Macomb Township, the Golden Age of Sprawl.

[e.p.3]

I'm from the eastside and I have no idea where Macomb Township is, but I suspect it's somewhere near Clinton Township, Harrison Township, Shelby Township or Chesterfield Township, although I'm not really sure where those last two are, either. I wouldn't know when I've entered or exited Macomb. I venture down Hall Road once a year. Is that in Macomb Township?

Yeah, they're the tackiest of the deep sprawl in Metro Detroit. Oakland Twp/ Rochester Hills, and especially Milford/Brighton are the less ostentatious of the deep sprawl. Vibe and character of their respective residents tend to reflect their architectural tastes, if you catch my drift.

[nain rouge]

It's already happening.

Oh, certainly. I lived at 10 & Gratiot for a year not too long ago, so I know all about it. Definitely, Eastpointe, South Warren, and parts of Roseville classify as decayed. I think you're also right about Northeast Detroit. Sometimes I'd visit the 7 Mile & Van Dyke area out of curiosity, and it's hard to see areas like that surviving unless there is a massive turnaround in the habits of the average Metro Detroiter.

For one, after moving out of Michigan, I can now see just how bad racial segregation in Metro Detroit is. 8 Mile, 7 Mile, and McNichols are just NUTS. It's disturbing, really, how off-limits white people treat those areas, and how the black population has responded to such discrimination.

[dtowncitylover]

I have coworkers who live in South Lyon, M-59 area, far downriver, one lives in Lenox! They commute to our office in Southfield, I just don't get it. They complain about the commute and can't put 2+2 together.

I remember being in high school and first hearing about Washington Twp and thinking it was somewhere in the Irish Hills. Then meeting a girl in college who was from there, and remarking, "People actually live there?"

[Danny]

It's already happening.

Have you been through Eastpointe and Harper Woods lately? Both have majority black populations, retailers have been fleeing these places and they probably have a sizable number of Section 8 renters these days.

Much of NE DEtroit will probably look like the lower east side [[with nothing but urban prairies lining the streets) over the next 10-20 years as those vacant homes are demolished or collapse.

Yes, it will, as more middle class whites leave the inner ring cookie cutter suburbs, those areas will be replaced by Section 8 welfare and food stamp folks. They will drive down property values. Just like it did in all Detroit nieghborhoods long ago. It contribute to more suburban sprawl way out pass 26 mile Rd. You can log on to google maps and how suburban spawl had widespread.

This is way Metro-Detroit housing goes in the new millennium:

1. More young professionals are moving back to Detroit from Gilberttown to Midtown areas.

2. More white middle class families who had done living in Detroit apts. or leasing condos, when they they get the second bundle of joy, they will need a home. But they will not move to Detroit neighborhoods, and absolutely not going to move just 2 to 6 miles north of 8 Mile Rd. They will move out near 20 Mile Rd and beyond. [[ which will be the new 8 Mile Rd.)

3. Black flight from Detroit to suburbs has accelerated in the last 20 years. From 1994 to 2014 over 250,000 blacks have moved out of Detroit to mostly inner ring suburbs. You all seen them when they live just 2 to 4 miles from Detroit border. Southfield, Lathrup Village, Oak Park now Farmington Hills and West Bloomfield TWP. are the early examples of early middle class black flight from Detroit since 1980 to present. Eastpointe, Harper Woods, Redford TWP. and Warren are examples of lower class black flight on the 1990s.

Indeed xenophobia, segregation, red-lining, restrictive covenants, pointe system, racial steering, mortage on time payments and violent crime, poor schools, reduce police force, lack of security contributes suburban sprawl.

Other automation factors that support suburban sprawl:

1. freeways

2. shopping Malls with anchor dept. Stores

3. expansion of interstate highway systems

4 Better cookie cutter housing for [[only white middle class people back in the 1950s.) McMansions for people who have careers [[ not talking about fast food jobs) I mean a real career from working from Quicken Loans to being in political office.

5. excellent police force [[ that racially profile minorities)

6. better public and private schools

7. and other activities that middle class folks enjoy.

Face it folks! suburban sprawl is going to keep on growing. Farmlands will be gone, forests will be deforested, rivers and creeks will be covered, lakes will be either drained or covered for housing. Underground wells will sucked dry! The animals will be suburbanites, too. Macomb TWP. is representation of fast growing suburban sprawl. With Walmarts and Meijers everywhere and you need a car to get anywhere.

[mikeg19]

You answered your own question.

