Groups plan Belle Isle rally to protest 'aggressive treatment of citizens'

[Honky Tonk]

Nice post Al, how dare you not fall in line with the other Nazi's. Democracy be damned!

I really like and totally agree with your "Nazi" analogy. Detroit has been under "Nazi" siege for the last 50 some years. Personal property has been confiscated, City culture destroyed, City architecture left in ruins, City coiffures pillaged, senseless murders occurring in broad daylight on the streets, leaving Detroit resembling war torn Poland or France. Lately, an attempt is being made by the "Nazi's" to loot the City's art. Those, with the means, escaped, by crossing the borders, some stayed, carrying on the resistance. I for one welcome the Allied Forces. Hopefully, they'll be able to the turn tide against the "Nazi" regime.

[Zacha341]

Yes, a warrant is easier to acquire than some think and are often driving related. I am by no means making excuses, but I believe the tacit thought for some [[who knowingly drive with warrants) is that the DPD being busy wont stop them. They could drive under the radar. Now with the blue boys [[state troopers) on the isle that IS over. I have a brake light that's out as of this week. I best stay away from there until I have it fixed, I don't want the hassle even though my driving credentials are tight, 'right' and up to date.

Heck I had a warrant out for my arrest. My son used a car registered to me and racked up many many parking tickets at grosse pointe south high school. As I worked, he would throw the mail out. When a police officer came to arrest me at home [[I was at work) it rattled my youngest so he told me immediately, made a court appearance and paid the fines. One might think the judge would have deducted the fines because I was blameless but no, it about the money. Most warrants are about un paid fines.

[Hermod]

An example of heavy handedness is a neighbor walked down the street good flattened to the ground from behind. They were cuffing him but grudgingly let him show id. Mistaken identity, no hand up , no sorry dude. Probably they were sorry they couldn't cuff him up on some other warrant.

Frivolous warrant. Heck I had a warrant out for my arrest. My son used a car registered to me and racked up many many parking tickets at grosse pointe south high school. As I worked, he would throw the mail out. When a police officer came to arrest me at home [[I was at work) it rattled my youngest so he told me immediately, made a court appearance and paid the fines. One might think the judge would have deducted the fines because I was blameless but no, it about the money. Most warrants are about un paid fines.

In the first paragraph, the police obviously did wrong. When the cops truly "blow it out their ass" in a case of mistaken identity, the apologies up and down the line should be immediate and sincere. Depending on the level of harm suffered by the innocent, a courtesy visit and apology on the part of the shift lieutenant, precinct captain, or someone from the head office up to and including the chief [[depending on how badly the police screwed up) should be obligatory.

In the second paragraph, you were definitely the party in the wrong and justice was served [[as noted justice completing the circle should have included a raw, red behind for your son).

[Django]

I think you may be having a hard time understanding this as a class issue -- and, to a lesser extent, as a race issue.

To be poor is almost by definition to not have the same resources and choices as other people.

But when you have money, you are a lot less likely to get warrants for your arrest. Bear in mind, you can have a warrant for something as piddly as not paying a ticket. When you have money, you pay your tickets. And when you have money in the first place, you don't get those tickets for broken turn signals, busted headlights and missing mirrors that people living paycheck-to-paycheck do. So there you go: Live poor for a year and you can rack up a few warrants because, first you couldn't pay to fix the problem, now you can't pay the ticket you got for not fixing the problem.

And people are messed up all over, not just in the city. It's just that people with money have the privilege of papering over a lot of the social problems that we all have, whether it's an alcoholic family member, a relative with a gambling problem, or a neighborhood kid who's up to no good. Having money means you can lock horns with the system a lot more effectively.

People with money commit crimes, but they are harder to arrest and jail. Having money means you can do illegal drugs in your secure, gated homes, someplace police would think twice about bursting through the door. Heck, having money means you can pull off grander, white-collar crimes, and walk away from a shell of a corporation scot-free.

And, frankly, Detroit police have a justice system that is strained to the breaking point because it's so full of poor people who do whatever it takes to get by. These prisons aren't full of hardened, grizzled criminals so much as not-very-bright people who don't have the means to fight their cases. And police know this, and so, for years, I don't think they've been really proactive about running every guy with a warrant downtown. Right or wrong, it's a decision based on realities that are much more troubling.

And that's just class. There's a whole other layer of race. There are long-demonstrated biases that result from institutional racism.

