Ruh Oh! Grosse Pointe may have built new blockade on Detroit Property!

[GPCharles]

From the river to Jefferson only Fairfax is still open to Alter.

Korte -closed.
Avondale - open. No cross street into Detroit.
Essex - open. No cross street into Detroit.
Fairfax- open. No cross street into Detroit.

From Jeff to Mack if memory serves me right only Hampton and Charlevoix are open. Vernor only allows outbound.

Hampton -open. No cross street into Detroit.
St. Paul/Brooks - closed. No cross street into Detroit.
Kercheval - closed [[or is it).
Vernor - open for two ways in GPP, outbound only in Detroit.
Charlevoix -open for two ways in GPP, inbound only in Detroit.
Goethe - closed. No cross street into Detroit.

[Gannon]

On my homebound meander, I chose to drive by this intersection again...after playing tag for a bit with our favorite newscaster...and was delighted to NOT see that huge Christmas tree while approaching from the west.

There is an entire crew putting the single-lane access in, and all of the barriers have been removed...put aside, at least, I didn't see how FAR they've gone...and it appears that single lane is an entry. The curbs are blown out, it is happening right now.

It seems to be the best compromise. Open the welcome and remove the controversy. The bus drivers will just have to shoot over to Jefferson on one of the narrow roads in that part of town.

Not a bad start of the day...

[GPCharles]

The bus drivers will just have to shoot over to Jefferson on one of the narrow roads in that part of town.

As they always have, since the days of the Lakeshore bus line in the 1960s. They NEVER went down Alter.

[Gannon]

I have one question after reading that Freep article linked by Mikeg19...what the hell is a "European Theme" building?!

What a curious time to invent that...

[Gannon]

As they always have, since the days of the Lakeshore bus line in the 1960s. They NEVER went down Alter.

I was thinking more of the Kercheval SMART route, which I'm more likely to ride. Seeing the bus drive down the sidestreet stresses me out a bit. I can't imagine the residents like it.

[GPCharles]

From the days of the Kercheval Deanhurst to the current Kercheval SMART bus, they always went up and down the sidestreets [[Maryland and Lakepointe), never Alter.

[Wesley Mouch]

Odd that many have chosen to judge GPP on the basis of whether streets are open. Is this really important?

[mikeg19]

Odd that many have chosen to judge GPP on the basis of whether streets are open. Is this really important?

When you live in Detroit and everything is perceived to be about race, I'd say the clear answer to that is yes. Why else would GPP pile snow in the street to block it during the winter or build a building in the middle of the road to keep people out? Conventional wisdom says they people could just drive through on another road, but it's the inconvenience of it. It just all seems shady.

[Wesley Mouch]

[QUOTE=mikeg19;463019]When you live in Detroit and everything is perceived to be about race, I'd say the clear answer to that is yes.]/quote]
Thus, this problem is entirely inside the minds of Detroiters. That I do believe.

Why else would GPP pile snow in the street to block it during the winter or build a building in the middle of the road to keep people out? Conventional wisdom says they people could just drive through on another road, but it's the inconvenience of it.

GPP may be full of racists who can't stand the sight of black skin, or the alternative answer to 'why else' would be to control what they perceive as mostly unpoliced rampant crime to be easily found on the other side of the border. This isn't unreasonable. And I think pretty obvious.

It just all seems shady.

Not shady. But intentional and clear actions in their reasonable best interest. They've a stable business community. Good communities work to protect their business communities from crime. There's clearly crime just over the border. Making it a little more difficult to traffic across that border seems reasonable, and benefits the good citizens of GPP AND DETROIT. Both of them want nearby shopping.

Race doesn't really need to come into this discussion. I think GPP would do the same thing if there were a community of Vikings or a Waco white supremicist camp next door.

There of course is a history of racism. We can focus on history, or focus on the future. I prefer the future with people of all races peaceably shopping in GPP. I prefer the future where Detroit builds Alter road to a shopping district to draw GPP residents. It could happen. But only if we stop the sniping at the perceived motives of the other. Include, don't exclude that which you fear and don't understand.

[Radioron]

Korte -closed.
Avondale - open. No cross street into Detroit.
Essex - open. No cross street into Detroit.
Fairfax- open. No cross street into Detroit.

Hampton -open. No cross street into Detroit.
St. Paul/Brooks - closed. No cross street into Detroit.
Kercheval - closed [[or is it).
Vernor - open for two ways in GPP, outbound only in Detroit.
Charlevoix -open for two ways in GPP, inbound only in Detroit.
Goethe - closed. No cross street into Detroit.

Maybe someone should ask Detroit why all these streets stop at Alter and are not open to allow Grosse Pointers free and clear access to Detroit without having to go to Jefferson or Mack?

