The worst aspect of contemporary Detroit?

**AuburnSpeedster** · April-13-14, 03:13 AM

I'd say the crime. Especially because that's what's holding everything else from getting better. That's what gives Detroit a negative image and scares people away from coming to the city. It scares the residents and encourages kids to grow up continuing that cycle. If one thing needs to change, its that.

**Honky Tonk** · April-13-14, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by sumas

It is close to 11 PM. Kids are still running up and down the street. Honestly these are great kids. Rapes are on a upswing here. I cringe to think one is harmed.

You casually threw that in, like you always do, like it's an outbreak of measles. That, coupled with the home invasions, drug dealings, I'm thinking of moving into your neighborhood. That is the problem. The kids have no boundaries, discipline, or guidance in their lives. Later in life, when they'll be called to task, they won't have the necessary skillset or discipline to compete in the real world. The cycle just keeps repeating itself. And of course, it'll be the rest of the world's fault for not adapting to the kids lifestyle.

**Dan Wesson** · April-13-14, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by sumas

It is close to 11 PM. Kids are still running up and down the street. Honestly these are great kids. Rapes are on a upswing here. I cringe to think one is harmed.

HA ha ha....

This taken literally is a gas.

**animatedmartian** · April-13-14, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

The sprawl [[and the driving) is not unique to Detroit. In Detroit, the sprawl is due to people wanting to put as much distance between the Detroit disfunction and their family as they can [[accepting an unpleasant commute as a part of the package).

Does it have to be unique to Detroit for me to have a problem with it? There's many cities with sprawl, but there's also many cities with good transit so that even for people living many miles outside of downtown, they can still hop on a train ride to get to where they need to go. And whaddaya know, those cities too often have crime and decay which aren't things unique to Detroit.

**Hermod** · April-13-14, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

Does it have to be unique to Detroit for me to have a problem with it? There's many cities with sprawl, but there's also many cities with good transit so that even for people living many miles outside of downtown, they can still hop on a train ride to get to where they need to go. And whaddaya know, those cities too often have crime and decay which aren't things unique to Detroit.

Washington DC has a metro system and commuter rail. It has some of the worst sprawl and the most frustrating commuter traffic. If you can't afford a house in the closer suburbs, you have to live out in Dale City or Manassas and have a truly miserable nightmare of a drive everyday.

Southeast Florida [[Miami-Ft Lauderdale-West Palm Beach) has some commuter rail, but a nightmare commute.

**Chicago48** · April-13-14, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

The most irritating thing for me is the sprawl. I get it's the Motor City and all, but I don't like to spend more than 30 minutes in a car going from point A to point B every day. Then the bus systems around here are so lousy that there's really no other options for getting around. I don't see how millions of people just endure it for years at a time.

When I visit D, which is about once-twice a year, I'm amazed at the crumbling infrastructure. It's going to take billions of dollars to fix the roads, sidewalks and alleys.
Next I'm amazed at the design of the streets. There are so many dead ends and cutoffs, and the design of the city doesn't have a pattern. You can go around in circles for hours if you don't have a gps.
I don't see how my family is still living in Detroit, it's loyalty I guess or lack of money to move. Those friends that could picked up and moved to the burbs. They get better service, better police protection.

**renf** · April-13-14, 07:55 AM

If you could wave a magic wand, two key things would assist the city of Detroit at present.
*About 45,000 new jobs paying an average of $15 per hour or more
*High school graduate rates and achievement test scores that are above
the very modest state average.

**Bigb23** · April-13-14, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by sumas

Parenting, our area children are so charming, had several over for activities today. They are just so needy for approval/attention from adults. It can break your heart to see these great kids sucked into their parents cycle of bad habits.

Right now it is way after dark and kids are running up and down the street. They are having kid fun but zero supervision. Seriously sad. Parents don't give a shit.

My old next door neighbor let his 3 year old run his big wheel in the street with traffic. When I told him that's what sidewalks are for, he told me that ANYBODY that hit his kid would be dragged out of the car and have his neck broken by the dad.
That kid started his own gang, and was breaking into homes at nine years old.
Good parenting !

**Hermod** · April-13-14, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Chicago48

When I visit D, which is about once-twice a year, I'm amazed at the crumbling infrastructure. It's going to take billions of dollars to fix the roads, sidewalks and alleys.
Next I'm amazed at the design of the streets. There are so many dead ends and cutoffs, and the design of the city doesn't have a pattern. You can go around in circles for hours if you don't have a gps.
I don't see how my family is still living in Detroit, it's loyalty I guess or lack of money to move. Those friends that could picked up and moved to the burbs. They get better service, better police protection.

