Groups plan Belle Isle rally to protest 'aggressive treatment of citizens'

[Danny]

Consider the source. Ron Scott? Has their ever been a bigger piece of shit, ever, anywhere?

The silent majority of law-abiding Detroiters are sick of lawlessness and welcome the enforcement of the law. Stealing a loaf of bread is one thing - speeding with 34 outstanding warrants is another. Tell me how that is a fucking Robin Hood story. Fucking tell me. C'mon D'nerd. Let's have that guy move next door to you.

Like I've said, I'm left of center but I grew out of this banner-waving bullshit when I grew facial hair. I can't be bothered with you aging hippie poseurs and neither can most Detroiters. We want peace and quiet in our parks and neighborhoods, not some rehashed bullshit about the war in Indochina or whatever you idiots are screaming about these days. It's 2014. We have a black president and a white mayor. Find another clique, man. This isn't Selma, Alabama.

You tell 'em, poobert.

[FbO Vorcha]

I'm currently reading 'The Tipping Point' by Malcolm Gladwell, and in it he writes of the problems in the NY subway system in the '80's. He describes the crackdown on fair-jumping:

With felonies—serious crimes—on the subway system at an all time high, Bratton decided to crack down on fare beating. Why? Because he believed that, like graffiti, fare beating could be a signal, a small expression of disorder that invited much more serious crimes. An estimated 170,000 people a day were entering the system, by one route or another, without paying a token. Some were kids, who simply jumped over the turnstiles. Others would lean backward on the turnstiles and force their way through. And once one or two or three people began cheating the system, other people—who might never otherwise have considered evading the law—would join in, reasoning that if some people weren’t going to pay, they shouldn’t either, and the problem would snowball. The problem was exacerbated by the fact fare beating was not easy to fight. Because there was only $1.25 at stake, the transit police didn’t feel it was worth their time to pursue it, particularly when there were plenty of more serious crimes happening down on the platform and in the trains.

Bratton is a colorful, charismatic man, a born leader, and he quickly made his presence felt. His wife stayed behind in Boston, so he was free to work long hours, and he would roam the city on the subway at night, getting a sense of what the problems were and how best to fight them. First, he picked stations where fare beating was the biggest problem, and put as many as ten policemen in plainclothes at the turnstiles. The team would nab fare beaters one by one, handcuff them, and leave them standing, in a daisy chain, on the platform until they had a “full catch.” The idea was to signal, as publicly as possible, that the transit police were now serious about cracking down on fare beaters. Previously, police officers had been wary of pursuing fare beaters because the arrest, the trip to the station house, the filling out of necessary forms, and the waiting for those forms to be processed took an entire day—all for a crime that usually merited no more than a slap on the wrist. Bratton retrofitted a city bus and turned it into a rolling station house, with its own fax machines, phones, holding pen, and fingerprinting facilities. Soon the turnaround time on an arrest was down to an hour. Bratton also insisted that a check be run on all those arrested. Sure enough, one out of seven arrestees had an outstanding warrant for a previous crime, and one out of twenty was carrying a weapon of some sort. Suddenly it wasn’t hard to convince police officers that tackling fare beating made sense. “For the cops it was a bonanza,” Bratton writes. “Every arrest was like opening a box of Cracker Jack. What kind of toy am I going to get? Got a gun? Got a knife? Got a warrant? Do we have a murderer here?...After a while the bad guys wised up and began to leave their weapons home and pay their fares.” Under Bratton, the number of ejections from subway stations—for drunkenness, or improper behavior—tripled within his first few months in office. Arrests for misdemeanors, for the kind of minor offenses that had gone unnoticed in the past, went up fivefold between 1990 and 1994. Bratton turned the transit police into an organization focused on the smallest infractions, on the details of life underground.After the election of Rudolph Giuliani as mayor of New York in 1994, Bratton was appointed head of the New York City Police Department, and he applied the same strategies to the city at large. He instructed his officers to crack down on quality of life crimes: on the “squeegee men” who came up to drivers at New York City intersections and demanded money for washing car windows, for example, and on all the other above ground equivalents of turnstile jumping and graffiti. “Previous police administration had been handcuffed by restrictions,” Bratton says. “We took the handcuffs off. We stepped up enforcement of the laws against public drunkenness and public urination and arrested repeat violators, including those who threw empty bottles on the street or were involved in even relatively minor damage to property....If you peed in the street, you were going to jail.” When crime began to fall in the city—as quickly and dramatically as it had in the subways—Bratton and Giuliani pointed to the same cause. Minor, seemingly insignificant quality of life crimes, they said, were Tipping Points for violent crime.