So, when I heard these calls to "enforce the law fairly and equally," I am reminded of that quote from Anatole France: "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids both the rich and poor to steal bread and sleep under bridges."

In other words, the laws are against things poor people might have to do to get by, and things that the rich would never have to dream of. Right? It's funny! Mike Duggan is never going to get a warrant for not paying a traffic ticket. But a lot of poor people will.

And that's fucked up, people. Striking a pose of equality while knowing that the poor people you don't like are gonna get ground down nice and hard by this is a shitty attitude, and it's indicative of the deep class and race divisions in our region. Oh, not that anybody who feels that way will ever admit to it. There's a very Frank Rizzo-like thing about it in that way: Some people rubbing their hands over socking it to society's losers while talking about fairness and equality...

Anyway, feel free to dismiss me or write me off. I know you will. But hear me out: If I never say another word about it, you haven't heard the last about this "fair and equal" treatment of Detroit residents on Belle Isle.

Most articulate post.

[313WX]

I really like and totally agree with your "Nazi" analogy. Detroit has been under "Nazi" siege for the last 50 some years...City culture destroyed, City architecture left in ruins, City coiffures pillaged, senseless murders occurring in broad daylight on the streets, leaving Detroit resembling war torn Poland or France.

Well what else would happen when 1.2 Million People just up and decide to leave town and leave behind a disproportionally high amount of poor/undereducated people?

I'm pretty sure things would be a whole lot different if majority of those 1.2 Million People never left. See NYC, Chicago, Philadelphia, etc.

[Wesley Mouch]

What both you and Gladwell leave out of this narrative are the huge resentments that eventually arose from this enforcement strategy. Bratton himself was actually quite sensitive to these concerns, and made community relations and changes in hiring practices part of his strategy.

But later police commissioners were less sensitive, and as the number of people kept in jail on petty charges grew [[disproportionately black, even amongst those who were stopped by police), and the number of confrontations between police and citizens grew, the tensions rose. By the time of the Amadou Diallo shooting [[shot 19 times by police, out of 41 bullets fired, for 'scaring' officers by taking out his wallet to get his apartment door key) the city was truly on edge. Cooler heads prevailed, but I lived in NYC at the time and it was very close to being very ugly.

Although economic and demographic changes have swept and calmed the city since then [[the opposite of what has happened in Detroit), tensions between minority communities and the police and the city administration over often petty harassment and a "shoot first and ask questions later" approach have never really gone away. The recent political debate surrounding the so-called "stop and frisk" policy, and the absolute lack of sensitivity shown by the city administration over the concerns of black and Hispanic citizens, was part of the reason for Mayor Bloomberg's deeply declining popularity and Bill DeBlasio's recent resounding win. And DeBlasio has very pointedly brought back William Bratton as police commissioner.

You see outrage. I see urban residents grateful for safer housing and streets.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're wrong. I don't know.

But what im in pretty sure about is that the outrage on more aggressive policing isn't so much driven by the victims of urban crime as by do-gooders who don't live in Harlem or Brightmoor.

[Honky Tonk]

Well what else would happen when 1.2 Million People just up and decide to leave town and leave behind a disproportionally high amount of poor/undereducated people?

I'm pretty sure things would be a whole lot different if majority of those 1.2 Million People never left. See NYC, Chicago, Philadelphia, etc.

Oh, and why did they leave?

[EastsideAl]

I really like and totally agree with your "Nazi" analogy. Detroit has been under "Nazi" siege for the last 50 some years. Personal property has been confiscated, City culture destroyed, City architecture left in ruins, City coiffures pillaged, senseless murders occurring in broad daylight on the streets, leaving Detroit resembling war torn Poland or France. Lately, an attempt is being made by the "Nazi's" to loot the City's art. Those, with the means, escaped, by crossing the borders, some stayed, carrying on the resistance. I for one welcome the Allied Forces. Hopefully, they'll be able to the turn tide against the "Nazi" regime.

You really go way too far sometimes.

[313WX]

Oh, and why did they leave?

Cause vs. effect.

What you described is the effects from them taking their money and leaving [[before it became the negative feedback loop of poor city services and crime we have now, the reasons were for bigger homes in the suburbs and racism), while strategically steering away any future investment from Detroit.

[GUSHI]

riots, kid getting bused to white/black schools, cay

[Honky Tonk]

You really go way too far sometimes.

Am I making this stuff up? I'm sure to someone, like yourself, who's so outraged on paying $11 a year for island access, it would appear so.