[GPCharles]

Well, the ones below Jefferson would have to traverse Fox Creek.

Perhaps a ferry service...

[Gannon]

Nah, Evel Knievel-type launch ramps would be more fun.

[Radioron]

If Detroit can build bridges at WMP and Korte, why not the other three streets? Sounds like a decades old attempt to keep suburbanites out of Detroit.

And if GPP had closed Kercheval on the East side of Wayburn so there was no dispute if anything was built in Detroit and you could still "get into" GPP would we be having this discussion?

[bailey]

"There's been a little miscommunication between [[Detroit and Grosse Pointe Park), but on our side, everything is really happening the way we agreed" with Detroit Mayor Mike Duggan and his staff, Theokas said.
...
[GPP City Manager]Krajniak "The project's really more important than any criticism,"

From some folks in the know.... this entire project was totally dead in the water until Duggan poured gas on the embers.

I suggest they call it the Duggan Building because it wasn't getting built until his rant.

[Wesley Mouch]

But CAY didn't say 'hit Alter Road'? I'm confused.

[Gannon]

From some folks in the know.... this entire project was totally dead in the water until Duggan poured gas on the embers.

I suggest they call it the Duggan Building because it wasn't getting built until his rant.

I guess they scored on the whole "European" style. I had the picture on my screen when my partner happened by, asking why I was looking at pictures of Barcelona. Apparently, that rendering looks 'just like' the place where the old men played chess and others sold coins and stamps.

So, we'll have THAT going over ArenaTown.

Wonder how they say Duggan in Spanish?!

Cheers!

[cjd]

Seems to me when you characterize people as carrying a 'pitchfork' or a 'torch' you are implying they are either farm hands [[meaning slaves) or Neanderthals. This sounds like a backhanded invitation to your Detroit neighbors ...

Why does everything always get interpreted as racial? It seems like 'slave' has to get thrown into just about every conversation.

"Pitchforks and torches" is no slam or racial slight. Take a look at Frankenstein [[1931) as one of the early reference points. It usually refers to a popular uprising against another, especially a politician or other villain. Maybe more succinctly an unyielding mob hunting someone down.



Or Young Frankenstein, if you prefer.

[TKshreve]

From everything I've learned about this fiasco, and from the replies here in this thread; it appears this impasse[[ha!) is the result of hurt feelings. "Screw you're entertainment district, screw you're walkable square and screw your myriad holiday events. And triple screw your farmers market! My feelings are hurt!" Once again Political Correctness snatches development from the jaws of victory. "Pitchforks and torches" = "Horses and bayonettes". Catchy, but dangerous in the wrong hands.

The strawman of racism and non-commuter friendly just don't...... hold....... up - sorry. GPP is diverse - more than ever - and more than Jeff/Chalmers could put up. Also, if you can't find your way in and out of GP [[all-the-sudden) you probably don't have and/or deserve a drivers license. It's not complicated, but let's not focus on the simplicity of this dilemma.

I'm rather surprised that GPP is removing the concrete. That's actually a decent little project. I'm sure they have something in their back pockets though. I don't see this European chateau being built anytime soon, but kowtowing to a raging Duggan is not the way to go either.

I commute through here daily. Work at the racist plant that shut down Kercheval before it was cool and edgy to shut down Kercheval. I used to take Kerch - but when they closed it I said "OK" and found a different route. I now take Charlevoix to Connor. It looks like Berlin circa 1945. I've decided I'm pissed - Boom! I don't like the pack dogs and stray cats. The people who blow stop signs and litter on the street are preposterous. The half burned houses and and crumbling foundations are insulting. The vacant schools [[for rent!) are a slap in my face. Overgrown lots and charlatan store front churches - seedy. The people who walk in the street are asking to be hit at night. Streetlights...... who needs em?!?!

Where TF is Duggan in all this? MY damn feelings are now hurt. I demand answers and more so...... action! Now! Rahharah! More! Yell! Scream!

[MAcc]

The city was so desperate they were even offering subsidized rents to college students to try to keep the neighborhood from tanking completely. My mother shrieked "GOOD LORD! Subsidized rent in Grosse Pointe! " when she heard that news from one of her friends still in the Park.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this for nursing and medical residents?

[Llama]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this for nursing and medical residents?

For Graduate and Professional students and for medical Residents, yes.

I live in GPP and LOVE that plaza rendering! Not sure how there'd be enough room for it without using some Detroit land, unless they tear down everything currently between the border and Wayburn along Kercheval, but I do hope it gets built, and soon!

So many diners in the metro area seem to love the ambience at La Dolce Vita [[Woodward N of Mc Nichols) but shun the place due to the dreadful service and attitude. That Plaza area would seem a natural for a similar, hideaway-looking dining spot presented by nice people offering solid food and drink at a good value.