-Malcolm Gladwell, "The Tipping Point"

The theory behind this was the 'Broken Window' theory that seemingly minor environmental clues result in major behavior changes.

I wonder if the same theory is being applied here.

[Cliffy]

I mean, I guess it is really weird when they are enforcing laws in Detroit, but isn't this what Brenda Jones et all have been asking for? Increased public safety? I just absolutely do not understand why some people think Belle Isle should be their personal unrestricted playground.

No, she is trying to get reelected so she is playing the race card. White state police officers are pulling over black Detroiters at the park they stole from us and are sending a message we don't want blacks on the island. Yet, a lot of the people pulled over and arrested have multiple warrants. It seems that Detroit is a lost cause. No matter what you do, you're the problem. All Brenda Jones wants is wads of money. Unfortunately, the people with the wads of money wants to make sure its spent properly.

[rjlj]

It is actually more simple than that. Basically, police are doing their jobs and if you break the law, you will be dealt with. Plain and simple. This is pretty much how it works across the United States.

I'm currently reading 'The Tipping Point' by Malcolm Gladwell, and in it he writes of the problems in the NY subway system in the '80's. He describes the crackdown on fair-jumping:

-Malcolm Gladwell, "The Tipping Point"

The theory behind this was the 'Broken Window' theory that seemingly minor environmental clues result in major behavior changes.

I wonder if the same theory is being applied here.

[KOMPOST]

It was brought to my attention in another thread on this very topic that the police should do what they may to "keep the riffraff out".
When asked to describe the behavior of "riffraff", the poster responded with 3 things to look out for:
1) Pollution/littering
2) Loud, obnoxious behavior
3) Speeding

I think it is clear what needs to be done:
the State Police and DNR must do everything in their power to keep the Grand Prix and Boat Race OFF the island.
Let the people who enjoy the island [[and have for decades) continue to enjoy it without the nuisance of these obnoxious events.
Peace.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

Quoted fm Erikd

What heavy-handed enforcement tactics?
The park officers are mostly pulling people over and reminding them that they should not be driving so fast, or informing them about other park rules that they may not be aware of.
a DNR officer stopped them about feeding the geese, which is a valid concern, but not something that I realized was an issue until it was explained.
Are these examples of heavy handed law enforcement techniques? If the officers are mostly pulling people over and simply explaining the laws, then letting people off with a warning, I certainly don't think so...

I agree with you but you have to remember this is Detroit where hyper sensitivity abounds and laws are merely recommendations to pick and choose from and then cry foul should someone try to hold you accountable...In a year from now Belle Isle will be a much better place and experience for all and people who frequent it will adjust to its new and improved status. It will surly be better off than it was 3-5 years ago if you need a yard stick to compare condition and experience.

[FbO Vorcha]

It is actually more simple than that. Basically, police are doing their jobs and if you break the law, you will be dealt with. Plain and simple. This is pretty much how it works across the United States.

No, it seems to fit the basic idea. You enforce what many would consider minor infractions - in this case say speeding - in NY's case Fare-jumping - that results in a number of arrests for outstanding warrants, drug possession, weapons charges, etc. Criminals get the point that it's not safe for them to be there anymore, and law abiding public learns that it's now safe to be on Belle Isle [[or take the subway - your choice).

In NY people were saying that dealing with fare-jumping was a waste given the bigger concerns, but that was enough to tip the scale.

The goal of both of these things is to "get the Riff-Raff out".

