Ilitch announces Huge plans for Red Wings Arena Project - Renderings Released

**bailey** · July-21-14, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

I'm pretty sure you said this about the M-1 tram...of course what did you think about Book Cadillac, Broderick Tower, Compuware?

I have been very critical of the M1 RAIL plan. Why? because its a trolley not the rail it was sold as, it's stupid, it's being designed by people that are ignoring experts, and it's what? 1/3 it's original size and will be completed 5-6 years late? It should be no where near as complicated, but this region has morons at the helm.

But I think you're missing my point here, I don't think that public incentives should never be used, I just think we should stop giving it to Olympia because of their ATROCIOUS record in this area.

Anyways...just because this may or may not get built doesn't mean it's not a bold plan. This is a bold plan. What did I hear? The largest building undertaking since the Renaissance Center? 40 years of scaled back projects or nothing, then this!

and you think this won't be scaled back in the same fashion? there is NO real commitment from anyone to do ANYTHING other than the stadium, parking and some nice landscaping. There is a commitment to think about it at some later point and time.

Olympia and Red Wings team offices will be connected to the arena, as will apartments, restaurants, retail, parking garages and other to-be-decided development.

This plan is as bold as announcing a "plan" to build a Burj Tower on the Hudson's block....with nothing but the drawings to back it up.

I'm pretty left of center but believe in the capitalist system in most instances. Many people cry, "let the private sector build it!". Now that the private sector wants to build something, we are dispraging it. I think some of you are pissy because it's an interesting and engaging plan coming from an unlikely source.

I'm critical of this plan not because there is public money. I'm for public/private investments like this. I'm less than enthusiastic about it because the people behind it have a pretty fucking awful track record with following through on the "district" part of their "stadium district" plans. I'm disgusted that the guy most repsonsible for detroit being a wasteland of surface parking for a generation is not being told to fuck right off with his demands for subsidy. And I'm disgusted at the City for letting Olympia get away with it. . What I'd like to see is a requirement that the "other stuff" in this proposal be completed prior to public dollar number one being spent on the stadium or the parking decks.

Like a pharoah building a pyramid.

Exactly, perfect analogy. Like a pyramid, the stadium surrounded by parking decks will be an enormous, largely empty edifice with limited functionality.

Look, I like that the wings are moving out of JLA. I hope that gets ripped down and more of the riverfront is opened up. I hope each and every part of this plan is built and more. I'm just saying, if past performance and past claims of this very same organization are taken into account, all we're going to get is another barn surrounded by parking.

**rondinjp** · July-21-14, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't buildings/restaurants/bars/stadiums/malls/casinos, well basically every place you go, designed to "keep your money inside his building"? Kinda the purpose of going to a destination. You could say that Dan Gilbert is trying to keep your money in his businesses and venues. Maybe that's why these guys are successful business owners.

Don't get me wrong Ghetto, I'm not trying to jump on your back, as I'm sure we are all skeptical regarding any Illitch developments, but for all intensive purposes, it appears that this development is legit for what they are proposing. I don't think they are promising anything pie-in-the-sky for $50 bucks where we can say it ain't gonna happen.

While I'm very excited with the stadium renderings, I have to admit that I am a little skeptical on the other disclosed "plans." The same exact plans have been proposed/disclosed by the Ilitch's in the past and have never come through to fruition.

http://tinyurl.com/ocs55s4

http://tinyurl.com/ok47yms

http://tinyurl.com/ppyb5fo

Hopefully this time it is for real and the Ilitch's really were just hamstrung by not having gathered all the property together.

**1953** · July-21-14, 01:07 PM

I'm just glad they intend to put the Statler back up, per the rending.

**dtowncitylover** · July-21-14, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by gnome

This entire complex reminds me of Trapper's Alley, AutoWorld and any number of other manufactured downtowns. It is another Big Idea that will not work as planned. Just like the RenCen and it's unrealized rollout of development along the riverfront. While the RenCen is much better since GM took it over, it still lacks any real shopping and suffers from unimagined vacancies.

In Dtroit top down solutions rarely work. Small businesses, where the owners have real skin in the game, is the only way to build a community. The least effective way will be to have a garishly designed entertainment district all built by public funds for private profit.

The problem with the RenCen is infamous. It was built away from everything. This new arena/district is being build as a connection between two vital and vibrant areas of town. Trappers Alley also suffered from isolation and AutoWorld was in Flint, need I say more?