Detroit does have a "pattern" which you need to look at a streetmap to recognize. There are three square grid systems in Detroit which unfortunately mix with each other. One is the ribbon farm grid oriented on the Detroit River, the second is the ribbon farm grid oriented on Lake St Clair, and the third is the township and section grid from the Northwest Survey.

You can see this on the east side where Whittier aligns with the Detroit River grid from Jefferson to Harper. North of Harper, Houston-Whittier conforms to the Lake St Clair grid to Kelly where it goes west on the township/section grid to Gratiot. Houston-Whittier continues as Westphalia on the Lake St Clair grid to McNicholls where it turns north on the township section grid to 8 Mile.

A bit confusing? Yes. It is a definite pattern though.

**Honky Tonk** · April-13-14, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Detroit does have a "pattern" which you need to look at a streetmap to recognize. There are three square grid systems in Detroit which unfortunately mix with each other. One is the ribbon farm grid oriented on the Detroit River, the second is the ribbon farm grid oriented on Lake St Clair, and the third is the township and section grid from the Northwest Survey.

You can see this on the east side where Whittier aligns with the Detroit River grid from Jefferson to Harper. North of Harper, Houston-Whittier conforms to the Lake St Clair grid to Kelly where it goes west on the township/section grid to Gratiot. Houston-Whittier continues as Westphalia on the Lake St Clair grid to McNicholls where it turns north on the township section grid to 8 Mile.

A bit confusing? Yes. It is a definite pattern though.

You forgot the "wagon wheel" part.

**Honky Tonk** · April-13-14, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Bigb23

My old next door neighbor let his 3 year old run his big wheel in the street with traffic. When I told him that's what sidewalks are for, he told me that ANYBODY that hit his kid would be dragged out of the car and have his neck broken by the dad.
That kid started his own gang, and was breaking into homes at nine years old.
Good parenting !

How is your old neighborhood? Is it "repopulating"? Probably due to those evil 'burbanites.....

**animatedmartian** · April-13-14, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Chicago48

When I visit D, which is about once-twice a year, I'm amazed at the crumbling infrastructure. It's going to take billions of dollars to fix the roads, sidewalks and alleys.
Next I'm amazed at the design of the streets. There are so many dead ends and cutoffs, and the design of the city doesn't have a pattern. You can go around in circles for hours if you don't have a gps.
I don't see how my family is still living in Detroit, it's loyalty I guess or lack of money to move. Those friends that could picked up and moved to the burbs. They get better service, better police protection.

I agree with the crumbling part, but I've never gotten lost in the city. I don't know about you, but it's pretty easy to navigate. If you have a poor sense of direction, then yea I can see how it might be easy to get confused but for the most part, everything is either a grid or perpendicular to the waterfront.

**maverick1** · April-13-14, 10:26 AM

It would be the constant reminders of what the city or metro area could be [[world class) and what it is currently [[poverty, provincialism, blight). The reminders suck because I've seen cities with less than half the resources Detroit has make drastic changes fast. We have signs that we need to change as a region but we will go to war for ass backwards ways of doing things. You know there is a problem in the the thinking here when LBP actually put OC in the same conversation with Chicago and NYC.

**nain rouge** · April-13-14, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by animated martian

I agree with the crumbling part, but I've never gotten lost in the city. I don't know about you, but it's pretty easy to navigate. If you have a poor sense of direction, then yea I can see how it might be easy to get confused but for the most part, everything is either a grid or perpendicular to the waterfront.

Inside the Boulevard, the grid is an absolute wreck. Sorry, but it is. Between the freeways, Wayne State, the stadiums, and the casinos, finding a continuous street can be shockingly difficult if you haven't mapped out a route beforehand. Roads mysteriously end for blocks at a time, cut off by a "super developments", or merge into freeway service drives.

Try driving from Midtown to Mexicantown one day on surface streets. Unless you know beforehand to take Mack or Warren to Trumbull or Rosa Parks, or to merge into Grand Boulevard from Mack [[though they start calling it MLK by that, which hopefully doesn't confuse you), you'll end up crying in frustration. Even then, it's not so simple. Bagley is blocked off TWICE, and Vernor just randomly pops out of the train station after not existing for the entire Midtown stretch. Hell, most visitors to the traditional Mexicantown on Bagley never notice the vibrant commercial stretch on Vernor because Bagley is cut off at I-75, and that you have to go north and take a road that didn't exist a couple blocks ago to get there. It's awful.

