M-1 Rail Begins

[Junjie]

BRT isn't popular At. All. There are only five bus routes in the United States designated as "BRT". None--not a single one--matches the performance of a light rail system. Cleveland's is considered the best, and even that is a far cry from the 60-year-old rail service.

It's hard to figure out why you attribute this to the vehicles themselves, though. The rail line [[Red) in Cleveland has fully grade-separated right of way and makes 8 stops between Tower City and Windermere. The "BRT" line runs on the street [[e.g. has to pass through intersections and stop at signals) and makes 33[[!) stops. I defined rapid transit as dedicated right of way + frequency, but let's add "limited stop service" to the list. 33 stops in 7 miles is not rapid transit, that's local bus in a dedicated lane. It's no surprise the rail does far better.

As far as northern VA, let me speak from personal experience as a two-year commuter from Van Dorn [[next to last stop on Blue Line) in to Foggy Bottom. For the first year I rode the Blue Line exclusively because I assumed that rail had to beat bus, especially over such a long distance. But eventually I noticed all these people in ties standing at bus stops on the roads near my apartment in the morning. It turns out that while the frequency isn't as good, buses make the trip from Van Dorn to the Pentagon significantly faster than the train because they take a direct route on what are basically dedicated lanes [[HOV3) on I395. So I switched to taking the bus if I happened to be leaving at the time when a bus was definitely coming soon, and doing so saved me time [[and money) over the train.

I'm not saying the vehicle doesn't matter at all, but I think it's pretty clear that the design of the actual system has much more to do with how quickly or reliably you get someplace. If you put a train in tracks on the street and gave it 33 stops in 7 miles [[aka, a streetcar) it's not going to beat a bus running in a purpose-built exclusive viaduct with 8 stops.

More people might still ride the train just because of the train > bus social bias, comfort issues or whatever, but that's a different point from performance.

[professorscott]

I'm not saying the vehicle doesn't matter at all, but I think it's pretty clear that the design of the actual system has much more to do with how quickly or reliably you get someplace.

Thank you, Junjie. Precisely the point I was trying to make, but you made it much more succinctly. I have to work on my succinct.

[Junjie]

Thank you, Junjie. Precisely the point I was trying to make, but you made it much more succinctly. I have to work on my succinct.

Ha, well looking at my own posts I'm rarely the most succinct either, but glad if I'm at least being clear.

Anyway apologies for starting this BRT tangent, I know the argument has been hashed out here before. Hurray M-1 construction!

[emu steve]

It's hard to figure out why you attribute this to the vehicles themselves, though. The rail line [[Red) in Cleveland has fully grade-separated right of way and makes 8 stops between Tower City and Windermere. The "BRT" line runs on the street [[e.g. has to pass through intersections and stop at signals) and makes 33[[!) stops. I defined rapid transit as dedicated right of way + frequency, but let's add "limited stop service" to the list. 33 stops in 7 miles is not rapid transit, that's local bus in a dedicated lane. It's no surprise the rail does far better.

As far as northern VA, let me speak from personal experience as a two-year commuter from Van Dorn [[next to last stop on Blue Line) in to Foggy Bottom. For the first year I rode the Blue Line exclusively because I assumed that rail had to beat bus, especially over such a long distance. But eventually I noticed all these people in ties standing at bus stops on the roads near my apartment in the morning. It turns out that while the frequency isn't as good, buses make the trip from Van Dorn to the Pentagon significantly faster than the train because they take a direct route on what are basically dedicated lanes [[HOV3) on I395. So I switched to taking the bus if I happened to be leaving at the time when a bus was definitely coming soon, and doing so saved me time [[and money) over the train.

I'm not saying the vehicle doesn't matter at all, but I think it's pretty clear that the design of the actual system has much more to do with how quickly or reliably you get someplace. If you put a train in tracks on the street and gave it 33 stops in 7 miles [[aka, a streetcar) it's not going to beat a bus running in a purpose-built exclusive viaduct with 8 stops.

More people might still ride the train just because of the train > bus social bias, comfort issues or whatever, but that's a different point from performance.

I agree with you.

I took the Yellow/Blue line from Van Doren Wednesday afternoon [[during rush hour) to downtown and it took for ever.

My trip to work which was a 29 [[express along the 395 HOV lanes) bus to the Pentagon and then to downtown was faster each morning [[also rush hour).

If I'm flying out of Reagan I take a 29N bus along Duke to King Street subway and then the short subway ride to the airport.

One thing which is not highlighted here:

In Detroit folks can opt to take public or private transit and weigh the options in terms of time, cost, flexibility, social bias, etc. etc.

In D.C. area a lot of the private transportation options aren't that desirable. Sitting in traffic [[vs. sitting in a subway car reading the newspaper), very high cost of parking, etc. [[BTW, also the federal government and some private employers subsidize employees using public transit).

In Detroit opting to drive [[vs. public transit) is usually an easy decision. Not so in D.C. area.

BTW, M-1 is like the original subway back in say 1976 which served mostly just downtown. It did not serve the 'burbs.

One can say that M-1 2016 will be similar to the D.C. subway system circa 1976.