M-1 to break ground this summer

[Honky Tonk]

Why they hell are you calling it Blight Rail? What does blight have anything to do with it? This isn't running down Hamilton...anyway, I didn't say it was a good transit system I said, why are some illiterate people [[a small percentage of the overall 4 million+ region) suddenly disqualify us from having a good system? This can be a good system, if we let it become a good system. Instead we're all sitting around ridiculing this without anything constructive. We NEED a transit system [[amongst other things). If we want to be an atrrative, vibrant city, we need this. Or we can continue to be stagnant and provincial.

We do need a GOOD transit system, but this certainly isn't it. For the third time, the RTA has been disbanded until further notice. [[you know, the people that were in charge of putting a GOOD transit system in Metro-Detroit) The Blight Rail is nothing more then a money grab to add a choo-choo to the Gilbert-Ilitchville Snowtown. It'll only serve a minority of people, and is being put in so one of them can say "Look we have one just like the other guys". $140 mil for that, another $350 mil in donations for the stadium, another $60 mil in bonuses if "Midtown develops", another $6 mil to tear down Joe Louis Arena. Do you want to know why Detroit is stagnant and provincial? Because we just keep repeating the same mistakes over and over, but with a new twist! [[see "People Remover") Taxpayers keep putting their money in the hands of clowns who have a track record of lining their own pockets.

[ghettopalmetto]

not one person here is disagreeing with the idea that we need a good transit system. The single point being raised is with M1 not only are we not getting it, we're not getting any closer to getting it. We're getting a trolley that will barely serve even a "small percentage of the overall 4+ million region".

Understood. Would it be fantastic if this was just the first shovel-in-the-ground for a region-wide rail transit system? Absolutely.

But DTOGS got mucked the hell up. And SEMCOG is pushing Sexybus. So really, the people who need to hear from you are SEMCOG and your state legislators and Gov. Snyder, as the toothless RTA no longer exists.

Here's the upshot:

As a standard-gauge rail transit project, using proven technology, M-1 Rail can be expanded in the future [[unlike the DPM). It can be lengthened. Track switches can be installed. The same vehicles can be run over other standard-gauge track that may be constructed in the future. New vehicles can be operated on the M-1 Rail track. It's completely compatible with future expansion, and completely compatible with vehicles and technology that vendors *already know how to manufacture and service*.

The real problem is, the state and local governments have been punting on a long-term transit development plan. They'll gladly dust off an outdated, 20-year-old plan to widen I-94, but sit slack-jawed when it comes to transit. It seems most everyone is relying on SEMCOG's ham-handed Sexybus plan, with Mystery Source of Operating Funds to be identified by Someone Else. If your elected leaders ever sacked-up, an integrated system of streetcar / light-rail / regional rail would go a long way toward increasing mobility--and attracting development--in the region.

[dtowncitylover]

not one person here is disagreeing with the idea that we need a good transit system. The single point being raised is with M1 not only are we not getting it, we're not getting any closer to getting it. We're getting a trolley that will barely serve even a "small percentage of the overall 4+ million region".

How can you say we're not any closer to getting it? This is the closest we've come! 40 years of feudal fighting about transit and suddenly when true progress is here, it's mocked! This can definitely be extended into Highland Park and to State Fair. New lines can be added. It seems you all think this is going to be another Washington Blvd trolley. It isn't, it's a modern streetcar that will work well in the city center. Streetcars aren't meant to travel to 30 Mile Rd. If you want transit there lobby your reps and SEMCOG for commuter rail. Just like Rome, transit can't be built in a day. I wish Detroit could set its sights higher, but then again, this is Detroit and I'm not surprised.

[believe14]

not one person here is disagreeing with the idea that we need a good transit system. The single point being raised is with M1 not only are we not getting it, we're not getting any closer to getting it. We're getting a trolley that will barely serve even a "small percentage of the overall 4+ million region".

Correct. Knowing the M-1 is a boondoggle =/= hating Detroit or public transportation. That said, the faster trains for the Chicago - Ann Arbor - Metro Detroit Amtrak line is about the only major public transport project I'd support until Detroit cleans up the more important issues.

