Ilitch announces Huge plans for Red Wings Arena Project - Renderings Released

[TennisAndMath]

P.S. this has to be bad news for that building out in Auburn Hills.

Folks want to be at the newest, state of the art, glitziest, etc. facility.

The Pistons may stay out there but in the next 5 years a lot of the other stuff will move to the new arena.

Why are you so negative? You do realize people in Lansing, Grand Blanc, Birmingham, Rochester Hills, Lapeer and Troy ENJOY getting in and out of the Palace, right? You realize most suburban professionals PREFER just going to a game on a Tuesday, and don't want to deal with heading into Detroit [[for a variety of reasons), or going out to eat or drink before or after? You do realize some people worry about getting their car window smashed or being the victim of a crime, right? This whole us versus them narrative is so off-putting. Everyone in the region hopes this arena project is a success. Unfortunately people like you pray it destroys the burbs or something? It's a very unhealthy and obnoxious pursuit.

[emu steve]

You're extremely thorough in every one of your posts in this thread, yet you don't know the name of these important land owners and claim the most powerful family in Detroit "couldn't make contact" with them. Really?

I'm relying on Gistok's in depth knowledge. I did find one of his posts in the now-dead thread on the arena [[he replied to a post):

"

Originally Posted by 313WX
It's a shame that this won't go behind the Fox Theatre. So much potential there.



I agree 100%... but when you have 3 landowners who are not budging, it is just not possible...

I don't know if Gistok does PMs, but if he does, PM him. It is his information I [[and many others) rely. He has discussed this matter over the last few years I have been on this forum, but it is hard to go through many thousands of posts looking for the 'right' one.

I really don't feel comfortable discussing it more. Gistok really did lay out the detailed reasons including some very unusual circumstances, but, again, it is he, not me, who has the detail.

I can not do justice to the matter.

[TennisAndMath]

Originally Posted by 313WX
It's a shame that this won't go behind the Fox Theatre. So much potential there.

I agree 100%... but when you have 3 landowners who are not budging, it is just not possible...

I don't know if Gistok does PMs, but if he does, PM him. It is his information I [[and many others) rely. He has discussed this matter over the last few years I have been on this forum, but it is hard to go through many thousands of posts looking for the 'right' one.

I don't buy it. I think behind the Fox was nothing more than a smoke screen to buy up the Woodward & Temple/I-75 property. Behind Fox would do nothing but make MGM [[and possibly Corktown) more attractive.

[Gistok]

Here ya go emu steve.... from the DYES archives... from June 27, 2013. Since most people wouldn't be expected to know the obscure name of "Freida Alibri"... one could hardly be expected to do a search of the DYES archives of her name....

• Yes... the Freida Alibri heirs, owner of 5 parcels near Columbia and Clifford were the major holdouts. Mike Ilitch got their property in the initial west of Woodward Comerica Park plan with Eminent Domain... but with the move to the east of Woodward site, the Alibri heirs fought in court to get their land back... but then later balked at paying the increased city taxes at the over million dollars that Ilitch originally payed them... which they later gave back when they got their property back. They have been the MAJOR, although not only holdouts for the west Foxtown site [[other owners were on the periphery... but the 5 Alibri parcels were smack in the middle of the west Foxtown site near Columbia and Clifford."

[Gistok]

Sorry TennisAndMath.... you need to do your homework better [[or have spent more time on this forum)... in order to get the facts straight. There was one poster here who did an entire Google map of all the Ilitch owned property both in West Foxtown and lower Midtown. And there were FAR MORE Ilitch owned properties in the West Foxtown area... until it became obvious that 1) Eminent Domain was not an option... and 2) the holdouts in West Foxtown weren't budging....

[TennisAndMath]

Temple Hotel owner got a few million, right? Were the Alibri clan holding out for $100M? Get real. If Ilitch truly wanted their property he would have it. Smoke screen.

[rb336]

Why are you so negative? You do realize people in Lansing, Grand Blanc, Birmingham, Rochester Hills, Lapeer and Troy ENJOY getting in and out of the Palace, right? You realize most suburban professionals PREFER just going to a game on a Tuesday, and don't want to deal with heading into Detroit [[for a variety of reasons), or going out to eat or drink before or after? You do realize some people worry about getting their car window smashed or being the victim of a crime, right? This whole us versus them narrative is so off-putting. Everyone in the region hopes this arena project is a success. Unfortunately people like you pray it destroys the burbs or something? It's a very unhealthy and obnoxious pursuit.

yeah, that's why the Pistons games are all sold out, even when they are not having a great year. Wait - that's the Wings.