But I agree, small businesses do help create a community, but they lack the capital to make huge improvements to such a drastic place like the CBD. Shinola or Avalon aren't gonna build a new urban landscape, they need much more capital. But they can only stand to benefit from new residents and businesses.

**dtowncitylover** · July-21-14, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by rondinjp

While I'm very excited with the stadium renderings, I have to admit that I am a little skeptical on the other disclosed "plans." The same exact plans have been proposed/disclosed by the Ilitch's in the past and have never come through to fruition.

http://tinyurl.com/ocs55s4

http://tinyurl.com/ok47yms

http://tinyurl.com/ppyb5fo

Hopefully this time it is for real and the Ilitch's really were just hamstrung by not having gathered all the property together.

What he proposed then is pretty much the same he proposing now, but without one thing: downtown and midtown are coming back. Downtown was dead in 2000 and no one was investing. Now we have not only the Illitches, but also Glibert, Penske, etc doing their thing. They weren't around 15 years ago.

**Mackinaw** · July-21-14, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Christopher Ilitch responds to the "Doubting Thomases", "Debbie Downers" and other naysayers...

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...-had-wait-hurt-

“But we had to wait and that hurt. It took us 15 years to accumulate the property so we can achieve this transformative

project,” Ilitch said. “Now we really have been unharnessed, unleashed,” he said.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz387dSWWZv

This was essentially Gistok's view that the Ilitches had a very, very difficult time trying to assemble the parcels necessary.

My recollection is that the Ilitches planned on an arena BEHIND THE FOX but it failed because of a few holdout owners, including one with a very difficult family trust.

Next, they started assembling parcels along Woodward and near the MC Casino with the hope that one would work out.

One point which hasn't been made: The Ilitches HAVE A VESTED INTEREST in building up their land near the MC Casino.

Wow, what fluff. Yet at the same time, it actually says something that the mainstream press made him answer that question. It shows that the Illitch land-grabbing and growth-stunting activities are on the general public's radar. I really don't think that, when they built Comerica, this was a mainstream awareness. And honestly, it's been post-2000 that they've really gotten the bad rap, due to all the unkept promises and their blighting of the west and north of Fox areas.

So here we are, their sins are public knowledge, and they actually WANT to clean up their mess. The public awareness might actually affect them a little bit, and I am sure it motivates their representations that several of these sub-developments will go up alongside the arena ASAP. I think that alone is great.

Though they aren't sufficiently quoting other voices in the community, I give the newspapers credit for at least putting this issue out there [[and they even asked about the two hotel buildings on Park). Just the very nature of these crazy renderings being front page news will create a public awareness and consciousness that will make it hard for Olympia to get away with murder going forward, especially since now even the regular Joe knows that the central regions of Detroit are growing again. In addition, you have the pace being set by Gilbert, and all of the positive vibes and national press he's engendered for himself [[fixed a bevy of old buildings and moved a very large company, with more employees and more national impact than Little Caesers, downtown).... there is a lot of evidence and a lot of changed circumstances to suggest that maybe, just maybe, things will pan out differently.

Whether the other developments will be attractive is a big question mark, and we'll all need to reserve judgment. But we can be fairly certain they'll be more attractive, and will serve Detroit's urbanism better, than gravel lots.

**ghettopalmetto** · July-21-14, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

The problem with the RenCen is infamous. It was built away from everything. This new arena/district is being build as a connection between two vital and vibrant areas of town. Trappers Alley also suffered from isolation and AutoWorld was in Flint, need I say more?

But I agree, small businesses do help create a community, but they lack the capital to make huge improvements to such a drastic place like the CBD. Shinola or Avalon aren't gonna build a new urban landscape, they need much more capital. But they can only stand to benefit from new residents and businesses.

Only in Detroit does a new superblock monolith "connect" places. What does the arena connect?--I-75 to the Ilitch Parkingplex? Your wallet to Olympia's bank?

You want to improve the urban landscape in the CBD? Stop giving property to Mike Ilitch. Start demanding your government spend its money on landscaping instead of handing it to Mike Ilitch.

**DetroitPlanner** · July-21-14, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

The problem with the RenCen is infamous. It was built away from everything. This new arena/district is being build as a connection between two vital and vibrant areas of town. Trappers Alley also suffered from isolation and AutoWorld was in Flint, need I say more?

But I agree, small businesses do help create a community, but they lack the capital to make huge improvements to such a drastic place like the CBD. Shinola or Avalon aren't gonna build a new urban landscape, they need much more capital. But they can only stand to benefit from new residents and businesses.