This idea is a joke. The planning stages are a joke. The groundbreaking is a joke. It's all pure Detroit. People keep saying Detroit is changing, that "this time the rebirth is different." Well, this is giving anybody older than 20 y.o. a whole lotta déjà vu.

[Honky Tonk]

How can you say we're not any closer to getting it? This is the closest we've come! 40 years of feudal fighting about transit and suddenly when true progress is here, it's mocked! This can definitely be extended into Highland Park and to State Fair. New lines can be added. It seems you all think this is going to be another Washington Blvd trolley. It isn't, it's a modern streetcar that will work well in the city center. Streetcars aren't meant to travel to 30 Mile Rd. If you want transit there lobby your reps and SEMCOG for commuter rail. Just like Rome, transit can't be built in a day. I wish Detroit could set its sights higher, but then again, this is Detroit and I'm not surprised.

As long as the yupsters don't have to walk to their local watering hole, and MORE sports fans can park further out and be Blight Railed in to the stadium, we're golden. The guy who's standing on Grand River in Brightmoor, for the last hour, waiting for a bus to take him to his $9 an hour job? Well, he should sign the online petition to increase his tax milage because there is no money left for a real transit system. I wonder why Detroit is so stagnant and provincial?

[dtowncitylover]

As long as the yupsters don't have to walk to their local watering hole, and MORE sports fans can park further out and be Blight Railed in to the stadium, we're golden. The guy who's standing on Grand River in Brightmoor, for the last hour, waiting for a bus to take him to his $9 an hour job? Well, he should sign the online petition to increase his tax milage because there is no money left for a real transit system. I wonder why Detroit is so stagnant and provincial?

Are you kidding me? This isn't golden. I want that man to able to have access to this, but how can he have access if people don't want it built?

This can be a key instrument in the economic growth for the city which will lead to more jobs and workers, more residents, better and higher tax revenue which in turn can lead to better funding for buses and other transit projects.

[Mackinaw]

Furthermore, there are vastly greater uses of $140M.

Do you always tell private investors what they should do? Some of the same investors just got JP Morgan to invest another $100M in Detroit. Hope you're on the line telling them how to spend too. This is about the whiniest, lamest line of reasoning available to those in your camp.

Spurn the money! Keep Detroit third world!!!

Ps, a general point which someone here has already made: 3.3 miles is a LOT of city. It's just not a huge proportion of Detroit. In NYC, this would link World Trade Ctr. to Penn Station. Further, historically, rail and street rail transit has not been built in one fell swoop. Don't hate the $140 M investors for not going to 8-Mile or not covering Jefferson Ave. and Grand River Ave., too. Hopefully that follows. But for now, there is something to be said for encouraging consolidation into a transit served area. The area between the freeways and south of EGBlvd. can easily triple its density-- basically restoring its pre-1960 density of people and buildings and radically improving the livability and safety of the oldest parts of the city. Restoring rail connectivity between the most important parts of the city only accelerates this. Just the prospect of it has spurred major and in-progress private sector residential investment in midtown. ...and the rest of the city will be no worse off, but will only have more long-term tax revenue, investor confidence, and leverage via which new transit can be built. Those who care about putting city-wide and regional transit in place are NOT going to abate just because M1 gets built.

[bailey]

Do you always tell private investors what they should do? Some of the same investors just got JP Morgan to invest another $100M in Detroit. Hope you're on the line telling them how to spend too. This is about the whiniest, lamest line of reasoning available to those in your camp.

Spurn the money! Keep Detroit third world!!!

When private investors are demanding to 100% control a public resource, FUCK YES we [[taxpayers) should be able to tell them what to do.

I'm having trouble with my scorecard here, maybe you and GhettoP can help me out... I've got Illitch and the Fords in the "evil billionaires sucking at the public teat, privatize gains, subsidize risk" column for the whole Ford Field, CoPA, Hockeyville thing. They're in that column because I was led to believe it's practically Nazi level evil to give over urban planning and any subsidy to billionaires to dictate a plan or profit from an investment in those massive undertakings.

I just assumed Gilbert et al would go in the same column as we've apparently given over total control of public transport planning and a truck load of cash to subsidize a parking shuttle to get their employees and game day visitors from far flung parking decks to the stadium and/or office's front door and increase the value of their [[Rock Ventures especially) real estate portfolios..