The only reason bands choose the Palace is that it is newer. Heck, I bet there are acts out there who will pick the new arena just to see their name/logo on the roof

[Gistok]

Our old poster Verifiable [[doesn't post here much anymore)... was a proverbial Encyclopedia of Ilitch Holdings parcel mapping. Here's one of his blogs to that effect....
http://www.theverifiabletruth.com/20...s-present.html

Verifiable's entire list of over 100 parcels is no longer available for viewing....

[emu steve]

Here ya go emu steve.... from the DYES archives... from June 27, 2013. Since most people wouldn't be expected to know the obscure name of "Freida Alibri"... one could hardly be expected to do a search of the DYES archives of her name....

• Yes... the Freida Alibri heirs, owner of 5 parcels near Columbia and Clifford were the major holdouts. Mike Ilitch got their property in the initial west of Woodward Comerica Park plan with Eminent Domain... but with the move to the east of Woodward site, the Alibri heirs fought in court to get their land back... but then later balked at paying the increased city taxes at the over million dollars that Ilitch originally payed them... which they later gave back when they got their property back. They have been the MAJOR, although not only holdouts for the west Foxtown site [[other owners were on the periphery... but the 5 Alibri parcels were smack in the middle of the west Foxtown site near Columbia and Clifford."

Thanks!!! The details were very complicated. I thought I also remembered an owner might have mental issues or something which made trying to make a legal deal a very challenging issue.

Bottom line: I remember my reaction: "It ain't going to happen."

I then supported the Woodward/Fisher option. I got my wish. I am happy.

[Gistok]

Temple Hotel owner got a few million, right? Were the Alibri clan holding out for $100M? Get real. If Ilitch truly wanted their property he would have it. Smoke screen.

Well lets see.... Ilitch owns all but about 10 parcels in the West Foxtown footprint... so does it make sense for him switch over to a new location after he's already purchased over 90% of what he needed in the old West Foxtown location?? Not unless he was at an impass....

[antongast]

Christopher Ilitch responds to the "Doubting Thomases", "Debbie Downers" and other naysayers...

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...-had-wait-hurt-

“But we had to wait and that hurt. It took us 15 years to accumulate the property so we can achieve this transformative project,” Ilitch said. “Now we really have been unharnessed, unleashed,” he said.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz387dSWWZv

This was essentially Gistok's view that the Ilitches had a very, very difficult time trying to assemble the parcels necessary.

My recollection is that the Ilitches planned on an arena BEHIND THE FOX but it failed because of a few holdout owners, including one with a very difficult family trust.

Next, they started assembling parcels along Woodward and near the MC Casino with the hope that one would work out.

One point which hasn't been made: The Ilitches HAVE A VESTED INTEREST in building up their land near the MC Casino.

So he's openly admitting what should have been obvious to everyone: the Ilitch family has spent the last 15 years deliberately and systematically reducing the quality of life in this neighborhood so that they could purchase more land for less money.

How anyone could possibly find fault with these priorities is beyond me. Ooh, look at the shiny renderings!

[Gistok]

So he's openly admitting what should have been obvious to everyone: the Ilitch family has spent the last 15 years deliberately and systematically reducing the quality of life in this neighborhood so that they could purchase more land for less money.

How anyone could possibly find fault with these priorities is beyond me. Ooh, look at the shiny renderings!

Gotta agree with you there.... what's worse is that he decimated all the buildings in the West Foxtown site [[that weren't already parking)... except for the Moose Lodge, which previous owner [[Blair McGowan) stipulated could not be razed by Ilitch before he sold him it. So there was a perfectly nice historic 3 story building on Grand River [[refurbished in the previous 10 years)... and several other smaller buildings in the West Foxtown site that now no longer exist...

[Hypestyles]

Will the Motor City Casino stay put? it's kind of at the periphery of the identified casino zone.. not much else in the immediate surrounding area as far as entertainment/attractions..

[Mackinaw]

Why are you so negative? You do realize people in Lansing, Grand Blanc, Birmingham, Rochester Hills, Lapeer and Troy ENJOY getting in and out of the Palace, right? You realize most suburban professionals PREFER just going to a game on a Tuesday, and don't want to deal with heading into Detroit [[for a variety of reasons), or going out to eat or drink before or after? You do realize some people worry about getting their car window smashed or being the victim of a crime, right? This whole us versus them narrative is so off-putting. Everyone in the region hopes this arena project is a success. Unfortunately people like you pray it destroys the burbs or something? It's a very unhealthy and obnoxious pursuit.

