Ilitch announces Huge plans for Red Wings Arena Project - Renderings Released

[Mackinaw]

"It would take forever for those blocks to develop one by one [[or 1/3 by 1/3, i.e. a single building on a block which could hold three buildings) via traditional development."

It takes forever in Detroit because you have land speculators along with empire builders, like Ilitch, who sit on property forever, whether there's a demand for development or not. Are we supposed to believe that the entire area behind the Fox/Fillmore is almost entirely vacant because there was no demand for that property? Add to that the city's Byzantine process of permitting and the interference run by the likes of the DDA and Demolition Jackson, when he was in charge, and you have an environment that discourages any kind of development other than the mega developments like Ilitch is proposing. This isn't just a Detroit thing. I've seen this in other cities where they actively discourage incremental development hoping, sometimes for decades, for some mega development to suck up all that vacant land.

You are both right, but in this case, Novine is more right. Going all-in on this concept is simply the best hope to rectify all of the issues for this space of the city, whether caused by Illitch or not. To the extent the building boom loses steam [[perhaps west of the Fox) one would really hope that the Illitch empire gets splintered up so that piecemeal development can occur.

[detroitbob]

I think that we've set a new record here... 31 posts before a "negative" post popped up, I'll remain hopeful... time will tell

and why am I not surprised that Bham 1982 has this honor?

[royce]

It is great to see that there are offices and ground floor retail facing Woodward. I would hate to see a sea of parking lots leading up to the arena from the street. Also, good to see the Ilitches deciding to put something on those parking lots in front of Comerica Park. In addition, it's good to see them make use of Columbia Street. However, instead of an office building and ground floor retail, they should consider apartments and retail.

Overall, the plan is exciting and I hope the apartments and retail get built within a few years after the arena. Although the renderings aren't precise, the footprint of where things will go is promising.

[emu steve]

It is great to see that there are offices and ground floor retail facing Woodward. I would hate to see a sea of parking lots leading up to the arena from the street. Also, good to see the Ilitches deciding to put something on those parking lots in front of Comerica Park. In addition, it's good to see them make use of Columbia Street. However, instead of an office building and ground floor retail, they should consider apartments and retail.

Overall, the plan is exciting and I hope the apartments and retail get built within a few years after the arena. Although the renderings aren't precise, the footprint of where things will go is promising.

I tried to go through the rendering and figure out what is going to be built, when, and what is fantasy stuff [[lot of renderings for outdoor cafes, etc. are unrealistic - outdoor cafes in Detroit in January?).

What I'd do or think will happen. It will be a slow start until 1916.

1). After the end of the baseball season, the sea of parking, etc. along Woodward to Temple gets cleared.

2). I'd start building the Comerica Park garage then [[fall, 2014) to replace the aforementioned surface parking.

3). Maybe after the 2015 baseball season even before the new arena is arising from the ground, I think we'll see the Comerica lots be built upon. Big thing here, is that the Comerica parking garage has to be done first. Can't clear too much surface parking without replacement parking.

4). In 1916 the arena is taking shape and this is when a hotel on the corner of Henry/Woodward is built. I believe I saw green space behind it and a parking garage up by Henry/Park. I can see three new parking garages: Near Comerica, along Henry by Park, and one on Montcalm near Clifford.

5). 2017 is when things 'attached' [[in quotes) to the arena are built such as the two mid-rise apartment buildings, any planned eateries, etc. and maybe the office building at Woodward/Temple.

6). 2017 some streetscaping, including new lighting, sidewalks, etc. throughout the area, clean up of Cass Park, etc. Maybe clearing areas which might not develop for the next 5 - 10 years but still are aesthetically important.

By July 2017 Phase I should be essentially complete and the Woodward from Elizabeth to Charlotte has been transformed with new buildings, M-1, new paving of Woodward, etc.

