Rapid Bus Project for Pontiac --> Downtown Detroit Proposed

[bailey]

The position Bham1982 is advocating is known as "BRT Creep". Once the decision [[which, in this case, is pre-ordained) is made to construct BRT, then all sorts of shortcuts can be taken in order to complete the project on-the-cheap. The project is sold as rapid transit, but the finished product looks like painted white lines on the road, and it is somehow assumed that because of new painted white lines, an ordinary bus will operate in the same manner [[and with the same cost metrics) as a train. I'm still not sure how paint = rapid transit. I guess we're just supposed to believe the road builders, er, experts at SEMCOG.

So yeah, SEMCOG can recommend a cheap-ass cop-out on transit, but they'll sure-as-shit recommend spending $1 billion to widen I-75, or another $1 billion to widen I-94.

People aren't as dumb as SEMCOG would like them to be.

yes they are.... it's proven every.single.day around these parts.

[Detroitnerd]

This is all wrong. All of these systems have dedicated lanes. I have never heard of a BRT system with no dedicated lanes, and don't know how it would be possible.

Well, there is this thing called research ... sigh ...

[Bham1982]

So maybe you can explain how Boston's Silver Line is perpetually stuck in traffic. Must be those dedicated lanes, huh?

I have no idea if the Silver Line is "perpetually stuck in traffic", but, yes, it does have dedicated lanes, even dedicated underground lanes. My subway used to be "perpetually stuck in traffic" too, but that doesn't mean it didn't have a dedicated right-of-way.

There are dozens of light rail systems in the United States. They all have dedicated right-of-way, operate in multiple-car consists, utilized steel wheels on steel rails, are powered by electricity, have fare payment systems, stations-and-platforms, and many are also grade-separated [[at least in portions). That sounds pretty consistent to me.

Everything you just wrote [[at least the parts that are relevant) is also true of BRT systems. All have dedicated right of way, all have separate fare payment systems. That's what BRT is. There's no distinction in scope between BRT as an umbrella concept for fast bus and LRT as an umbrella concept for low capacity rail.

Cleveland's ballyhooed HealthLine cost just as much per mile to construct as the Waterfront Line light rail.

Then BRT must be a hell of a lot cheaper, because the Waterfront light rail was built 20 years ago, and has minimal ridership compared to the Euclid line.

It seems like you forgot purchase of articulated low-floor buses, construction of stations, electronic transmitters and receivers for traffic signal pre-emption, and repaving of the roadway. But since the cost of those things is practically negligible, let's start buying white paint and get to work on our World Class Rapid Transit!

Compared to a new rail system, yes, obviously buying new buses and fareboxes are many times cheaper. Buses have to be replaced every few years anyways. Fare machines cost almost nothing. Bus shelters are actually revenue sources for most major cities, because of advertising. Painting a lane of traffic is a minimal expense. If high-cost NYC can build BRT lines all over the place for minimal amounts, I think moderate-cost Michigan can do the same.

You can build a BRT line for tens of millions. You can't build a light rail line for less than hundreds of millions. We're talking massive difference in upfront costs.

[Bham1982]

Well, there is this thing called research ... sigh ...

Ok, can you please point us to a BRT system lacking actual BRT lanes? Do the buses fly?

[ghettopalmetto]

So, Bham 1982, you're going to sell your car once the Rapid White Paint goes down on Woodward, right?

Please. There are 5 bus routes in the United States that are considered "rapid" transit: Cleveland HealthLine, Los Angeles Orange Line, Pittsburgh Airport Busway, Eugene [[OR) and Las Vegas. And despite your assertions to the contrary, NOT ONE of these five routes has ALL of the characteristics you noted.

http://econ212g-s13-horn.wikispaces....iew/US_BRT.pdf

How can this happen, you might ask? Especially when bus "rapid" transit has such strict and lofty minimum standards? Because stupid bastards cheap-out and cut corners. Every. Single. Time. If you think any such "system" in Detroit is going to be different, you're out of your gourd.

All these things you talk about: pre-payment, dedicated lanes, physical separation from traffic, signal pre-emption, stations / platforms--are terrific. They are an improvement over regular bus service. But for what SEMCOG is planning to spend, you can't buy ANY of those.

So, which is it--rapid transit, or cheap?

You can put a prom dress on an ugly girl, but she's still going to be ugly.

[DetroitPlanner]

So, Bham 1982, you're going to sell your car once the Rapid White Paint goes down on Woodward, right?

Please. There are 5 bus routes in the United States that are considered "rapid" transit: Cleveland HealthLine, Los Angeles Orange Line, Pittsburgh Airport Busway, Eugene [[OR) and Las Vegas. And despite your assertions to the contrary, NOT ONE of these five routes has ALL of the characteristics you noted.

http://econ212g-s13-horn.wikispaces....iew/US_BRT.pdf

How can this happen, you might ask? Especially when bus "rapid" transit has such strict and lofty standards? Because stupid bastards cheap-out and cut corners. Every. Single. Time.
If you think any such "system" in Detroit is going to be different, you're out of your gourd.