Please explain how you can consider Trapper's Alley isolated? The first couple of floors had fairly good occupancy. Two things doomed it: Festival Marketplaces were largely a fad sold the same way as "the Music Man" sold instruments or "the Trainman" sold monorails in Springfield. The other thing that doomed it was assuming that 5 floors of retail could survive. People had little interest in shopping for knick-nacks if they had to put effort into it. At best festival market places were gathering spots, not needed shopping centers. Nearly all of these places have failed outside of a few on the East Coast where they served multiple purposes.

**Spartan** · July-21-14, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

What he proposed then is pretty much the same he proposing now, but without one thing: downtown and midtown are coming back. Downtown was dead in 2000 and no one was investing. Now we have not only the Illitches, but also Glibert, Penske, etc doing their thing. They weren't around 15 years ago.

Not to mention the development of the streetcar, which will be helpful in attracting investors as well.

Were these plans ever pushed to the point this one is? Saying you want an entertainment district is much different than planning, diagramming, securing funding, and issuing a public announcement for one. I was too young during the Comerica development to know much about these earlier ideas.

**Spartan** · July-21-14, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

Dan Gilbert's done more for downtown Detroit in the past 5 years than Ilitch has and he did it all without a multi-page spread in the Freep of his "bold plan". I get why people are enamored of "bold plans" but great cities aren't generally the result of someone's "bold plan". It's the incremental progress that happens building by building and block by block that has turned around downtown Detroit.

Gilbert has indeed done more in the last 5 years, but he's had TONS of multi-page spreads about his bold plans. Gilbert is the king of hype and PA. If this were Gilbert's project he would have had a press conference and more for an announcement like this.

**Novine** · July-21-14, 01:50 PM

I don't recall seeing a "bold plan" from Gilbert. He's talked about his projects and he's done them. But I don't remember that he's following any particular development plan for downtown, which isn't a bad thing. As for his press conferences, the difference between him and Ilitch is that he actually delivers on his promises.

**dtowncitylover** · July-21-14, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Only in Detroit does a new superblock monolith "connect" places. What does the arena connect?--I-75 to the Ilitch Parkingplex? Your wallet to Olympia's bank?

You want to improve the urban landscape in the CBD? Stop giving property to Mike Ilitch. Start demanding your government spend its money on landscaping instead of handing it to Mike Ilitch.

Well I'm so glad blocks of unused land and parking deserts is also now considered connected as well. But the government can't do those things because they are bankrupt, so now we are letting the private sector do it but we're getting pissy that they are doing something!

Woodward from Jefferson to the Blvd. could be our Yonge or Broadway, but empty lots and abandoned buildings aren't getting us very far.

**Hypestyles** · July-21-14, 02:18 PM

so where do people apply for the "jobs" available?

**dtowncitylover** · July-21-14, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

I have been very critical of the M1 RAIL plan. Why? because its a trolley not the rail it was sold as, it's stupid, it's being designed by people that are ignoring experts, and it's what? 1/3 it's original size and will be completed 5-6 years late? It should be no where near as complicated, but this region has morons at the helm.

M-1 Rail was never DTOGS, which was all the way to 8 Mile, so get that through your head. M-1 was always from Jeff to Blvd. M-1 rail is a streetcar, trolley, or tram. Whatever word you want too describe it that's fine but they're all synonyms of the same thing and can be found in systems from Melbourne, Australia to Orleans, France and are not at all bad systems.

I'm sorry we couldn't build you a metro, but this Detroit and while I hate to say "let's take what we can get", sometimes, and especially with transit, we have to start small.

**Spartan** · July-21-14, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

I don't recall seeing a "bold plan" from Gilbert. He's talked about his projects and he's done them. But I don't remember that he's following any particular development plan for downtown, which isn't a bad thing. As for his press conferences, the difference between him and Ilitch is that he actually delivers on his promises.

One example:
http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...n-paradise.php

Can't disagree with the last statement.

**emu steve** · July-21-14, 04:20 PM

Good to hear that Dan Gilbert enthusiastically supports Ilitches' plans.

http://www.mlive.com/business/detroi...l#incart_river

**motz** · July-21-14, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Spartan

One example:
http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...n-paradise.php

Can't disagree with the last statement.

I will stay out of the Red Wings debate but will chime in on this: Gilbert's 'thing' is saying "PRESS CONFERENCE WEDNESDAY! WE HAVE 4 MAJOR RESTAURANTS OPENING UP AND BIIIIGGGG NEWS!" Wednesday rolls around and we find out it's a salad shop, a bagel joint, a glorified Chuck-E-Cheese and another 'fast-casual' concept. His announcements are generally a let down in the end though.