[Cliffy]

It was brought to my attention in another thread on this very topic that the police should do what they may to "keep the riffraff out".
When asked to describe the behavior of "riffraff", the poster responded with 3 things to look out for:
1) Pollution/littering
2) Loud, obnoxious behavior
3) Speeding

I think it is clear what needs to be done:
the State Police and DNR must do everything in their power to keep the Grand Prix and Boat Race OFF the island.
Let the people who enjoy the island [[and have for decades) continue to enjoy it without the nuisance of these obnoxious events.
Peace.

What about someone going 35 mph or someone throwing garbage out their window. Just allow everything else

[Detroitnerd]

The silent majority of law-abiding Detroiters are sick of lawlessness and welcome the enforcement of the law. Stealing a loaf of bread is one thing - speeding with 34 outstanding warrants is another. Tell me how that is a fucking Robin Hood story. Fucking tell me. C'mon D'nerd. Let's have that guy move next door to you.

I think you may be having a hard time understanding this as a class issue -- and, to a lesser extent, as a race issue.

To be poor is almost by definition to not have the same resources and choices as other people.

But when you have money, you are a lot less likely to get warrants for your arrest. Bear in mind, you can have a warrant for something as piddly as not paying a ticket. When you have money, you pay your tickets. And when you have money in the first place, you don't get those tickets for broken turn signals, busted headlights and missing mirrors that people living paycheck-to-paycheck do. So there you go: Live poor for a year and you can rack up a few warrants because, first you couldn't pay to fix the problem, now you can't pay the ticket you got for not fixing the problem.

And people are messed up all over, not just in the city. It's just that people with money have the privilege of papering over a lot of the social problems that we all have, whether it's an alcoholic family member, a relative with a gambling problem, or a neighborhood kid who's up to no good. Having money means you can lock horns with the system a lot more effectively.

People with money commit crimes, but they are harder to arrest and jail. Having money means you can do illegal drugs in your secure, gated homes, someplace police would think twice about bursting through the door. Heck, having money means you can pull off grander, white-collar crimes, and walk away from a shell of a corporation scot-free.

And, frankly, Detroit police have a justice system that is strained to the breaking point because it's so full of poor people who do whatever it takes to get by. These prisons aren't full of hardened, grizzled criminals so much as not-very-bright people who don't have the means to fight their cases. And police know this, and so, for years, I don't think they've been really proactive about running every guy with a warrant downtown. Right or wrong, it's a decision based on realities that are much more troubling.

And that's just class. There's a whole other layer of race. There are long-demonstrated biases that result from institutional racism.

So, when I heard these calls to "enforce the law fairly and equally," I am reminded of that quote from Anatole France: "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids both the rich and poor to steal bread and sleep under bridges."

In other words, the laws are against things poor people might have to do to get by, and things that the rich would never have to dream of. Right? It's funny! Mike Duggan is never going to get a warrant for not paying a traffic ticket. But a lot of poor people will.

And that's fucked up, people. Striking a pose of equality while knowing that the poor people you don't like are gonna get ground down nice and hard by this is a shitty attitude, and it's indicative of the deep class and race divisions in our region. Oh, not that anybody who feels that way will ever admit to it. There's a very Frank Rizzo-like thing about it in that way: Some people rubbing their hands over socking it to society's losers while talking about fairness and equality...

Anyway, feel free to dismiss me or write me off. I know you will. But hear me out: If I never say another word about it, you haven't heard the last about this "fair and equal" treatment of Detroit residents on Belle Isle.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

These protests double as a convention of the Foolish Idiots Society, Detroit Chapter. Full and proper law enforcement on Belle Isle is a wonderful thing, without exception. Speeders in a park are dangerous. Keeping it safe, clean and maintained are the main reasons we will benefit from the state takeover. Positive changes are already happening.

[EastsideAl]

Anyway, feel free to dismiss me or write me off. I know you will. But hear me out: If I never say another word about it, you haven't heard the last about this "fair and equal" treatment of Detroit residents on Belle Isle.

Exactly. There are feelings and fears involved here, and a history, that are very real to many citizens in this city.

