"white folks created the ghetto": racist housing policy in chicago, detroit also?

[believe14]

You may not realize it, but the vast majority of people in America who are "on the dole" are white people.

Isn't % of the respective populations a more genuine way to look at the welfare landscape?

[Scottathew]

Dan,

Do you have any idea of how offensive, racist, disrespectful, and ignorant you sound?

How dare you say that "the dole is another form of slavery?"

Do you think that senior citizens collecting Social Security checks and receiving Medicare coverage are "on the dole?"

Do you think that laid-off workers who are collecting unemployment benefits are "on the dole?"

Have you, or one of your family members, ever received unemployment, food stamps, Social Security, or Medicare benefits?

Do you really think that getting food stamps or a social security check is "another form of slavery?"

I have been working full time since I was 18 years old, except for a few months in my early 20s after I was laid off and couldn't find a job.

I have been fortunate to have never been a slave, or subjected to forced servitude, but I feel pretty confident in saying that the 6 months that I was unemployed, and collecting government unemployment checks "on the dole" wasn't anything like slavery. My grandmother collected Social Security benefits for years, as as far as I could tell, her experience wasn't anything like slavery either.

You may not realize it, but the vast majority of people in America who are "on the dole" are white people.

I guess we should forget about all that reality stuff, and just vilify any black person who receives government benefits. because it's just another form of slavery if a black person benefits from the program.

You should really read a few books and watch some documentaries about slavery in America, because you obviously have no appreciation or comprehension of how horrific the experience actually was. If you had even the slightest bit of compassion, empathy, or basic respect for other human beings, you would never dare to equate the horrors of slavery with your political disagreement of how government benefits should be apportioned.

When Google searching I've found a couple sources that contradict the statement "the vast majority of people in America who are "on the dole" are white people."

I do agree that "slavery" probably isn't the proper word. Living for free without having to work is nothing like living with no free will and no compensation for forced labor in a system where your motivations were torture.

For many folks, welfare is a safety net to help their family until they can get a job. For some folks it is a system to be fully exploited.

That's why I'm for sensible limits to welfare. It will stop people from abusing the system, and still allow the safety net to be there.


There's a guy that I work with that is extremely conservative. He fully subscribes to nearly every right-wing narrative including Iraq War justification, Obama-hating, and welfare hating. He and I were talking and I was shocked that he revealed that he went through a bankruptcy a few years ago. I wanted to ask him if he felt that legally dissolving his debts and forcing society to pay them felt like a form a welfare, but I didn't want to damage our friendship and thought better of it.


As to the original topic of creating ghettos, I'm sure there's a lot of blame to pass around. White folks made racist policies that concentrated and impoverished minorities. Welfare has created a situation for some [[but not all or perhaps not even most) recipients are disincentivized from trying, because trying won't get them too far ahead of where they are when they don't try. Also, the rate at which poor people [[black, white, and whatever) reproduce is higher than middle class folks.

While know why we got here is important, I think it's more important to figure out a way to move forward. The housing crisis will probably help, as poverty is now less concentrated. Poor folks now have access to better city services and better schools. A poor black family can move out of Detroit into the sprawlberg of Warren and stop fearing crime, have access to functioning schools, and concentrate on improving themselves instead of the most basic of needs.

If Detroit can start fixing the neighborhoods [[which I think\hope is starting to happen), we can allow more folks to rise out of poverty.

We also need more education and early intervention for kids that are at risk. We need to get these kids basic financial skills, lots of education about how to avoid and the consequences of unwanted pregnancy. Combine this with some welfare reforms and I think a lot of folks could break the cycle.

This really isn't a black problem, it's a poverty issue. Black people are disproportionately poor, but when you concentrate white people in poverty, you get the same results.

[believe14]

This really isn't a black problem, it's a poverty issue. Black people are disproportionately poor, but when you concentrate white people in poverty, you get the same results.

Complete bull. There are numerous white majority towns in Michigan with per capita incomes equal to or lower than Flint and Detroit and they're not violent crime war zones. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michiga..._capita_income

[Scottathew]

Complete bull. There are numerous white majority towns in Michigan with per capita incomes equal to or lower than Flint and Detroit and they're not violent crime war zones. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michiga..._capita_income

This coming from a person the broad-brush categorizes black people into good and bad, fit and unfit categories?