Apparently Illitch could be elevated to white knight hero of he kicks in a few million to the trolley? The trolley that will be the tax payer's problem in 10 years...

End of the day, I really don't give a shit. I'll be on that trolley because I work and play in the green zone it'll serve. I'm just glad we've all dropped the charade that this does fuck all for the people that desperately need transit to be fixed or has any effect on transit regionally.

[believe14]

I'll never ride the trolley as I don't accept sporting or concert tickets without a parking pass and I've never parked more than two blocks from work downtown. Nor would I have time to waste or an interest in standing in the elements to wait for a trolley to save a fraction of what I pay to park near those establishments. I guess this will let all of those Wayne State philosophy students get to all of those Wings game they go to?

[believe14]

WOW @ the wishful thinking of this being phase 1 of many. It took 7 years and at best won't be done for another 2? 9 years per phase... perhaps your grandkids will enjoy it. Looking at the DPS meap test trends, your grandchildren won't be riding it to any professional jobs.

[dtowncitylover]

Ah finally it is revealed, though not unsurprisingly, that believe14 [[I'm beginning to wonder what he actually believes in, not much apparently) is the old guard suburbanite. I mean, it's a bit snobbish to refuse tickets just because you have to pay to park or god forbid walk two blocks from a lot. If it doesn't help me here at 30 Mile or if it helps Detroit, then why should I support it?

You can say you "support" Detroit, but then you make snide comments towards DPS and priding in the fact you never go downtown without a parking pass, and you lose alot of credibility saying you support the city.

[stasu1213]

Understood. Would it be fantastic if this was just the first shovel-in-the-ground for a region-wide rail transit system? Absolutely.

But DTOGS got mucked the hell up. And SEMCOG is pushing Sexybus. So really, the people who need to hear from you are SEMCOG and your state legislators and Gov. Snyder, as the toothless RTA no longer exists.

Here's the upshot:

As a standard-gauge rail transit project, using proven technology, M-1 Rail can be expanded in the future [[unlike the DPM). It can be lengthened. Track switches can be installed. The same vehicles can be run over other standard-gauge track that may be constructed in the future. New vehicles can be operated on the M-1 Rail track. It's completely compatible with future expansion, and completely compatible with vehicles and technology that vendors *already know how to manufacture and service*.

The real problem is, the state and local governments have been punting on a long-term transit development plan. They'll gladly dust off an outdated, 20-year-old plan to widen I-94, but sit slack-jawed when it comes to transit. It seems most everyone is relying on SEMCOG's ham-handed Sexybus plan, with Mystery Source of Operating Funds to be identified by Someone Else. If your elected leaders ever sacked-up, an integrated system of streetcar / light-rail / regional rail would go a long way toward increasing mobility--and attracting development--in the region.

I will believe it when I see the first shovel dug into the ground. The report had failed to tell us what part of the Summer work will begin. De ja vue of last year. Woodward is a State road. Snyder's road as well as those republicans who are in the legislature. They will stall this until after the November election.

[Honky Tonk]

Are you kidding me? This isn't golden. I want that man to able to have access to this, but how can he have access if people don't want it built?

This can be a key instrument in the economic growth for the city which will lead to more jobs and workers, more residents, better and higher tax revenue which in turn can lead to better funding for buses and other transit projects.

Are you kidding ME? Do you honestly think the magic choo-choo is designed with that guy in mind? Here, pass that over and let me have a hit.

[Hermod]

I'll never ride the trolley as I don't accept sporting or concert tickets without a parking pass and I've never parked more than two blocks from work downtown. Nor would I have time to waste or an interest in standing in the elements to wait for a trolley to save a fraction of what I pay to park near those establishments. I guess this will let all of those Wayne State philosophy students get to all of those Wings game they go to?

They can do the downtown bars and get home without a DUI.

[dtowncitylover]

Are you kidding ME? Do you honestly think the magic choo-choo is designed with that guy in mind? Here, pass that over and let me have a hit.

I just don't understand why you seem to think this is the same thing as the Washington Trolley. It isn't. The modern streetcar is a viable form of mass transit that has the ability to move people, like that hypothetical man, from point A to point B. It may not happen right now, but it can with enough support and funding.