LBPatterson, is that you???? Defensive no? EMU Steve ain't negative, and here he's just raising conversation topics [[like 800 per minute, but that's why we love 'em). It will be objective reality come 2017 that the better arena and the better location to watch any major arena event will be at the corner of Woodward and Henry. Hell, I even prefer JLA to Palace. I avoid the Palace because it's just such a schlep for us 6 and Mack Ave. professionals. Cmon man don't you knowwwww, there are people south of 696 [[try: majority of the region) that don't wanna go all the way up there on a Tuesday night, where they will literally have nothing to do beforehand [[outlet shopping, anyone?) except fight with traffic, and can't have more than a drink at the event because they gotta long distance home? [[P.s. nobody is forcing these clean liven' professionals you speak of to go out crunkin' before and after a Tigers game…that's optional…you're more than free to grab a white castle on the way down, park the car, attend, and leave, but at least you have the option).

I mean, I guess it comes down to whose complaints are more valid, and whose convenience more valuable, under your line of thinking. But if we're gonna go down that road, then that niche crowd of "professional people" in Lapeer can f'ing deal with their f'ing remote ass location [[honestly, where is Lapeer?) when the 'Stons and even fricken Disney on Ice move their asses downtown to a better venue in the center of the region. My sadness about their plight will be offset by my happiness for the fact that people on the southern and western edges of the metro can access NBA games more easily on a Tuesday night. Fair and square for all exurbanites! And Ann Arborites too!

Smashed windows eh? Maybe your friends are the people I see parking on abandoned lots in Brush Park, thinking that the con man waiving them in actually owns the place? I've actually never even seen smashed windows in the downtown area after an event, and I always park on the street, too.

[emu steve]

LBPatterson, is that you???? Defensive no? EMU Steve ain't negative, and here he's just raising conversation topics [[like 800 per minute, but that's why we love 'em).

I got optimism on steroids but I have company.

Here is the Detnews. They caught it too!! The emphasis is mine but the words belong to the News...

"With the M1 rail line coming, the rehab of a score of office buildings by Quicken Loans’ Dan Gilbert, the discovery by an enthusiastic young creative class of downtown, Midtown and Corktown, and the steady progress in resolving the bankruptcy, this is already an exciting time in Detroit.

That excitement level just increased tenfold with the first good look at the Ilitch plan."

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz38Ahu2dUm


EDIT: [[from the Freep)...

And Daniel Loepp, president and CEO of Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan, echoed that.
“When people in the future tell the story of Detroit’s comeback, they will begin with a pioneer and visionary named Mike Ilitch. This is yet another game-changing investment in Detroit made by the Ilitch family,” Loepp said.

[ghettopalmetto]

I got optimism on steroids but I have company.

Here is the Detnews. They caught it too!! The emphasis is mine but the words belong to the News...

"With the M1 rail line coming, the rehab of a score of office buildings by Quicken Loans’ Dan Gilbert, the discovery by an enthusiastic young creative class of downtown, Midtown and Corktown, and the steady progress in resolving the bankruptcy, this is already an exciting time in Detroit.

That excitement level just increased tenfold with the first good look at the Ilitch plan."

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz38Ahu2dUm


EDIT: [[from the Freep)...

And Daniel Loepp, president and CEO of Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan, echoed that.
“When people in the future tell the story of Detroit’s comeback, they will begin with a pioneer and visionary named Mike Ilitch. This is yet another game-changing investment in Detroit made by the Ilitch family,” Loepp said.

And all Ilitch had to do was destroy half of downtown Detroit over a period of 25 years, and collect government handouts to do so. Developing a handful of the 40-some blocks of Ilitch-made moonscape is hardly cause for celebration. That guy has been the biggest welfare queen in the City of Detroit, and we applaud him for it?

There sure is nothing like manufactured excitement, is there?

[Honky Tonk]

And Daniel Loepp, president and CEO of Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan, echoed that.
“When people in the future tell the story of Detroit’s comeback, they will begin with a pioneer and visionary named Mike Ilitch. This is yet another game-changing investment in Detroit made by the Ilitch family,” Loepp said.

There goes my breakfast.

[canuck]

There goes my breakfast.

Whatwuzzit the reinterpretation of a famous daytime soap by Carol Burnett: "As the Stomach Turns". Yeah.

[EL Jimbo]

Why are you so negative? You do realize people in Lansing, Grand Blanc, Birmingham, Rochester Hills, Lapeer and Troy ENJOY getting in and out of the Palace, right? You realize most suburban professionals PREFER just going to a game on a Tuesday, and don't want to deal with heading into Detroit [[for a variety of reasons), or going out to eat or drink before or after? You do realize some people worry about getting their car window smashed or being the victim of a crime, right? This whole us versus them narrative is so off-putting. Everyone in the region hopes this arena project is a success. Unfortunately people like you pray it destroys the burbs or something? It's a very unhealthy and obnoxious pursuit.