I see Phase II being more TBD depending on demand for housing, retail, etc. and private investors wanting to jump aboard. E.g., Brush Park is completely TBD and depends on employment growth in the CBD. The area near Grand River [[and the MC Casino) could be the site of a 5K soccer stadium if Dan Duggan gets a USL franchise. I see the area behind the Fox being completely speculative as it has no Woodward frontage and I'm not sure it is the best location for new housing and I'm not sure there is much demand there for new office space. Do remember there are other options for housing such as Gilbert who still could pump in a LOT of housing at the jail site [[and there could be other housing such as Woodward/Alfred or areas d west of the arena nearer Grand River.).

[canuck]

I think 1916 is a little early to call on this project, give it time...

[canuck]

I think 1916 is a little early to call on this project, emu steve: give it time...

[emu steve]

I think 1916 is a little early to call on this project, emu steve: give it time...

I don't see much having been completed by 2016, MOSTLY things DISTANT from the arena [[South of the Fisher).

I watched how development occurred around Nationals Park. Things don't happen too close to the construction site as heavy equipment, etc. is working on site.

Matter of fact, it would be fine if the only things built 2015/16 are at Comerica Park [[e.g., the new parking garage + 2 residential buildings), a new building at W. Columbia, a parking garage on Montcalm at Clifford, etc.

That's all physically separate from the arena.

I'd like to see the new hotel at Woodward/Henry, green space and a new parking garage at Henry/Park built in 2016 but 2017 is more likely, I'd think.

[emu steve]

BTW, I was thinking of some 'winners' for this project [[not directly involved):

1). Those townhomes across from the arena on Woodward. A low rise arena is a blessing for them.

2). A little out of the box, but Cass Tech students. Their neighborhood is getting better and that has to be a good thing!

[ghettopalmetto]

And here, I was afraid it would look like a suburban "lifestyle center".

This isn't a bad concept. But bear in mind that it's easy to render greenery and people sitting at cafes. If I recall correctly, the renderings for Comerica Park didn't look too different, and we all know how the reality of that "vision" turned out.

If I may offer comment:

1. The greenery at the bottom of the "plan" rendering looks like a divider wall.

2. Ilitch owns about 40 blocks of property in this area, right? The arena will cover two of these forty. Do we realistically expect the remainder of 38 city blocks to be covered with stores and apartments and offices [[all of which look identical to the same suburban schlock architecture you can find anywhere else in America)? I can't believe no one noticed the enormous surface parking lots at the periphery of the development--how is this in any way "urban"?

3. Let's not heap too much praise on Mr. Ilitch for "redeveloping" the area. It was he, after all, who created the existing moonscape.

4. Oh, but wait. There's a giant Winged Wheel on the roof of the arena, so, YAY!

[mikeg19]

So here's a thought, chime in if you wish.

It's no secret that Mike Illitch's health is shaky to say the least. He just celebrated his 85th birthday. He has been getting lambasted in the media, among preservationists, and the general public and city officials for years on the way he has treated his properties and failed to deliver anything on a grand scale as promised.

Is Mike Illitch's last grand act before his time is up? This project, the way it is proposed, is the largest development since the Renaissance Center was built, and the impact that it has should be tenfold. Has he learned from his mistakes with Comerica Park? It not only looks like it, but it appears he is going to write a wrong by finally building frontage on Woodward and replacing the surface lots.

This, to me, is a legacy project. He is giving the city something that will leave an impact for generations to come.

The biggest thought I'm having is: Does this development put Mr. I on par with what Dan Gilbert has done in the past couple years here? The relationship with the Illitch's has been rocky over the past 10-15 years, and Gilbert has rode in to Detroit on his horse, the white knight. Does this development wash away the negatives over the past decade? Too soon to tell? Maybe. But I know I'll be there on opening night.

[emu steve]

So here's a thought, chime in if you wish.

It's no secret that Mike Illitch's health is shaky to say the least. He just celebrated his 85th birthday. He has been getting lambasted in the media, among preservationists, and the general public and city officials for years on the way he has treated his properties and failed to deliver anything on a grand scale as promised.