[Honky Tonk]

Cause vs. effect.

What you described is the effects from them taking their money and leaving [[before it became the negative feedback loop of poor city services and crime we have now, the reasons were for bigger homes in the suburbs and racism), while strategically steering away any future investment from Detroit.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? That's not true. People "abandoned" Detroit because of the crime that already existed. It accelerated once the ball got rolling, but initially it started because people didn't want to put up with it.

[313WX]

People "abandoned" Detroit because of the crime that already existed.

Prior to the 1967 riots and the 1970s high crime rates, Detroit had already lost 300,000 people.

The reason Jerome Cavanagh implemented the income tax was to make up for the loss of tax revenue from the population decline and the flight of capital that was already ongoing.

[Honky Tonk]

Prior to the 1967 riots and the 1970s high crime rates, Detroit had already lost 300,000 people.

The reason Jerome Cavanagh implemented the income tax was to make up for the loss of tax revenue from the population decline and the flight of capital that was already ongoing.

Effectively shooting himself, [[and Detroit) through the foot. Now crime is climbing, and people are becoming dissatisfied with the lifestyle, and now paying even more tax to live here. Homes are selling in Lincoln Park for $12000, and no or far less City tax. I remember people who left coming back to visit, and talking about "leaving their doors unlocked, possessions outside, and they'd still be there in the morning". As crime followed the exodus, people moved further and further out, trying to live without worry. Once jobs became scarce, people started leaving MI, and there you have it. The cause was crime, the effect was exodus. But let's stick to the original topic "Groups plan Belle Isle rally to protest 'aggressive treatment of citizens' ", and take a look @ what actually IS going on, on Belle Isle.

[Hermod]

Sometimes when you are powerless to change things politically, you "vote with your feet".

[Django]

I will bet this is all going to come to a head in the summer one ugly way or another. .

[Kevgoblue]

In many a thread I've read, as folks went walking down memory lane. Talking of the wonderful times had at Belle Isle. Trips downtown shopping. Tree lined streets.
All those wonderful memories. Why did people start moving out again? Because apparently at that time crime wasn't a major issue.

Maybe it was that Supreme Court ruling that declared restrictive covenants unenforceable, in 1948. http://detroit1701.org/McGheeHome.html#.U3BMGIFdV8E
The city's population stopped growing and between 1950 and 1960 the city lost about a quarter million residents.
Yeah, yeah, I'm aware of plants moving to the suburbs. New Freeways. Federally backed housing loans. But lets be honest and quit trying to deny the fact that a lot of whites did not want to live around blacks.

Hence, the controversy generated around the police presence at Belle Isle now.

[erikd]

Quoted fm Erikd

What heavy-handed enforcement tactics?
The park officers are mostly pulling people over and reminding them that they should not be driving so fast, or informing them about other park rules that they may not be aware of.
a DNR officer stopped them about feeding the geese, which is a valid concern, but not something that I realized was an issue until it was explained.
Are these examples of heavy handed law enforcement techniques? If the officers are mostly pulling people over and simply explaining the laws, then letting people off with a warning, I certainly don't think so...

I agree with you but you have to remember this is Detroit where hyper sensitivity abounds and laws are merely recommendations to pick and choose from and then cry foul should someone try to hold you accountable...In a year from now Belle Isle will be a much better place and experience for all and people who frequent it will adjust to its new and improved status. It will surly be better off than it was 3-5 years ago if you need a yard stick to compare condition and experience.

Does hyper sensitivity actually abound in Detroit? People say that as if it is a fact, but I disagree. If Detroiters were really so hyper sensitive about things like state takeovers and increased law enforcement on Belle Isle, then why are there only a handful of people showing up at these well-publicised protests? There was a public protest in Detroit about the Trayvon Martin case that happened at the same time as the state takeover of Detroit. 1500 people showed up for the Detroit Trayvon Martin protest, but only 50 showed up for the anti-state takeover protest.

The common opinion says that Detroiters are hyper sensitive, but the actions of city residents don't support that assertion.

In reality, Detroiters are just like everybody else. We are reasonable people who want the same basic things as everybody else. Of course, we have cranks and radicals just like everybody else does, but they do not represent the majority opinion of Detroiters, no matter what people have been led to believe.

[Vic01]

I will bet this is all going to come to a head in the summer one ugly way or another. .

and... as with most things that "come to a head", it'll only hurt for a bit and then we'll feel better afterward

[erikd]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? That's not true. People "abandoned" Detroit because of the crime that already existed. It accelerated once the ball got rolling, but initially it started because people didn't want to put up with it.