Not to mention we have so much overbuilt infrastructure to help people travel longer distances faster around Metro Detroit that traffic congestion isn't a problem these people have to worry about in their commutes.

I used to have to commute from 23 & Gratiot to Maple & Crooks for work. That nightmare ride was at least an hour. Assuming nobody was driving like a retard and hadn't caused an accident. It's incredible how my commute from the same origin to 7 Mile and Sherwood can literally take me 30 minutes or less when traffic is moving with no accidents.

So right there is the allure. A 30 minute drive to work and you can live out in the burbs in a 4,000sq foot house. Low crime, good schools, parks and activities for the kiddies. Would I drive from Algonac or Marysville? Hell no. Half your life would be wasted in a car.

But lets consider that recently, a lot of people did live relatively close to their job. It's only been in the past two decades or so that people have had more competition for jobs or the economy wasn't supporting good paying jobs near your home. So unless you're a teenager living with mom and dad, you need to take a job where it's offered. And if the only one is out in Belleville or wherever, looks like your gonna be driving 2+ hours in a car everyday.

[GUSHI]

I live at 25 vandyke, so far we have a dead plaza at 25 shelby, 23 van dyke, 23 and schoneer, and 23 Hayes, and yet the wanna built more, also those area mentioned either house a kroger or farmer jack at 1 time or another, now we have a huge footprint that's empt were they use to be.

[Hermod]

I used to cuss my commute from 7 Mile and Schoenherr to downtown. Before the expressways, Gratiot was one massive parking lot.

[Novine]

Macomb Township is like most east side communities in that it allows single-family home development at much higher densities than you'll see on the west side. Those smaller lots allow for many more homes to be packed into an area. That's allowed it to absorb a tremendous amount of growth without chewing up all of the remaining farmland. If you look at an aerial view of the township in Google, you can still see large tracts of farmland even as the township added almost 30,000 new residents in the past 10 years. If the township continues to develop in the same fashion, it will easily clear 100,000 people in population.

On the west side and in places like Oakland Township, the zoning requirements often require larger lots and lower density. Also, there tends to be more wetlands and west side communities often have more restrictions on removing woodlands and wetlands. That's why communities like Novi and Canton haven't grown as quickly as Macomb even as they've seen similar growth patterns. Most of Macomb Township was farmland so it was easy to fill it up with homes and with more homes per acre.

[Novine]

All of this population "growth" is really just population shuffling around the metro area. The population of the MSA has been stagnant for 40 years. Think of all of the money invested in infrastructure that's been left behind, mostly in communities that can no longer afford to maintain all of those streets, sewers, etc.

[ghettopalmetto]

All of this population "growth" is really just population shuffling around the metro area. The population of the MSA has been stagnant for 40 years. Think of all of the money invested in infrastructure that's been left behind, mostly in communities that can no longer afford to maintain all of those streets, sewers, etc.

My thought is, with current demographic trends, who will own these 4000 sf houses in Macomb Township in 20 years? I foresee a not-too-distant time when not many people will want--or be able to afford--to live like that.

[GUSHI]

They need to stop building, Shelby is just about built to the Max, Macomb has room to grow, but at the expense of other inner ring cities, Neither one is a walkable community, the only 2 in the area are rochester and romeo,

[mikeg19]

My thought is, with current demographic trends, who will own these 4000 sf houses in Macomb Township in 20 years? I foresee a not-too-distant time when not many people will want--or be able to afford--to live like that.

I agree. Who the hell wants to heat/cool/clean/maintain/furnish/rehab 4000, 5000, 6000sq ft homes? I guess if you can afford it, you're going to have a maid service or something of that nature, but I can't even fathom paying the utility bills or taxes for that. Give me 2,000sq ft with a finished basement and a nice yard. Keep the mini mansion.

[jackie5275]

My thought is, with current demographic trends, who will own these 4000 sf houses in Macomb Township in 20 years? I foresee a not-too-distant time when not many people will want--or be able to afford--to live like that.

Good question because I see my sister in law, who was one of the original folks moving out there 20 years ago with her family, is an empty nester now. Her kids are gone. There's just her & her husband in a 3500 sq ft house.

[jackie5275]

Face it folks! suburban sprawl is going to keep on growing. Farmlands will be gone, forests will be deforested, rivers and creeks will be covered, lakes will be either drained or covered for housing. Underground wells will sucked dry! The animals will be suburbanites, too. Macomb TWP. is representation of fast growing suburban sprawl. With Walmarts and Meijers everywhere and you need a car to get anywhere.