Is Mike Illitch's last grand act before his time is up? This project, the way it is proposed, is the largest development since the Renaissance Center was built, and the impact that it has should be tenfold. Has he learned from his mistakes with Comerica Park? It not only looks like it, but it appears he is going to write a wrong by finally building frontage on Woodward and replacing the surface lots.

This, to me, is a legacy project. He is giving the city something that will leave an impact for generations to come.

The biggest thought I'm having is: Does this development put Mr. I on par with what Dan Gilbert has done in the past couple years here? The relationship with the Illitch's has been rocky over the past 10-15 years, and Gilbert has rode in to Detroit on his horse, the white knight. Does this development wash away the negatives over the past decade? Too soon to tell? Maybe. But I know I'll be there on opening night.

I agree this is Mike Ilitch's development legacy as he is advanced in age.

BUT equally important I think Christopher is the man behind this project. I heard his audio describing what he thinks needs and will get done.

He sounded very, very bright.

Do remember, IF Ilitch had built building after building 10 years ago they would have sat empty and been a foolish move.

"Timing, timing, Timing" and "Location, location, location".

The location and time is right!! A world-class arena, M-1, 500+ residential units, etc.

"A man behind the times is unwise. A man AHEAD of the times is a brilliant fool."

In IT we used to have a saying: "The bleeding edge of technology." The one who tries to go first, ahead of the curve, usually bleeds. The one who uses software version 2.0 does better than the one who used 1.0 [[and suffered through it).

[ghettopalmetto]

Do remember, IF Ilitch had built building after building 10 years ago they would have sat empty and been a foolish move.

"Timing, timing, Timing" and "Location, location, location".

The location and time is right!! A world-class arena, M-1, 500+ residential units, etc.

Also, Hundreds of Million$ in FREE, no-strings-attached money. Do you think any of this would be on the table if the Ilitches had to use their own billions/banks/lines of credit? Not when they know they can soak the taxpayers [[again)!

I wholeheartedly disagree with mikeg and emu_steve. This is a family that has sold Little Caesars "pizza" for 50 years. Do you really think they give half a shit about "legacy"?

The Ilitch moonscape isn't being filled with an arena and leaseable space out of the goodness of their hearts. They're taking advantage of a twice-in-a-lifetime ca$h grab. And all they had to do was let their properties go to hell in a handbasket, and play on the emotions and egos of the Detroit Red Wings fanbase. Congratulations, and enjoy your new strip mall--after all, you're paying for it.

[emu steve]

Also, Hundreds of Million$ in FREE, no-strings-attached money. Do you think any of this would be on the table if the Ilitches had to use their own billions/banks/lines of credit? Not when they know they can soak the taxpayers [[again)!

I wholeheartedly disagree with mikeg and emu_steve. This is a family that has sold Little Caesars "pizza" for 50 years. Do you really think they give half a shit about "legacy"?

The Ilitch moonscape isn't being filled with an arena and leaseable space out of the goodness of their hearts. They're taking advantage of a twice-in-a-lifetime ca$h grab. And all they had to do was let their properties go to hell in a handbasket, and play on the emotions and egos of the Detroit Red Wings fanbase. Congratulations, and enjoy your new strip mall--after all, you're paying for it.

I dare say most here and a great majority of Detroit sports fans disagree with you.

[ghettopalmetto]

I dare say most here and a great majority of Detroit sports fans disagree with you.

That's fine by me. A "great majority of Detroit sports fans" can think whatever they like. I'm just calling balls and strikes here.

The truth is, if the Ilitches had begun building apartment buildings ten years ago, they'd be 95% occupied by now. But the DEGC wasn't giving away ca$hola for apartment construction, were they?

[canuck]

And here, I was afraid it would look like a suburban "lifestyle center".

This isn't a bad concept. But bear in mind that it's easy to render greenery and people sitting at cafes. If I recall correctly, the renderings for Comerica Park didn't look too different, and we all know how the reality of that "vision" turned out.