Um...NOBODY enjoys getting in and out of the Palace unless they are masochists. I live in the Lansing area and I think the Palace sucks. The arena in and of itself is great. However, when you start and end the experience sitting in traffic because the area was never designed to handle it and there is NOTHING to do around it.

Also, let's face it. The people who are scared of Detroit are literally a dieing breed. The 30 something and younger crowd has no fear of heading downtown for an event. Those are the people who are driving the investment in downtown entertainment. Not the scarred old-timers whose numbers dwindle daily.

[emu steve]

Why are you so negative? You do realize people in Lansing, Grand Blanc, Birmingham, Rochester Hills, Lapeer and Troy ENJOY getting in and out of the Palace, right? You realize most suburban professionals PREFER just going to a game on a Tuesday, and don't want to deal with heading into Detroit [[for a variety of reasons), or going out to eat or drink before or after? You do realize some people worry about getting their car window smashed or being the victim of a crime, right? This whole us versus them narrative is so off-putting. Everyone in the region hopes this arena project is a success. Unfortunately people like you pray it destroys the burbs or something? It's a very unhealthy and obnoxious pursuit.

I'm about to bow out of this thread. Most anything I can offer has been said by others or myself.

Sorry for being so negative on the Palace. I just got caught up in the mini-civil war going on between OC and Detroit. There is some Detroit h8ting going on in this forum.

One of the problems in a slow-growth area, like Southeast Michigan, is that much gain is at a zero-sum game.

For decades [[!) OC's gain came at the expense of Detroit. Now a lot of Detroit's gain will come at the expense of OC. [[e.g., businesses which moved into downtown Detroit and, of course, the Lions with their Detroit-OC-Detroit moves, and maybe the Pistons, in time).

As other have mentioned, it would be nice if Southeast Michigan would grow faster in terms of population and commercial activity so that Detroit can grow, OC can grow, etc. and everyone can taste the fruits of growth.

[EL Jimbo]

Let's not forget that it isn't that the Ilitch family let West Foxtown sit there for lack of effort. They've been trying to put something there for 20 years.

The original plan for Comerica Park was for it to be in the West Foxtown area with a rough geographic boundary of Montcalm, Park, Adams, and Cass. They quietly started acquiring land, but once they ran into some property owners who were asking exorbitant prices they were able to acquire enough land on the opposite side of Woodward where Comerica ended up.

Then when the discussion for the new Red Wings Arena came around, they tried again. And the same property owners remained just as unreasonable. Now, they are left holding the bag. There isn't going to be another stadium opportunity to come around. Now, they will either have to develop their property or sell it to someone who will.

The only difference between 2000 and now is that now there is actually demand for something to be built. To me, that's the lasting legacy of Comerica Park and Ford Field. Did we get all the immediate development that was promised from them? Not even close. However, they got people back downtown. Even if it was for a few hours at a time. It got people comfortable with the neighborhood and it started the chain reaction we are seeing today. Dan Gilbert's investments don't happen without those two stadiums.

I applaud the Ilitch family for having such a grand vision. Now the onus is on them to follow through. I'm skeptical because of some of their past, but I'm also seeing this as the old man wanting to leave a permanent legacy on the city and his son trying to make his mark as he fully takes over the family business.

[TennisAndMath]

Um...NOBODY enjoys getting in and out of the Palace unless they are masochists. I live in the Lansing area and I think the Palace sucks. The arena in and of itself is great. However, when you start and end the experience sitting in traffic because the area was never designed to handle it and there is NOTHING to do around it.

Also, let's face it. The people who are scared of Detroit are literally a dying breed. The 30 something and younger crowd has no fear of heading downtown for an event. Those are the people who are driving the investment in downtown entertainment. Not the scarred old-timers whose numbers dwindle daily.

The Palace is an incredibly convenient venue for us. We gave up my Pistons season tickets [[we had since it opened) because they're terrible, the crowd became annoying and it was a waste of time. We still attend all of the major concerts.

Your "nobody is scared" is more of the same BS coded language, which suggests anyone "afraid" of Detroit is an old racist. [[And in 2003, anyone against the war in Iraq was anti-American, right?) People should always be on high alert in Detroit. If they're not, it just highlights the suburban arrogance that everything is always OK because they're wealthy, savvy and super-smart. Nobody would dare touch them! I saw this arrogance both summers I spent abroad in college and on various trips oversees. Affluent and naive young Americans think some sort of bubble or shield protects them wherever they go. Sketchy district in Paris, ghettos of Thailand... most violent major US city? No problem, we're likable Americans!