Whatever posters here say, or our Governor thinks, this issue will come up again. Particularly if the State Police continue in their present methods. I hope it only comes up in the form of this sort of ludicrous 'protest' event, but there sure as hell are no guarantees where this sort of deep misunderstanding is already evident.

[EastsideAl]

I'm currently reading 'The Tipping Point' by Malcolm Gladwell, and in it he writes of the problems in the NY subway system in the '80's. He describes the crackdown on fair-jumping:

-Malcolm Gladwell, "The Tipping Point"

The theory behind this was the 'Broken Window' theory that seemingly minor environmental clues result in major behavior changes.

I wonder if the same theory is being applied here.

What both you and Gladwell leave out of this narrative are the huge resentments that eventually arose from this enforcement strategy. Bratton himself was actually quite sensitive to these concerns, and made community relations and changes in hiring practices part of his strategy.

But later police commissioners were less sensitive, and as the number of people kept in jail on petty charges grew [[disproportionately black, even amongst those who were stopped by police), and the number of confrontations between police and citizens grew, the tensions rose. By the time of the Amadou Diallo shooting [[shot 19 times by police, out of 41 bullets fired, for 'scaring' officers by taking out his wallet to get his apartment door key) the city was truly on edge. Cooler heads prevailed, but I lived in NYC at the time and it was very close to being very ugly.

Although economic and demographic changes have swept and calmed the city since then [[the opposite of what has happened in Detroit), tensions between minority communities and the police and the city administration over often petty harassment and a "shoot first and ask questions later" approach have never really gone away. The recent political debate surrounding the so-called "stop and frisk" policy, and the absolute lack of sensitivity shown by the city administration over the concerns of black and Hispanic citizens, was part of the reason for Mayor Bloomberg's deeply declining popularity and Bill DeBlasio's recent resounding win. And DeBlasio has very pointedly brought back William Bratton as police commissioner.

[KOMPOST]

What I think is being overlooked by some here is the fact that many people felt comfortable enjoying a day on the island for many years. Were all of those people thrilled about someone throwing trash on the ground, someone kicking deep bass from their ride or loudly swearing/arguing?
Of course not.
But some people are comfortable being around that. Not to mention, it's a big island, you can move it along to another peaceful spot.
Some people are comfortable being around an abundance of police officers. Being followed [[if they even are targeted) merely confirms for them: see, they're doing their job. Better yet, seeing other island-goers pulled over, trunk open, being ticketed.
Given the choice of the two, give me the former any day.
Any leisure day.

[Cliffy]

What I think is being overlooked by some here is the fact that many people felt comfortable enjoying a day on the island for many years. Were all of those people thrilled about someone throwing trash on the ground, someone kicking deep bass from their ride or loudly swearing/arguing?
Of course not.
But some people are comfortable being around that. Not to mention, it's a big island, you can move it along to another peaceful spot.
Some people are comfortable being around an abundance of police officers. Being followed [[if they even are targeted) merely confirms for them: see, they're doing their job. Better yet, seeing other island-goers pulled over, trunk open, being ticketed.
Given the choice of the two, give me the former any day.
Any leisure day.

Well at this point you better not speed or throw trash on the island, because the State has the park for a long time and probably will never give it back.

[gvidas]

It's one thing for our elected officials to say: we need to change how we punish people, because we send too many people to jail for too long, and the experience doesn't make them more law-abiding.

Or to say: the justice system we have is broken, as evidenced by the unreasonable percentage of black men who are in jail for minor drug offenses.

Or, even: the transition on Belle Isle from little-to-no policing to an active state police presence shows the degree to which our justice system is broken, because it highlights the frequency of enforcement that poor people and black people experience.

But to say: enforcing the laws that we have on Belle Isle is unjust, and a disgrace, so it should stop? That is, at best, a very roundabout way of making the point.

[Hermod]

There are certain lessons that we were supposed to learn in kindergarten that should be followed all the years of your life.

1. Stay in line and no "cuts".
2. Speak softly so that you do not disturb others.
3. Keep your hands off of other peoples stuff.
4. Cross the street carefully at marked crosswalks looking out for traffic.
5. Color within the lines.
6. Watch out for your classmates if they have trouble.