You forgot about Boston's Silver line. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Line_[[MBTA) It too has sections of the line that are less than optimal; but when you have to lay these over existing conditions, you make do. None of these have started with perfect conditions, that is why you don't see any with all the bells and whistles.

[Bham1982]

So, Bham 1982, you're going to sell your car once the Rapid White Paint goes down on Woodward, right?

What does this have to do with anything? No one will "sell their car", as the U.S., excepting NYC, is massively car-oriented. You don't need people to "sell their car" to have a functional transit system.

Please. There are 5 bus routes in the United States that are considered "rapid" transit: Cleveland HealthLine, Los Angeles Orange Line, Pittsburgh Airport Busway, Eugene [[OR) and Las Vegas. And despite your assertions to the contrary, NOT ONE of these five routes has ALL of the characteristics you noted.

You just made this up. I have never ridden any of these lines, yet I have been on plenty of BRT lines in the U.S. Fordham Rd. in the Bronx, 1st and 2nd Ave. in Manhattan, 34th Street in Manhattan, Nostrand Ave. and Rogers Ave. in Brooklyn, etc.

All have dedicated lanes, station fare-collection, special buses, etc. These BRT lines were implemented cheaply and with huge success.

[ghettopalmetto]

You forgot about Boston's Silver line. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Line_[[MBTA) It too has sections of the line that are less than optimal; but when you have to lay these over existing conditions, you make do. None of these have started with perfect conditions, that is why you don't see any with all the bells and whistles.

This sounds like an excuse. What was less than optimal, and why wasn't it optimized? What specific "existing conditions" prevented anyone from realizing their dream of a train on tires?

If you read the link I provided, Boston's Silver Line scores very, very low. Low enough, in fact, to not qualify as "rapid" transit.

[ghettopalmetto]

You just made this up. I have never ridden any of these lines, yet I have been on plenty of BRT lines in the U.S. Fordham Rd. in the Bronx, 1st and 2nd Ave. in Manhattan, 34th Street in Manhattan, Nostrand Ave. and Rogers Ave. in Brooklyn, etc.

All have dedicated lanes, station fare-collection, special buses, etc. These BRT lines were implemented cheaply and with huge success.

If I'm making shit up, prove me wrong. The facts are out there for you to find--I've already done years of reading on this snake oil transit scam.

Now, since BRT is New York City is so successful, would you say that you prefer the "rapid" buses over the subway?

As I've said before, you don't need a Sexybus to put buses in dedicated lanes. You can do that tomorrow on Woodward, just as New York has done for quite a few years now. The difference is that New York isn't stupid enough to refer to its express buses as "rapid transit".

[Bham1982]

If I'm making shit up, prove me wrong. The facts are out there for you to find--I've already done years of reading on this snake oil transit scam.

So you are claiming that these BRT lines don't exist? Check out Google Streetview if you're interested. There are dedicated bus lanes on streets all over NYC, and it isn't infrequent in LA either.

Even decades before the formalized concept of BRT, there were dedicated bus lanes on major streets like Fifth Avenue and Broadway.

Now, since BRT is New York City is so successful, would you say that you prefer the "rapid" buses over the subway?

Of course I would prefer a subway, but that isn't the choice. It would cost like 500 billion to cover NYC in new subway lines on every major bus line.

[ghettopalmetto]

So you are claiming that these BRT lines don't exist? Check out Google Streetview if you're interested. There are dedicated bus lanes on streets all over NYC, and it isn't infrequent in LA either.

Even decades before the formalized concept of BRT, there were dedicated bus lanes on major streets like Fifth Avenue and Broadway.

A dedicated bus lane does not equal "rapid transit", Skippy. That's what I've been saying all along.

Now, because I [[as a rational person) would like to make sure that I understand what you're saying, can you clarify your position a bit? It would be helpful to know:

A) Which characteristics of "rapid transit" you expect would be implemented on a "rapid" bus line in the Detroit region?

B) How much you think the options in A) will cost to implement.

[Detroitnerd]

Ok, can you please point us to a BRT system lacking actual BRT lanes? Do the buses fly?

You're kind of a smart guy, Bham, but your huffy and categorical dismissals of whole ideas have attitude to spare, but seldom include much evidence.

As for this BRT thing, I think you're engaging in a kind of shell game here. BRT systems have designated lanes. But not all systems labeled as "BRT" are really "BRT," so you could be having that both ways by intentionally misunderstanding what we're discussing.

To clarify, you don't need BRT to have designated lanes. Designated lanes are a good idea for bus service.

And, based on the numbers we're seeing, I can only conclude we're not going to get a BRT system. We're getting a bus system.