[Honky Tonk]

I just don't understand why you seem to think this is the same thing as the Washington Trolley. It isn't. The modern streetcar is a viable form of mass transit that has the ability to move people, like that hypothetical man, from point A to point B. It may not happen right now, but it can with enough support and funding.

What's your definition of "enough"? Did you hear the interview on NPR today? They don't have "enough" funding for roads and bridges, they don't have "enough" funding for deccent buses. How much more taxing do you think working people can absorb? Do you have any idea what it'll cost to lay track and necessary infrastructure for this "viable" transportation? Meanwhile, the guy in Brightmoor is STILL waiting for a bus.

[ghettopalmetto]

Ghetto Palmetto inviting you aboard his light rail.

Attachment 23529

I find your sense of nostalgia endearing.

This is what a modern streetcar looks like in a modern city:

Operating along the roadway:


Making a stop:


Signage indicating the next several arrivals:


Ticket vending machine:


Validating a ticket:


Digital route maps, continuously updated with travel times to each stop:

[ABetterDetroit]

Didn't you guys learn not to argue with the "I don't want to go girl"? It's never her money, she will spend all night telling her friends why they can't go and even when somebody talks her along she will just ruin a good time anyway.

[Bham1982]

I just don't understand why you seem to think this is the same thing as the Washington Trolley. It isn't. The modern streetcar is a viable form of mass transit that has the ability to move people, like that hypothetical man, from point A to point B. It may not happen right now, but it can with enough support and funding.

How is this project, in any way, different from the Washington Blvd. trolley? Both are slow-moving, street-running, with numerous stops, and designed as tourist/visitor circulators rather than rapid transit.

[Bham1982]

I find your sense of nostalgia endearing.

This is what a modern streetcar looks like in a modern city:

Unfortunately, Detroit isn't getting such a system. This system is separated from traffic, with widely spaced stations and is an actual rapid transit system designed for commuters. It isn't a choo-choo for barhoppers from Shelby Twp.

[Honky Tonk]

Unfortunately, Detroit isn't getting such a system. This system is separated from traffic, with widely spaced stations and is an actual rapid transit system designed for commuters. It isn't a choo-choo for barhoppers from Shelby Twp.

Or part of some imaginary metro rapid transit system. It's designed to feed tourists into Ilitch-Land, and, it's looking like, @ taxpayer expense.

[Honky Tonk]

Didn't you guys learn not to argue with the "I don't want to go girl"? It's never her money, she will spend all night telling her friends why they can't go and even when somebody talks her along she will just ruin a good time anyway.

Or don't argue with the "Daddy, I want a new pony" princess.

[Hermod]

I find your sense of nostalgia endearing.

This is what a modern streetcar looks like in a modern city:

What they get in Detroit after "friends and family" get their cut:

Attachment 23555

[ghettopalmetto]

Unfortunately, Detroit isn't getting such a system. This system is separated from traffic, with widely spaced stations and is an actual rapid transit system designed for commuters.

Is that so? When was the last time you rode the trams in Warsaw? I find it fascinating that you can discern the stop spacing and operating speeds of the Warsaw ZTM trams based on a handful of photographs.

Is Detroit getting an entire region-wide [[or even city-wide) network of such a system? No. Is Detroit getting the FIRST THREE MILES of such a system? Yes. Are they getting it gratis? Yes.

When you have zero political will, refuse to elect competent legislators, and refuse to tax yourselves for transit, then you really have no recourse when a couple frustrated billionaires TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES to give you the beginnings of competent transit.

The defenders of the status quo will stop at nothing to make excuses for their laziness, will they?

[believe14]

Is that so? When was the last time you rode the trams in Warsaw?

Is Detroit getting an entire region-wide [[or even city-wide) network of such a system? No. Is Detroit getting the FIRST THREE MILES of such a system? Yes. Are they getting it gratis? Yes.

When you have zero political will, refuse to elect competent legislators, and refuse to tax yourselves for transit, then you really have no recourse when a couple frustrated billionaires TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES to give you the beginnings of competent transit.

The defenders of the status quo will stop at nothing to make excuses for their laziness, will they?

The billionaires have had 7 years and per the article do not have the money. So much for the excitement for this thing. It's a Detroit boondoggle man.