Seems like a pretty good list of rules.
Of course they are too patriarchal and Eurocentric for superior intellects like DetroitNerd who always has fifty snappy alibis as to why Detroiters shouldn't follow them.
5.

[GUSHI]

if the poor person, black person, white person, asian person, hispanic person etc etc etc. has broken the law they should be warned or fined, if they have warrants that mean the broke the law before and are breaking it again, then they should have their white, black, blue, green ass escorted to jail. I'm really get annoyed by the race card, do the crime do the time!

[cjd]

I think you may be having a hard time understanding this as a class issue -- and, to a lesser extent, as a race issue.

To be poor is almost by definition to not have the same resources and choices as other people.

But when you have money, you are a lot less likely to get warrants for your arrest. Bear in mind, you can have a warrant for something as piddly as not paying a ticket. When you have money, you pay your tickets. And when you have money in the first place, you don't get those tickets for broken turn signals, busted headlights and missing mirrors that people living paycheck-to-paycheck do. So there you go: Live poor for a year and you can rack up a few warrants because, first you couldn't pay to fix the problem, now you can't pay the ticket you got for not fixing the problem.

I'll admit it. If this is what I am supposed to understand, I am having a hard time.

If I was poor and I knew that the police were hard chargers in my neighborhood, giving tickets for broken tail lamps and I had a broken tail lamp I would ride my bike to work. That way I wouldn't get the ticket I couldn't pay for. And if I did get the ticket, I would bike or- if need be- walk to work until I could pay for it so I didn't get a warrant. Wait, that happened to me when I was 17.... and I rode my bike for a week or so until my paycheck came, rode [[the bike) to the bank, and then sent in the check to pay the ticket. No fun for me that week and less of the necessities. Then I took what little bit was left of the check and parked my bike at Perry Drugs an bought a new bulb and put it in the tail lamp when I got home. Problem solved. No warrant.

This stuff isn't that hard to figure out. Sometimes it seems harder to implement in these days of cell phone bills, $4/gal gas, and the like but the concept is not that hard. "Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time." [[or at least don't do the civil infraction if you can't pay the ticket). And CERTAINLY don't go to Belle Isle if you have 34 outstanding tickets and don't want to go to jail.

[Honky Tonk]

There are certain lessons that we were supposed to learn in kindergarten that should be followed all the years of your life.

1. Stay in line and no "cuts".
2. Speak softly so that you do not disturb others.
3. Keep your hands off of other peoples stuff.
4. Cross the street carefully at marked crosswalks looking out for traffic.
5. Color within the lines.
6. Watch out for your classmates if they have trouble.

Seems like a pretty good list of rules.
Of course they are too patriarchal and Eurocentric for superior intellects like DetroitNerd who always has fifty snappy alibis as to why Detroiters shouldn't follow them.
5.

I think you should send a copy of #4 to the kid who stepped out in front of Mr. Utash's truck.

[corktownyuppie]

Ron Scott, spokesman for the Detroit Coalition Against Police Brutality and Peace Zones for Life, said supporters plan to present demands to the state Department of Natural Resources and hope to reform the Friends of Belle Isle, aiming for greater citizen involvement in efforts.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz31N7K6KUH

===

This is actually exciting news. I'm quite interested to see his list of demands. I have no idea what they might be, but I do know that there are plenty of people, white and black, who have no problem with the enforcement on the island.

So let's see what the demands are...because as it stands right now, it's premature to say that he has the "support of the people".

And, frankly, for my own purposes, I'd like to see what they are myself. Who knows....they may not be half bad. I guess we'll find out when they get published.

Ron Scott, spokesman for the Detroit Coalition Against Police Brutality and Peace Zones for Life, said supporters plan to present demands to the state Department of Natural Resources and hope to reform the Friends of Belle Isle, aiming for greater citizen involvement in efforts.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz31N7K6KUH

===

This is actually exciting news. I'm quite interested to see his list of demands. I have no idea what they might be, but I do know that there are plenty of people, white and black, who have no problem with the enforcement on the island.

So let's see what the demands are...because as it stands right now, it's premature to say that he has the "support of the people".