[[I am glad the former manager and his 3-for-$20 tacos plan for a second location along Kercheval is gone from Red Crown. That just smacked of money-grubbing, and stood to price out sane locals ... Upscaling just becomes ripping off when carried to that extreme.)

I would love to see the first few blocks of Kercheval on the Detroit side become a magnet for small, independent, interesting international eateries [[like Hamtramck), but I doubt that's reasonable due to perceived and real lack of safety, even assuming great affordability. :-[[

[sumas]

Once again, east area from Bewick to Cadieux from the river to Mack was one community the Village of Fairview. The shared history is there. The annexation of a portion of Fairview in 1907 was the first of many following annexations until about 1926. Wrote a book about it but don't shill on line

Sat on the board for the Grosse Pointe Detroit Community Collabrative funded by LISC funding halted. Many cross inniatives were accomplished however during its brief span.

I stand by my street closing list since Alter is Detoit

You want to blame anyone for the decline of the border look to Coleman Young and the friends and family plan. Waterfront and near waterfront property was desirable and it was an intentional land grab for future redevelopment. Secondly Most houses north of Jefferson were built by emigres and just not worth saving.

When I was a kid the houses on Alter were mostly peopled by French Belgians. Imaculate but still not great houses to current codes. You would see people out literally scrubbing the street sidewalks and flowers everywhere. Those days are gone and the houses were crappy built.

I loath litter and agree on that. We have begged as a community for anti litter programs in schools but to deaf ears. Working with area kids through cleanups we have seen a serious reduction but an area gas station and local party store denizens still dump trash. One neighbor who is fearless chases people down and make them pick up trash.

Other comments but I will save them for later.

[old guy]

Bring out the pitchforks is simply a metaphor that's gaining popularity in addressing social and monetary inequality. It's more of a poor people versus Wall St. thing. I don't see any racial overtones in the statement. I think you'll be hearing this more often in the near future, all things considered.

[expatriate]

I'm sorry they caved. The issue was about traffic calming and creating a pedestrian friendly area in a reviving commercial district. The street closure only prevented automobiles not pedestrians. Easy enough to park west of Alter and stroll Kercheval or even drive from Vernor, Charlevois, Jefferson and the alley necessary, but discouraging it as a thoroughfare is a plus in my opinion. Situating the sheds in the middle was a mistake that has been rectified, but the traffic circle and cobblestone pavement enhances the intersection. All over the country progressive cities are waging a battle to reclaim streets for pedestrians. I guess it is not surprising that the "motor city" lags behind in this regard.

[Gpwrangler]

I'm sorry they caved. The issue was about traffic calming and creating a pedestrian friendly area in a reviving commercial district. The street closure only prevented automobiles not pedestrians. Easy enough to park west of Alter and stroll Kercheval or even drive from Vernor, Charlevois, Jefferson and the alley necessary, but discouraging it as a thoroughfare is a plus in my opinion. Situating the sheds in the middle was a mistake that has been rectified, but the traffic circle and cobblestone pavement enhances the intersection. All over the country progressive cities are waging a battle to reclaim streets for pedestrians. I guess it is not surprising that the "motor city" lags behind in this regard.

They didn't cave. The narrow lane was in the plan early on. I heard about it in early summer. The sheds were temporary.

[swingline]

I'm sorry they caved. The issue was about traffic calming and creating a pedestrian friendly area in a reviving commercial district. The street closure only prevented automobiles not pedestrians. Easy enough to park west of Alter and stroll Kercheval or even drive from Vernor, Charlevois, Jefferson and the alley necessary, but discouraging it as a thoroughfare is a plus in my opinion. Situating the sheds in the middle was a mistake that has been rectified, but the traffic circle and cobblestone pavement enhances the intersection. All over the country progressive cities are waging a battle to reclaim streets for pedestrians. I guess it is not surprising that the "motor city" lags behind in this regard.

You are perpetuating a false narrative. The traffic circle and the sheds did not result from any professional recommendation that traffic calming was necessary to boost walkability. Kercheval Ave. did not need calming. The existing scale of the ROW and the very low vehicle speeds in the four block commercial district already made for an ideal mix of pedestrian and vehicle uses. Remove or drastically reduce the vehicles and you sap energy and customers from the district. The only thing this ill-advised infrastructure expenditure achieved for Grosse Pointe Park was a cheap home for its Farmers’ Market for a couple dozen days a year while at the same time creating a permanent physical obstacle to the successful redevelopment of the Detroit side of Kercheval Ave. The negotiated partial restoration of the Kercheval Ave. traffic lanes is an insufficient resolution but is likely the best compromise possible. In order to save face, GPP’s leadership was never going to completely back away from its bone-headed decision.