If I may offer comment:

1. The greenery at the bottom of the "plan" rendering looks like a divider wall.

2. Ilitch owns about 40 blocks of property in this area, right? The arena will cover two of these forty. Do we realistically expect the remainder of 38 city blocks to be covered with stores and apartments and offices [[all of which look identical to the same suburban schlock architecture you can find anywhere else in America)? I can't believe no one noticed the enormous surface parking lots at the periphery of the development--how is this in any way "urban"?

3. Let's not heap too much praise on Mr. Ilitch for "redeveloping" the area. It was he, after all, who created the existing moonscape.

4. Oh, but wait. There's a giant Winged Wheel on the roof of the arena, so, YAY!

With all due respect, GP; Illitch got to create gaping holes because nobody stepped in to protect the integrity of downtown architecture. At one point, Detroiters are wont to ask themselves why big capitalists and small property owners and renters alike decided to sack the city, as it were.

How does an Illitch get to own 40 blocks of a city's CBD? All that fallow field laying dormant for a bunch of cars to fill. Wow. I'm impressed. Call in the Russian oligarchs to set things straight maybe.

[emu steve]

That's fine by me. A "great majority of Detroit sports fans" can think whatever they like. I'm just calling balls and strikes here.

The truth is, if the Ilitches had begun building apartment buildings ten years ago, they'd be 95% occupied by now. But the DEGC wasn't giving away ca$hola for apartment construction, were they?

One side note:

In 2008 the country, and especially cities like Detroit [[but also sun belt cities like Vegas, Phoenix, etc. etc.) got hit very, very hard with the Great Recession.

I dare say that there were a few 'lost years' [[maybe as many as five) where time stood still and things which 'could've been' done in 2010 are getting done now or will get done in the next couple year.

[ghettopalmetto]

With all due respect, GP; Illitch got to create gaping holes because nobody stepped in to protect the integrity of downtown architecture. At one point, Detroiters are wont to ask themselves why big capitalists and small property owners and renters alike decided to sack the city, as it were.

How does an Illitch get to own 40 blocks of a city's CBD? All that fallow field laying dormant for a bunch of cars to fill. Wow. I'm impressed. Call in the Russian oligarchs to set things straight maybe.

But people did step in. Folks like Preservation Wayne and the National Trust were steamrolled by George Jackson and the unaccountable DEGC--who handed cash money to the Ilitch family to demolish large swaths of downtown real estate. Additional real estate was GIFTED to the Ilitches by the City of Detroit--for use as surface parking, where they collect upwards of $20 a car for doing *absolutely nothing*.

And now, Detroiters are excited because they're paying Mr. Ilitch to rebuild they same areas they previously paid him to neglect and destroy. And for what?--a privately-owned faux "village" where the Ilitch family sets the rules of formerly public rights-of-way, and gives you choices of tired suburban chain vendors? This is a cause for embarrassment, not excitement.

But hey, like I said...there's a drawing of a giant Winged Wheel on the roof of the arena. So let's go overboard and pretend that this project isn't a complete chunk of shit and raw deal for the people of Detroit. Betcha the streets of Ilitchland will at least be plowed in the winter, though.

[Mackinaw]

I dare say most here and a great majority of Detroit sports fans disagree with you.

The Tigers and Wings are my favorite teams in the whole wide world, and I thank M.I. for good ownership and choosing good managers, but I don't let that cloud my reaction when I am fighting off tumbleweeds and parked cars while walking into a game.

Mikeg, I hope you are right, but what has always scared me is Illitch's design taste. The Fox was one thing-- it was a rehab-- but Comerica Park and Hockeytown and their approach to parking and streetscapes has been, on balance, unattractive. I hope he and his company are changed. The renderings indicate better appreciation of what makes a city a city. I pray for proper execution.

[nain rouge]

Looks pretty good, though I'd like to see old renderings of the Comerica Park project to get a feel for how likely this is to get pulled off.