People who are poor and concentrated into densely populated areas generally behave the same regardless of race. It just so happens that white people did a really great job of concentrating black people [[by not allowing them to move into desirable areas) and keeping them impoverished through hundreds of years of slavery, reduced rights, racism, and inequality. Some of this inequality still lives on today.

[gvidas]

This seems like circular logic to me.

You cannot separate the current state of black Americans from the ~400 years of white supremacy leading up to today, because there has never been even a full generation of black Americans who were born, grew up, and started their own families free of the effects of systemic disenfranchisement.

To be clear, in recent history the methods have been increasingly subtle: Jim Crow / "separate but equal" eases into redlining, which is in turn replaced by mandatory minimum prison sentences for nonviolent drug offenses, systemic disinvestment in schools and other public infrastructure, voter ID laws, etc.

To then justify that continued oppression by saying: "well, white people in similar circumstances don't live like that" strikes me as self-perpetuating.

Accumulating wealth in America is something families do across several generations -- that's the American dream in a nutshell, right? To give a better life to your children than you had yourself? For the past few generations, the main method for this accumulation was home ownership: invest in your daily life in a way that increases in value over time.

Except, as the original video illustrates, for black Americans.

The other main avenue to accumulating wealth over successive generations is business ownership. Starting a business requires access to money -- usually, either through existing family resources, a small business loan, a line of credit/mortgage on your house, etc. Except for those without a home to mortgage, or a family with money, or a neighborhood that lenders are willing to invest in.

And, yes, many black people [[Obama, Jay-Z, Oprah, etc) have managed to succeed despite this. But that doesn't prove the system is fair; it just shows that human beings are occasionally exceptional. To paraphrase Thurgood Marshall, the definition of justice that we're supposedly operating under says the game is rigged if even one black child, who would have succeeded in better circumstances, is denied that opportunity.

The point of all this for me isn't to have a pity party, it's to begin to be honest about the idea that "everyone in America gets a fair chance." Some people are given a lot more chances, and others a lot more hurdles; and the more I look at this, the more it appears to be deliberate.

[believe14]

Japanese were in camps during WWII, Cubans and Nigerians come here and prosper. The excuses and accountability deflection never end.

[antongast]

Japanese were in camps during WWII, Cubans and Nigerians come here and prosper. The excuses and accountability deflection never end.

Your first sentence is a remarkably on-point example of your second.

[Dan Wesson]

I want you to know that all my comments above have been about people I see everyday. They happen to be white.

I tend to look at the bigger picture. There are powers that are happy to see what should be a common people fight amongst themselves. Keeps their attention from the real players.

48307 said it much better than I, but we are on the same page. The only thing I could add is that you don't need to pack the poor into densely populated areas to get all the negative stuff. You should see it in the backwoods.

Oh, the slavery thing, that came from comments and blogs some conservative men of color are making recently and which I agree. Could mind control be considered a tool of slavery if you are willing to expand your scope of manipulating people.

Slavery as part of the history of three continents, the results of slavery, there is no question.

Let's not forget the American Indian.

[GUSHI]

wow this is getting old, black have come along way, look who's in the White House, look who the mayor of detroit, I couldn't image that 10 years ago, people have to stop livng in the fkn past, when my parent came over they were discrimnted against, they are white. Waps, dagos micks, boaters, sand n....s, trailer trash, are all hurtful words, sick of hearing the same old shyt, Yes there are a lot of aa in jail, a lot are poor, a lot deal drugs, a lot work the system, the same can be said fr whites, there are a lot of poor lazy people who work the system that has nothing to do with race.

[GUSHI]

Wetback, etc etc

[GUSHI]

Oh by the way europe and Middle East also have ghettos. So does South America, I guess black wants people to feel sorry for them I don't , live in the present not the past.

[Cliffy]

Oh by the way europe and Middle East also have ghettos. So does South America, I guess black wants people to feel sorry for them I don't , live in the present not the past.

I totally agree. My family wasn't in this country during the slave era and I have nothing to do with slavery so don't go pointing fingers at me to feel sorry. Its funny though that Nigerians come to this country who are dirt poor and go to school and become doctors etc... in a pretty high percentage and none of them cry racism and the white man kept my people down in 1855. If Nigerians can come to this country and be black and speak broken English and still be successful, no excuse for a black person born in this country to be a complete loser unless they want to be a complete loser. My Nigerian co-workers always mention how blacks in Detroit have school at their fingertips and just blow it. If you want a hard life, go to Nigeria.