And, frankly, for my own purposes, I'd like to see what they are myself. Who knows....they may not be half bad. I guess we'll find out when they get published.

[Honky Tonk]

[QUOTE=corktownyuppie;434881][/FONT][/COLOR]This is actually exciting news. I'm quite interested to see his list of demands. So let's see what the demands are.../QUOTE]

Maybe he'll demand A SHRUBERRY! [[but nothing too ostentatious)

[sumas]

An example of heavy handedness is a neighbor walked down the street good flattened to the ground from behind. They were cuffing him but grudgingly let him show id. Mistaken identity, no hand up , no sorry dude. Probably they were sorry they couldn't cuff him up on some other warrant.

Frivolous warrant. Heck I had a warrant out for my arrest. My son used a car registered to me and racked up many many parking tickets at grosse pointe south high school. As I worked, he would throw the mail out. When a police officer came to arrest me at home [[I was at work) it rattled my youngest so he told me immediately, made a court appearance and paid the fines. One might think the judge would have deducted the fines because I was blameless but no, it about the money. Most warrants are about un paid fines.

[corktownyuppie]

An example of heavy handedness is a neighbor walked down the street good flattened to the ground from behind. They were cuffing him but grudgingly let him show id. Mistaken identity, no hand up , no sorry dude. Probably they were sorry they couldn't cuff him up on some other warrant.

Frivolous warrant. Heck I had a warrant out for my arrest. My son used a car registered to me and racked up many many parking tickets at grosse pointe south high school. As I worked, he would throw the mail out. When a police officer came to arrest me at home [[I was at work) it rattled my youngest so he told me immediately, made a court appearance and paid the fines. One might think the judge would have deducted the fines because I was blameless but no, it about the money. Most warrants are about un paid fines.

This is now a totally different conversation altogether. I don't support this type of police work.

But can people see how this scenario is a far cry from, "I was actually speeding, and I don't like that police are hassling me about it?"

Let's just replay the last week or so. Imagine that instead of complaining that people are getting pulled over for speeding infractions, she shared with us your story. I think the reaction would have been totally different.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I've lived paycheck to paycheck. And I've found it very easy to live my whole live with any outstanding warrants. If I had any, I wouldn't find it unfair to have my ass hauled in at any time.

And like poobert, I say this from a definite left of center perspective.

I guess I paid attention in kindergarten.

[Honky Tonk]

An example of heavy handedness is a neighbor walked down the street good flattened to the ground from behind. They were cuffing him but grudgingly let him show id. Mistaken identity, no hand up , no sorry dude. Probably they were sorry they couldn't cuff him up on some other warrant.

Frivolous warrant. Heck I had a warrant out for my arrest. My son used a car registered to me and racked up many many parking tickets at grosse pointe south high school. As I worked, he would throw the mail out. When a police officer came to arrest me at home [[I was at work) it rattled my youngest so he told me immediately, made a court appearance and paid the fines. One might think the judge would have deducted the fines because I was blameless but no, it about the money. Most warrants are about un paid fines.

There's the whole scenario in a nutshell. Outstanding tickets raised a flag, warrants were issued, Police were dispatched to make an arrest, court appearance was mandatory, fines paid. Regardless whether or not "it's about the money", your kid was breaking the law and there were repercussions. None of that happens in Detroit, no repercussions. Taxes go uncollected, fines go uncollected, theft goes unresolved, rape kits go untested, kids that can't read graduate, but only if they don't drop out. Done eating? Throw it out the window. Need a plate tag? The guy down the block is asleep. It's a way of life, and it has also given a sense of entitlement. Now that a REAL Police force is attempting to restore some sense of order, the racist and "po' but proud" flags are all over the field. One guy had 43 outstanding warrants, really, 43? He's got one hell of a long learning curve. I can see one, maybe two, but 43? He's habitual, with no respect for the law, period. He's accumulated those because for him, there are no repercussions. "What me worry". Sumas, I hope either you or Ron paddled your kid's ass red for that escapade. "One might think the judge would have deducted the fines because I was blameless" welcome to the real world of parenting.