I feel like Detroit is so starved for development that whenever a developer comes along the city hands the person a map of the street grid and says, "Here, do whatever you want with this junk."

**nain rouge** · April-13-14, 11:19 AM

Also, let's not forget the lovely Mack/Trumbull/Grand River intersection. It's like they're trying to taunt pedestrians. "Oh, they thought they were going try and walk down Mack? Wait until they get a load of this!"

**animatedmartian** · April-13-14, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

Inside the Boulevard, the grid is an absolute wreck. Sorry, but it is. Between the freeways, Wayne State, the stadiums, and the casinos, finding a continuous street can be shockingly difficult if you haven't mapped out a route beforehand. Roads mysteriously end for blocks at a time, cut off by a "super developments", or merge into freeway service drives.

Try driving from Midtown to Mexicantown one day on surface streets. Unless you know beforehand to take Mack or Warren to Trumbull or Rosa Parks, or to merge into Grand Boulevard from Mack [[though they start calling it MLK by that, which hopefully doesn't confuse you), you'll end up crying in frustration. Even then, it's not so simple. Bagley is blocked off TWICE, and Vernor just randomly pops out of the train station after not existing for the entire Midtown stretch. Hell, most visitors to the traditional Mexicantown on Bagley never notice the vibrant commercial stretch on Vernor because Bagley is cut off at I-75, and that you have to go north and take a road that didn't exist a couple blocks ago to get there. It's awful.

I feel like Detroit is so starved for development that whenever a developer comes along the city hands the person a map of the street grid and says, "Here, do whatever you want with this junk."

With my logic, I would just take Woodward to Fort Street and then come up Clark or Grand. Or Warren to Grand and then go south from there.

I don't understand why you'd need to go on Trumbull or Rosa Parks at all. Both those streets only take you into Corktown. Which I'd probably take either of them to Fort Street in that case.

In my mind, the only roads that are really major are the radial roads. Everything is pretty much just a side street. No matter what, I'm coming into Mexicantown either from Michigan Avenue or Fort Street [[or the freeway if I'm coming from far away obviously).

**nain rouge** · April-13-14, 12:41 PM

Well, Trumbull and Rosa Parks take you right up the border of the traditional Mexicantown. Michigan Avenue is an annoying route because it's taking you farther north of Mexicantown and newcomers hate that weird brick and crumbling road combination. And Fort Street is very unintuitive. You're telling me that if I want to go to from Midtown to Mexicantown, I have to drive almost to the Detroit River? It's not going to make any sense to an outsider.

**casscorridor** · April-13-14, 01:27 PM

I don't see how the street grid matters much, outside what was ruined by freeways and super blocks. Brooklyn is much more confusing of a grid, but far more vibrant. But of course, subway take precedent over surface streets for crosstown/ inter-borough travel. No subways in Detroit, but our freeways provide access to most parts of the city within minutes, mostly free of traffic.

**rex** · April-13-14, 01:51 PM

absence of hope.

**Gistok** · April-13-14, 02:00 PM

I have to agree with casscorridor... and as far as the Detroit streets inside the boulevard go, they are often a product of horse and buggy era. Yes granted the superblocks are there... but they are also helped by boulevards built as part of their plan. I shudder to think what Midtown would be like without either the WSU or Medical Center superblocks... I guess one can look at the Cass Park area to get an idea of what Midtown would be like without them.

And as for the confusing street layout... again that predates the automotive era. Just look at Mack Ave. It never went all the way to Woodward in the early 20th century.... there were streets such as Rowena that were removed just so that Mack would go to Woodward and merge with Myrtle [[MLK Blvd.).

There's an old DYES thread about this...
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...Avenue-went-in

So I don't blame superblocks at all for Detroit's woes...

And as for confusion? No worse than other cities...

**animatedmartian** · April-13-14, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

Well, Trumbull and Rosa Parks take you right up the border of the traditional Mexicantown. Michigan Avenue is an annoying route because it's taking you farther north of Mexicantown and newcomers hate that weird brick and crumbling road combination. And Fort Street is very unintuitive. You're telling me that if I want to go to from Midtown to Mexicantown, I have to drive almost to the Detroit River? It's not going to make any sense to an outsider.

Relatively speaking, Mexicantown isn't that far from the river. Besides, no matter which route, they all take about the same amount of time to reach the same destination [[assuming the traveler doesn't get lost). All the other factors are a moot point.