[artds]

The concept illustrations show the obvious divide btwn city and suburban demographics. I noticed this preoccupying fact in Gilbert's project renderings too in the past.

what does this even mean?

[cman710]

Overall, the design plans exceed my expectations, and I really hope that they come to fruition. This article, however, mentions that there will be some kind of internal streetscape:

Glass covered streetscape: The area between the seating bowl and the outer buildings will be covered by glass to create a “covered via,” or interior streetscape, filled with trees, retail, dining and other amenities. Bridges and walkways will connect the outer buildings to the seating bowl through this covered interior street.

Christopher Ilitch, president and CEO of Ilitch Holdings, said the covered via will be open year-round, not just on game or event days, and could play host to a variety of daytime or nighttime events. Like any good urban street, it will be designed to be walkable, with flexible programming, and to be “a very festive area. ... The net effect is a very energetic, very exciting space,” Ilitch said.

This is a bizarre element to include an otherwise very urban-friendly plan. The "indoor via" sounds to me like an indoor shopping mall made to look like a street. While this could be fantastic in the winter, it will either [[a) take people away from the actual streets outside, harming the atmosphere there, or [[b) end up mostly empty on non-game days.

On the whole, though, this is a small concern because the plan sounds great.

[artds]

For those thinking this project will somehow pressure/motivate the Pistons to move downtown, don't get your hopes up. The Pistons just spent $20 million a couple years ago on renovations/upgrades to the Palace.

[Mackinaw]

Overall, the design plans exceed my expectations, and I really hope that they come to fruition. This article, however, mentions that there will be some kind of internal streetscape:

This is a bizarre element to include an otherwise very urban-friendly plan. The "indoor via" sounds to me like an indoor shopping mall made to look like a street. While this could be fantastic in the winter, it will either [[a) take people away from the actual streets outside, harming the atmosphere there, or [[b) end up mostly empty on non-game days.

On the whole, though, this is a small concern because the plan sounds great.

It's a bit confusing, but it seems to me that the 'deconstructed arena' means that the souvenir stands and concessions will be in out-buildings along a covered alley. Great concept. Perhaps like Ford Field's Hudson Warehouse side. That said, I am not understanding how this works with security and ticketing. If you are supposed to pop out onto the alley for food and gear, and said alley is publicly accessible, are you allowed back in? Will that be onerous?

By covered streets I am guessing something a bit mall-like, or, in John Gallagher's mind [[and I don't particularly blame him, upon close inspection of the renderings), galleria-like. You know, all Milanese and what not This doesn't bother me too much if this galleria is going to constitute the arena concourse. Again, though, some of the assertions that this is going to be public space still kind of make me scratch my head.

[Mackinaw]

For those thinking this project will somehow pressure/motivate the Pistons to move downtown, don't get your hopes up. The Pistons just spent $20 million a couple years ago on renovations/upgrades to the Palace.

Yeah, on one hand, that's not too much money for a pro franchise. On the other hand, they are kind of stuck. I can't think of any other entity that could use the Palace and pay something reasonable. The Pistons would likely need to spin off an entity to book it for concerts and conventions to squeeze out some more value. Realistically, it would likely get occasional events after the new downtown arena opens, but much less than it is currently getting. At this point it's simple cost-recovery versus revenue opportunity. If their lease at the new downtown arena is cost effective, they will be there and they will leave the Palace for touring teenie-bopper band shows and disney on ice-- until that demand eventually dries up and the place becomes a mall.

[401don]

20 million to renovate the Palace sounds like a lot but when 500 million dollar arenas are closed after 30 years it's really only about one year's worth of cost. I don't think large crowds will return to the Palace in the future unless the team is a contender. In the current NBA only about 3-4 teams contend and the rest have to be happy at around .500. I don't think fans will return to the Palace for a .500 team the way they would go to a downtown arena. Not to mention the corporate suites at the Palace are mostly empty. In the long run I think the Pistons end up downtown.