[GUSHI]

most immigrants came to this country for a reason, to escape prosecution , religous freedom , etc etc etc, I can bet you my life it was easier for a black person born in this country, that could speak English, than it was for a immigrant to cross have the globe, and not know the language. my dad's family came with less the $100 bucks in there pocket, and made something if himself, I'm just sick of excuses.

[canuck]

There are plenty of successful A Afro-Americans in all walks of life. The problem is that for a long time most of them were considered beneath the lower end of European immigrants. it didn't matter that some had achieved distinction in medicine or the arts...

So yes, this is getting old, always be old, and won't be resolved next week unfortunately.

[GUSHI]

I disagree, a lot of the American thought the same of new arrivals and aa, shyt my dad was more worried about polish than aa, when he came over, he lived around hamtramck which was a polish enclave, and they did not like outsiders, they harassed the new arrivals, my mom was harassed by aa on the bus, even getting in fist fights, just because she was a immigrant, the only difference is they didn't sit around and bitch about, they worked saved money bought cars and homes, penny I pinched in the process, because they didn't wanna go back were they came from, more immigrants came in the 70s from the area country my parents are from, they fought back, made something of themselves, no one gave them shyt, no foodstamps , no fkn welfare, the problem is we give people rewards for being lazy, and working the system, that's the problem, who owns most of the party stores and coneys in detroit not aa, but 1st generation immigrants, the party stores are Chaldean owned, the coneys albanian owned, why is that? Because they worked there ass off to become something. I.m not talking about downtown I'm talking about all the other areas..

There are plenty of successful A Afro-Americans in all walks of life. The problem is that for a long time most of them were considered beneath the lower end of European immigrants. it didn't matter that some had achieved distinction in medicine or the arts...

So yes, this is getting old, always be old, and won't be resolved next week unfortunately.

[Wesley Mouch]

There is a pathology in the black, urban ghettos. Its denial is one of the great shames of African American society. This denial has and is preventing solutions.

I find it odd that some here shout loudly about how racist the world is -- and how deeply in denial whites are about race. I see the denial of the root causes in a similar way. I don't know why we all can't accept that the urban ghettos are unacceptable -- and they are not the products of racism. Racism exists. And it is a problem. But its nowhere near the root cause of our urban ghetto problems.

[believe14]

Spot on. It doesn't take a genius to see what Gary, South Chicago, Benton Harbor, Detroit and Flint have in common; concentrated unfit former southern migrants who repeat the same dysfunctional behavior generation after generation. Nobody wants to see people down. There's no conspiracy. There's no system wide racism. We want people to function. We want people to contribute to the economy. Not on the public dole from cradle to the grave, committing crimes and lowering property values.

[Dan Wesson]

Check out this 10-minute video about the Contract Buyer's League, via The Atlantic. It describes a movement organized '68 in Chicago in protest against exploitative housing contracts. In short, federal policies prevented black people from getting mortgages. Seeing a captive market, speculators bought houses and "sold" them to black families at double the price, under contract terms where after any default on payment the property would return to the seller's possession.

http://www.theatlantic.com/video/ind...buyers-league/

Sounds a lot like what we call "buying on land contract." Am I jumping to conclusions, or did this happen here also?

"white folks created the ghetto"


Hmmmm, nothing racist about that proclamation. Something from 40 years ago dredged up for consumption today. No denying it, nope not at all.

But it appears that them same white devils didn't turn a deaf ear.

They did try to rectify the situation...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act

A lot to wade through reading it.

I'm not to sure about the outcome though considering what's happening nowadays.

It's not like they ain't trying. Their doing everything they can short of giving houses out "Free". If they did, would neighborhoods get all spiffed up and kept that way by the happy campers?

You can lead a horse to water, can you make him drink?

[Dan Wesson]

Spot on. It doesn't take a genius to see what Gary, South Chicago, Benton Harbor, Detroit and Flint have in common; concentrated unfit former southern migrants who repeat the same dysfunctional behavior generation after generation.

Hey now. I resemble that remark! Just because we drink too much and laugh too loud, us Scotch Irish hillbillies ain't all that. That's right, I'm half hillbilly and half human.