If you don't think anyone is scared of Detroit, I'm wondering why no Detroit gas stations report an uptick in revenue when games are going on. Wonder why those brave "30-somethings and younger" aren't stopping for snacks or fuel.

[Novine]

What short memories people have. After Ilitch acquired the Tigers, he started making noise about moving the team to the suburbs because city and state leaders didn't rubberstamp his idea for massive subsidies for a new stadium. Whether Ilitch was serious about his plans to move the team or was doing it to extort more taxpayer dollars, it's clear that his loyalties to the city don't run any deeper than his love for the almighty dollar.

[mwilbert]

Your "nobody is scared" is more of the same BS coded language, which suggests anyone "afraid" of Detroit is an old racist. [[And in 2003, anyone against the war in Iraq was anti-American, right?) People should always be on high alert in Detroit. If they're not, it just highlights the suburban arrogance that everything is always OK because they're wealthy, savvy and super-smart. Nobody would dare touch them! I saw this arrogance both summers I spent abroad in college and on various trips oversees. Affluent and naive young Americans think some sort of bubble or shield protects them wherever they go. Sketchy district in Paris, ghettos of Thailand... most violent major US city? No problem, we're likable Americans!

If you don't think anyone is scared of Detroit, I'm wondering why no Detroit gas stations report an uptick in revenue when games are going on. Wonder why those brave "30-somethings and younger" aren't stopping for snacks or fuel.

I don't think you are entirely wrong, but I think you are wrong for the purposes of this discussion. It isn't that some younger people aren't apprehensive about Detroit, or that some younger people avoid Detroit gas stations, or whatever. It is that it mostly doesn't stop them from coming downtown and doing things in Detroit. I don't know whether that is because they think they are protected by a magic bubble, or if they are realistic about what the odds are of anything happening to them, but regardless that seems to be the case.

And do you ever hear reports of upticks in revenue at gas stations anywhere for any event? I don't. I don't think most people would consider it to be newsworthy. I would also say that there aren't exactly a lot of gas stations downtown, and if you were downtown, why would you stop at a gas station for a snack? Wouldn't you get one before you got in your car? Maybe you have to go to a gas station to get a snack after you leave the Palace, but that is because it is in the middle of nowhere.

[ghettopalmetto]

Let's not forget that it isn't that the Ilitch family let West Foxtown sit there for lack of effort. They've been trying to put something there for 20 years.

The original plan for Comerica Park was for it to be in the West Foxtown area with a rough geographic boundary of Montcalm, Park, Adams, and Cass. They quietly started acquiring land, but once they ran into some property owners who were asking exorbitant prices they were able to acquire enough land on the opposite side of Woodward where Comerica ended up.

Then when the discussion for the new Red Wings Arena came around, they tried again. And the same property owners remained just as unreasonable. Now, they are left holding the bag.

"Exorbitant", "Unreasonable" = anyone other than the City of Detroit, who sells Ilitch valuable downtown real estate for $1, if not outright gifting it to him.

You don't need 40 blocks to build a hockey arena. You don't need 40 blocks to build a baseball stadium. A quick look at Google Maps makes this pretty freaking obvious.

Even if the entirety of the renderings reaches fruition, Ilitch will have still destroyed more property than he built. And at incredible taxpayer expense for both.

There isn't going to be another stadium opportunity to come around. Now, they will either have to develop their property or sell it to someone who will.

No, they don't. If Mike Ilitch has proven anything, it's his incredible stamina and perseverance in sitting on vacant property.

The only difference between 2000 and now is that now there is actually demand for something to be built. To me, that's the lasting legacy of Comerica Park and Ford Field.

Is there a Demand Meter in Downtown Detroit that I just can't see? How does a government-subsidized project indicate the presence of demand? This arena project isn't driven by demand [[unless you count Ilitch's demand for Free Ca$h). The new arena is driven by an expiring lease at Joe Louis, and Olympia's desire to vacuum more taxpayer funds into their pockets.

Did we get all the immediate development that was promised from them? Not even close.

When the Wooden Rabbit doesn't work, you build a Wooden Badger. Glad to see Detroit is in the competent hands of Monty Python.

However, they got people back downtown. Even if it was for a few hours at a time. It got people comfortable with the neighborhood and it started the chain reaction we are seeing today.

You know what else gets people downtown? Apartments. Offices. Basically anything other than empty lots.

Dan Gilbert's investments don't happen without those two stadiums.

Pure speculation on your part.

I applaud the Ilitch family for having such a grand vision.

The chutzpah to bleed the City dry??? How ballsy!