[rb336]

There are two ways to do BRT - the "fixed guideway" model or the "mixed in traffic" model. Most places that have "fixed guideway" systems also have segments that do not have dedicated lanes. From what I saw on the plans for The Rapid, there are no fixed guideways. the only road construction I saw are bump-outs at the stops. I would have no issues with the fixed guideway system, provided it did have a signal interlink and provided the stops were every mile unless a major roadway is between the miles in order to make it true rapid transit

[ghettopalmetto]

There are two ways to do BRT - the "fixed guideway" model or the "mixed in traffic" model. Most places that have "fixed guideway" systems also have segments that do not have dedicated lanes. From what I saw on the plans for The Rapid, there are no fixed guideways. the only road construction I saw are bump-outs at the stops. I would have no issues with the fixed guideway system, provided it did have a signal interlink and provided the stops were every mile unless a major roadway is between the miles in order to make it true rapid transit

Even still, a bus just physically *cannot* be rapid transit. This bus will top-out at 35 mph operating speed, thanks to the speed limit and required acceleration/deceleration distance--which increases beyond that of a standard 40-passenger city bus. Average operating speed will be much, much lower than 35 mph.

True rapid transit, by comparison, has vehicles that can attain 60 mph or more, and can *average* 35 mph-or-so in operation. It's a whole different league of service.

Call it an express bus. Call it a fast bus. Call it Sexybus [[my preferred). Just don't call it "rapid transit". It's not.

[ghettopalmetto]

Here's another fun thing about Cleveland's celebrated bus "rapid" transit line:

It's slow. Slower, in fact, than the existing Red Line Rapid that was built in the 1950s. If you look at the schedules [[http://www.riderta.com/routes), the HealthLine BRT leaves Stokes-Windermere station at 5:05 PM and arrives at Public Square at 5:42 PM. That's 37 minutes to travel 7 miles [[11.4 mph).

The Red Line rail leaves Stokes-Windermere at 5:07 PM and arrives at Tower City [[on Public Square) at 5:28 PM. That is, it covers the same distance in 21 minutes [[20 mph). Stated another way, the "rapid" bus is 75% slower than rail.

I think, for a 30-mile route [[such as Detroit-to-Pontiac), it's pretty clear that rail is a far better alternative than this stupid-ass bus.

[That Great Guy]

Here's another fun thing about Cleveland's celebrated bus "rapid" transit line:

It's slow. Slower, in fact, than the existing Red Line Rapid that was built in the 1950s. If you look at the schedules [[http://www.riderta.com/routes), the HealthLine BRT leaves Stokes-Windermere station at 5:05 PM and arrives at Public Square at 5:42 PM. That's 37 minutes to travel 7 miles [[11.4 mph).

The Red Line rail leaves Stokes-Windermere at 5:07 PM and arrives at Tower City [[on Public Square) at 5:28 PM. That is, it covers the same distance in 21 minutes [[20 mph). Stated another way, the "rapid" bus is 75% slower than rail.

I think, for a 30-mile route [[such as Detroit-to-Pontiac), it's pretty clear that rail is a far better alternative than this stupid-ass bus.

I don't think but know Mr. John Hertel of SMART's plan to put HOV lanes on I-75 costing a Billion dollars from money once used for public bus operating expenses is far faster and will get the vote of the majority next August

YES for a tax increase, more bus service reductions and another increase in 4 years.

Until we all learn that without a permanent local tax for a Regional Transit Authority RTA, we can all dream on and even then that won't be enough.

But, wait just one minute, there is hope.

Industry has not paid decent wages since Jesus Christ died on the Cross, but maybe someday they will? Maybe when Hell freezes over?

[SDCC]

Rapid started over the weekend, I had a free day and thought what the hay. Jumped on the bus downtown and enjoyed the ride all the way to Escondido. Brand new, double long buses are being used for this venture; this is the nicest bus I’ve ever been on. Fairly aggressive schedule – every 30 minutes – except during morning and afternoon rush hours, then its ramped up to 15 minute intervals.
7 total stops – after the 2^nd stop, the diamond lane appears, along with hybrid – easy off, easy on, ramps. I went midday, counting the driver and myself, there were 3 people on this mega size rapid transit vehicle. Trip time was an impressive 45 minutes…

“Rapid is among the first of a new breed of Bus Rapid Transit [[BRT) services that SANDAG is building in collaboration with the Metropolitan Transit System [[MTS). Rapid is an integral part of a region-wide strategy to create a BRT network to provide even more travel choices. In the coming years, Rapid will expand…”

http://www.rapidmts.com/

[mtburb]

Those LED signs in the last two photos look oddly similar to the ones SMART's now using inside all of their fixed-route buses...

[SDCC]

Those LED signs in the last two photos look oddly similar to the ones SMART's now using inside all of their fixed-route buses...

Typically those are found inside trolleys, this is the first bus I've been on that has been equipped with those illuminated signs. There was an automated audio announcement as well; both of those features were only found on our light rail vehicles, that is till now.