I don't see lakes being drained. Folks who can afford it still love lakefront property. There's a lot of boaters who like the lakes too.

[DTWflyer]

Macomb Township sprawl those is actually more of the "affordable" sprawl, as most of homes in that area are between 2,500-3,000 sq ft, and in the low $300's. Macomb Twp generally does not have many of the 5000+ sq ft homes.

Although the homes may only be listed as 2500 sq ft, they typically seem and act much bigger with finished basements, 2-story great rooms, 3 car garages, and large rooflines that don't necessarily get added into the square footage calculation but contribute to the overall size and footprint of the home.

Oakland Township and Rochester Hills typically see the larger 4000+ sq ft. McMansion sprawl.

[Danny]

I don't see lakes being drained. Folks who can afford it still love lakefront property. There's a lot of boaters who like the lakes too.

In some areas where suburban sprawl loomed, some lakes and swamps have already been drained.

[Hermod]

In some areas where suburban sprawl loomed, some lakes and swamps have already been drained.

Most of Oakland and Macomb counties south of 14 mile were trackless and impassible swamps during the early 19th century. The setllers from New York came by water and moved up the Clinton River valley to found Utica, Rochester, and Troy.

[Danny]

City of Warren received its fast suburban sprawl since the 1950s'. Before its Levittown Era, Warren was a township. Neighborhoods were built along north of E. 8 Mile Rd. from Mound Rd. to Hoover Rd. it further up to Village of Center Line. The rest of the areas were site built houses and open farmland. When developers offered car companies cheap land, General Motors, American Motors and Chrysler took the deal. They built their tech centers, powertrain plants and assembly lines along Mound Rd. Other contracted manufactures took the bait. Thus Macomb County became part of automation alley. Developers kept on buying more farmland and cookie cutter ranches and colonials were built as far as 14 Mile Rd. By 1970 Warren had a population of over 170,000 residents making in the Metro-Detroit's first biggest suburb.

Today Warren is divided to two class areas. South Warren filled with old Detroit-esque sprawl and North Warren filled modern automation sprawl. Van Dyke Rd. from E. 8 Mile Rd. to border of Center Line appears to be pre-ghetto-esque, sort of 'White Man's Ghetto.' Other areas north of I-696 to 14 Mile Rd. is more middle class with 1960s' and 70s' type homes, manicured lawns and big backyards. Now some folks are getting living to close to Detroit border near welfare and food stamp folks. Moving further out pass 20 Mile Rd. [[The New 8 Mile Rd.) will be their solution. To produce more sprawl.

[Hermod]

City of Warren received its fast suburban sprawl since the 1950s'. Before its Levittown Era, Warren was a township. Neighborhoods were built along north of E. 8 Mile Rd. from Mound Rd. to Hoover Rd. it further up to Village of Center Line. The rest of the areas were site built houses and open farmland. When developers offered car companies cheap land, General Motors, American Motors and Chrysler took the deal. They built their tech centers, powertrain plants and assembly lines along Mound Rd. Other contracted manufactures took the bait. Thus Macomb County became part of automation alley. Developers kept on buying more farmland and cookie cutter ranches and colonials were built as far as 14 Mile Rd. By 1970 Warren had a population of over 170,000 residents making in the Metro-Detroit's first biggest suburb.

Today Warren is divided to two class areas. South Warren filled with old Detroit-esque sprawl and North Warren filled modern automation sprawl. Van Dyke Rd. from E. 8 Mile Rd. to border of Center Line appears to be pre-ghetto-esque, sort of 'White Man's Ghetto.' Other areas north of I-696 to 14 Mile Rd. is more middle class with 1960s' and 70s' type homes, manicured lawns and big backyards. Now some folks are getting living to close to Detroit border near welfare and food stamp folks. Moving further out pass 20 Mile Rd. [[The New 8 Mile Rd.) will be their solution. To produce more sprawl.

The only political power they have is "voting with their feet".

[Scottathew]

[Pure Trolling]
I despise the Sprawlburb of Detroit. People should move out of Detroit, it's not dense enough. They should move to cities that are denser like Eastpointe, St. Clair Shores, Clawson, Ferndale, Hazel Park, Oak Park, Lincoln Park, Grosse Pointe Park, Grosse Pointe, or Hamtramck.