People did not abandon Detroit because of crime. The rising crime did not start until hundreds of thousands had already left the city. Detroit's crime rates were fairly stable until the mid 1960s, when the crime rates suddenly exploded. Detroit had 102 homicides in 1944, 103 in 1949, 108 in 1954, 106 in 1959, and 125 in 1964. The crime really started to explode in 1965 when the homicide total jumped to 188, and then continued to skyrocket at incredible rates, up to 389 in 1968, 577 in 1972, and 714 in 1974.

According to the Free Press and US Census data, Detroit's population peaked at close to 2 million around 1953. By 1965, Detroit's population was already under 1.6 million. The city of Detroit's population dropped to 1.511 million in the 1970 census, and was down to 1.203 million in the 1990 census.


To put these numbers into perspective, Detroit lost around 400,000 residents in the 12 years just before the crime explosion that started in 1965, but this massive population loss actually slowed down after the crime explosion started. It took more than 25 years AFTER the 1965 crime explosion for Detroit to lose another 400,000 residents.

The population decline of Detroit happened for a number of reasons, but rising crime was not one of them.

[erikd]

I will bet this is all going to come to a head in the summer one ugly way or another. .

That's what a lot of people said when the state appointed an Emergency Manager to take over the city government, which did not have nearly as much support from Detroiters as the state takeover of Belle Isle did.

What makes you so sure that "this is all going to come to a head in the summer one ugly way or another?'

[Wesley Mouch]

People did not abandon Detroit because of crime. The rising crime did not start until hundreds of thousands had already left the city. Detroit's crime rates were fairly stable until the mid 1960s, when the crime rates suddenly exploded. Detroit had 102 homicides in 1944, 103 in 1949, 108 in 1954, 106 in 1959, and 125 in 1964. The crime really started to explode in 1965 when the homicide total jumped to 188, and then continued to skyrocket at incredible rates, up to 389 in 1968, 577 in 1972, and 714 in 1974.

According to the Free Press and US Census data, Detroit's population peaked at close to 2 million around 1953. By 1965, Detroit's population was already under 1.6 million. The city of Detroit's population dropped to 1.511 million in the 1970 census, and was down to 1.203 million in the 1990 census.


To put these numbers into perspective, Detroit lost around 400,000 residents in the 12 years just before the crime explosion that started in 1965, but this massive population loss actually slowed down after the crime explosion started. It took more than 25 years AFTER the 1965 crime explosion for Detroit to lose another 400,000 residents.

The population decline of Detroit happened for a number of reasons, but rising crime was not one of them.

You must not have lived through it. It may not have been the primary reason. But it most certainly was a factor. Go ask somebody who left if it mattered before saying something like that. It was a factor.

[Hermod]

In reality, Detroiters are just like everybody else. We are reasonable people who want the same basic things as everybody else. Of course, we have cranks and radicals just like everybody else does, but they do not represent the majority opinion of Detroiters, no matter what people have been led to believe.

Yeah, but in Detroit the "reasonable people" keep electing the "cranks and radicals" to clownsil and empowering them.

[Zacha341]

The protest and media coverage serves to let state troopers know they'll need to stay within boundaries as they enforce ordinances.

But the larger message and reality for those acclimated to the 'status quo' ala doing-what-you're-used-to-doing: Umm, IT'S OVER!

For years on the isle you could do what you wanted as you wanted. This whole crack down on Belle Isle will settle down as people, especially young folks realize rules of law needs to be followed.

In general driving with bad paperwork has been tolerated if one did not get stopped by the sparse spread of DPD and kept driving to within the city.

If you go to the isle you need to have active warrants, and other issues addressed.

and... as with most things that "come to a head", it'll only hurt for a bit and then we'll feel better afterward

[Bham1982]

The population decline of Detroit happened for a number of reasons, but rising crime was not one of them.

This is absolute nonsense.

Crime exploded post-1960, and peaked in the 1970's and 80's, which coincided with the greatest population losses.

Detroit never had 2 million residents; the highest official population count was around 1.8 million residents, and the population had dropped only slightly prior to the crime explosion.

Now crime obviously wasn't the ONLY reason for the flight. There was the race issue, schools, taxes, detioriating services, and the desire for newer and more spacious housing. But the idea that crime never played a role in urban population loss in the U.S. is completely absurd.