Still glad he's taken charge and pushed this out, but lots of us have skepticism due to hearing things [[think Cadillac Place or whatever that huge development was supposed to be along Cadillac Place) and seeing nothing to very little ACTUALLY accomplished.

**Spartan** · July-21-14, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by motz

I will stay out of the Red Wings debate but will chime in on this: Gilbert's 'thing' is saying "PRESS CONFERENCE WEDNESDAY! WE HAVE 4 MAJOR RESTAURANTS OPENING UP AND BIIIIGGGG NEWS!" Wednesday rolls around and we find out it's a salad shop, a bagel joint, a glorified Chuck-E-Cheese and another 'fast-casual' concept. His announcements are generally a let down in the end though.

Still glad he's taken charge and pushed this out, but lots of us have skepticism due to hearing things [[think Cadillac Place or whatever that huge development was supposed to be along Cadillac Place) and seeing nothing to very little ACTUALLY accomplished.

Gilbert:
1. Hype
2. Announcement
3. Disappointment
4. Construction
5. Excitement

Ilitch:
1. Hype
2. Announcement
3. Excitement
4. Destruction
5. Disappointment

**Detroitnerd** · July-21-14, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

so where do people apply for the "jobs" available?

I doubt that there will be that many "new jobs." Most of them will likely be the same jobs that were at JLA, only non-union and lower pay and benefits.

**Detroitnerd** · July-21-14, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Well I'm so glad blocks of unused land and parking deserts is also now considered connected as well. But the government can't do those things because they are bankrupt, so now we are letting the private sector do it but we're getting pissy that they are doing something!

Woodward from Jefferson to the Blvd. could be our Yonge or Broadway, but empty lots and abandoned buildings aren't getting us very far.

Well, you should talk to the guy who owns most of that wasteland. Hint: His initials are M.I.

TennisAndMath · July-21-14, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

My recollection is that the Ilitches planned on an arena BEHIND THE FOX but it failed because of a few holdout owners, including one with a very difficult family trust.

This sounds like BS. Who is this family that owns Foxtown property they wanted? If this is true, it's pretty easy to find out via land records, instead of being ambiguous with "a very difficult family." What would possibly motivate the family to hold out for longer? Foxtown neighborhood won't see interest like this ever again.

I think the plan all along was Woodward & Temple/I-75, with the goal of creating synergy between Comerica Park, Wings Arena and MotorCity. The other two rumored locations were nothing more than smoke screens, imo.

**ABetterDetroit** · July-21-14, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

One side note:

In 2008 the country, and especially cities like Detroit [[but also sun belt cities like Vegas, Phoenix, etc. etc.) got hit very, very hard with the Great Recession.

I dare say that there were a few 'lost years' [[maybe as many as five) where time stood still and things which 'could've been' done in 2010 are getting done now or will get done in the next couple year.

AND for five years before that we were "the one state recession" damn near lost a entire decade.

**emu steve** · July-21-14, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by TennisAndMath

Who is this family that owns property they wanted? If this is true, it's pretty easy to find out via land records.

Gistok has posed it a number of times. It isn't an easy name to remember, but he posted it. Maybe something like Abrieu [[sp). Part of it also might have been that the parcels are owned by family trust and there were problems making contact with the owners of the trust.

My recollection is that the situation was more than simply upping the offer. That the situation was essentially impossible.

If I remember correctly, the missing parcels would be in the dead center of the arena. It would have been impossible to work around the missing parcels.

**313WX** · July-21-14, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

AND for five years before that we were "the one state recession" damn near lost a entire decade.

We easily have lost 3 generations of Detroiters so far [[starting with Gen. X and ending with Gen. Z).

Don't forget as well the unprecedented amount of economic flight Detroit experienced in the 70s and 80s, and the investment Detroit missed out on to its suburbs during the 90s economic boom. So it's the more like 40+ years were lost for the city.

TennisAndMath · July-21-14, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Gistok has posed it a number of times. It isn't an easy name to remember, but he posted it. Maybe something like Abrieu [[sp). Part of it also might have been that the parcels are owned by family trust and there were problems making contact with the owners of the trust.

My recollection is that the situation was more than simply upping the offer. That the situation was essentially impossible.

If I remember correctly, the missing parcels would be in the dead center of the arena. It would have been impossible to work around the missing parcels.

You're extremely thorough in every one of your posts in this thread, yet you don't know the name of these important land owners and claim the most powerful family in Detroit "couldn't make contact" with them. Really?