People in the Sprawlburb of Detroit aren't dense enough and they don't have enough stores close to their houses. People in the Sprawlburb of Detroit need to move into the more dense suburbs listed above.
[/Pure Trolling]

But seriously, all the suburbs I listed above are as dense or denser than Detroit. People that right now are shopping for houses have the choice between Detroit with it's crime, poor services, and shitty schools, or they can pick one of the above suburbs and be free of the all the bad things and live in a city that's just a dense if not denser, have shorter drives to school, work, and stores.

The dense part of Greater Detroit is now the inner-ring suburbs, not Detroit. This is of course the result of sprawl and the factors that make sprawl desirable.

[Danny]

48307,


That explain why suburbs get bigger and bigger and Detroit getting smaller and smaller. Suburban Sprawl from Canton TWP. to Macomb TWP. must slow down. Unfortunately it can't because people demand better homes! While we at it let's the developers drain or close the lakes, cut down wooded areas, tear up traditional farmlands and put super mansions, luxury apartments, mega condos and cover it up with Walmart's and Meijer's. No need to walk, or jog. You can take your SUV anywhere.

If you have watch Disney's WALL-E, B&L, [[ Big and Large) The world's leading global government and one and only super corporation of mass production of goods and services created over-consumption and super sprawl that they created an eco-disaster on Earth. So they created WALL-E's to clean their mess while vast pollution of humans left Earth on a super corporate spaceship called 'AXIOM' waiting in a hidden nebula of outer space until Earth can all WALL-E's finish their global work so that Earth's environment to reproduce life.

While humans are on their spaceship super sprawl and over consumption of goods and services have made them very obese, unable to get up from their seats and walk and run or defend themselves. Supercomputers pamper them from their cradle to their life shorten graves. Later the last WALL-E [[who fell in love with a bio-scout name EVE) save the fattening humans from their pampering phase of machines and return to Earth to rebuild their lives. This time no super sprawl and or over consumption.

Metro Detroit is become like "Big and Large": Detroit is Earth, almost destroyed by over consumption and race baiting. Black folks and remaining Hispanics who live there are like WALL-E's, cleaning up their mess. White folks leaving Detroit long ago to greener areas for suburban sprawl and dependence in machines are people leaving Earth to outer space for development. Young Professional's are like the bio-scouts going back to Detroit to find signs to development [[ which they did). Most of them will return to Detroit to rebuild their lives.

Get the point.

[iheartthed]

[Pure Trolling]
I despise the Sprawlburb of Detroit. People should move out of Detroit, it's not dense enough. They should move to cities that are denser like Eastpointe, St. Clair Shores, Clawson, Ferndale, Hazel Park, Oak Park, Lincoln Park, Grosse Pointe Park, Grosse Pointe, or Hamtramck.

People in the Sprawlburb of Detroit aren't dense enough and they don't have enough stores close to their houses. People in the Sprawlburb of Detroit need to move into the more dense suburbs listed above.
[/Pure Trolling]

But seriously, all the suburbs I listed above are as dense or denser than Detroit. People that right now are shopping for houses have the choice between Detroit with it's crime, poor services, and shitty schools, or they can pick one of the above suburbs and be free of the all the bad things and live in a city that's just a dense if not denser, have shorter drives to school, work, and stores.

The dense part of Greater Detroit is now the inner-ring suburbs, not Detroit. This is of course the result of sprawl and the factors that make sprawl desirable.

I doubt that the population weighted density for any of those cities is as high as Detroit. However, I can't find any sources online at the moment that calculates the city's population density apart from the entire urbanized area [[which would include those suburbs).

[Scottathew]

I doubt that the population weighted density for any of those cities is as high as Detroit. However, I can't find any sources online at the moment that calculates the city's population density apart from the entire urbanized area [[which would include those suburbs).

Wikipedia has census density data for each city. That's where I got my information from.

Detroit was as dense as two of the cities in the list, and Detroit was LESS dense than the rest.

[iheartthed]

Wikipedia has census density data for each city. That's where I got my information from.

Detroit was as dense as two of the cities in the list, and Detroit was LESS dense than the rest.

Yeah, I know. But the number you gave isn't the weighted population density, which better represents the local level density of where a person lives. So Detroit as a whole may be 5,000 people/square mile but the average Detroiter probably lives in an area with a density which is higher than that. To get that you would take a weighted average of each census track density in the city.

[Hermod]

Yeah, I know. But the number you gave isn't the weighted population density, which better represents the local level density of where a person lives. So Detroit as a whole may be 5,000 people/square mile but the average Detroiter probably lives in an area with a density which is higher than that. To get that you would take a weighted average of each census track density in the city.

That argument could also apply to the suburbs by just ignoring areas with no houses.