Nobody wants to see people down. There's no conspiracy.
There's no system wide racism.

I will disagree with that. There is. You maybe able to fade into the background in white america. Don't think that every one can.

We want people to function. We want people to contribute to the economy. Not on the public dole from cradle to the grave, committing crimes and lowering property values.

Hear! Hear!
Toss off the chains of substandard housing, barely enough food, no money, idle days and wasted lives. Show them white devils you don't need 'em.
Tell 'em they can take all that free shit and put it where the sun don't shine.

P.S. I ain't talking about widows, kids, the sick and infirm. Those who have paid into workmens comp and unemployment insurance. Those who have paid SS taxes their working lives.

Hell now that I'm at it. The same goes for corporate America's welfare queens. Make your money the old fashioned way... Earn it!

[Dan Wesson]

You know what threw me for a loop. It was Mwilbert a few posts back equating the loss of something Free [[as in the loss of food stamps, opps I mean SNAP)with a Tax burden on that hapless beneficiary.

That is some real "semantic shifting" going on there. It took me a while to figure that one out. It sounds like government speak. I can hear it now, bandied about at a DHS training seminar.

I guess it's all in which side of the pumpkin your looking at. The nice smooth side or the grungy one.

[Cliffy]

There is a pathology in the black, urban ghettos. Its denial is one of the great shames of African American society. This denial has and is preventing solutions.

I find it odd that some here shout loudly about how racist the world is -- and how deeply in denial whites are about race. I see the denial of the root causes in a similar way. I don't know why we all can't accept that the urban ghettos are unacceptable -- and they are not the products of racism. Racism exists. And it is a problem. But its nowhere near the root cause of our urban ghetto problems.

There is a big denial in the black urban community. Education is not used as a vehicle to move ahead. You don't know how damn lucky we are in this country to have free education up until 12th grade and then anyone can go to college. There are community colleges, various grants, loans etc... Again no excuse. So many chances given to everyone in this country and people would rather just throw it away. Also, enough with all the "White racists" on this board. There are just as many and if not more black racists out there. Racism isn't a 1 way street. Too many threads in here act like the white man is keeping Detroit down and its my fault over slavery when my family hasn't been in this country 50 years.

[That Great Guy]

Anyone can admit that's it's ironic that a housing meltdown caused the largest integration of people of all races throughout the Detriot metro area.

Racist assholes that used communities to divide us have witnessed those barriers crumble greatly, LOL, I think that's awesome!

Next August, Property Taxes will be raised by Mr. John of SMART by a whopping 40 percent.

If only the public knew that a vote of NO only defeats the increase

It is Ponzi schemes, fraud and scare tactics and large freeway projects without drivers paying for them that is helping to divide the Poor and Rich Soon Sales taxes will pay for Brooks Patterson's big car and people like Kwame.

Maybe the poor will become SMART someday. It is as easy as googling save the fuel tax org


And getting Mr. John Hertel on television to debate me, before he jacks up the cost of housing with more taxes again. And again?

[NoHeartAnthony]

I have been meaning to bust out the pie chart I made up that says if you use the terms "dole", "race card", or "mooch"... you're a proud dog-whistling racist.

[NoHeartAnthony]

You do realize even though your ancestors weren't plantation owners, you've still benefited from being a part of the majority class?

And nobody thinks Indians are the model minority in Dubai and **** where the Indian immigrants are indentured servants working construction. The model minority theory is just something racists like to use to tell themselves that it's black people's[[or the Algerians, or the South Asians, or the Turks, or whatever despised group is in your locale) own fault that they are poor because wink wink nudge nudge genetic inferiority.

[Dan Wesson]

You do realize even though your ancestors weren't plantation owners, you've still benefited from being a part of the majority class?

And nobody thinks Indians are the model minority in Dubai and **** where the Indian immigrants are indentured servants working construction. The model minority theory is just something racists like to use to tell themselves that it's black people's[[or the Algerians, or the South Asians, or the Turks, or whatever despised group is in your locale) own fault that they are poor because wink wink nudge nudge genetic inferiority.

The model minority theory is just something racists like to use to tell themselves that it's black people'sown fault that they are poor because wink wink nudge nudge genetic inferiority.


I don't think that.

Nature vs. Nurture, another can of worms.