SMART Bus system’s fate in hands of voters.

[cramerro]

Thank you very much for your post

The tax was never meant to cover the entire operating budget.

Federal Law supersedes County and Local Tax proposals including the August vote. Alternative funds must be secured first not only for the handicapped but for all existing community transit including the large line buses and for the able bodied.

Write and ask Mr. Hertel, if you have any doubt about anything is my extensive website which does prove $400 Million was slashed from public bus service since 1995 to build HOV lanes and expand I-94 in midtown Detroit. MDOT got away with this because no one really cares or has the money to fight the road lobbyists.

I'm sure if my website gets well known in Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties that the taxpayers would protest the massive freeway expansion by voting NO next August. This would mean much more funding. YES means NO and NO means YES next August, if you really do want to improve public bus service. So, write to Mr. Hertel and get him to debate me on television.

John C. Hertel, General Manager,
Suburban Mobility Authority for Regional Transportation - SMART
Buhl Building
535 Griswold Street Suite 600,
Detroit, MI 48226

You are welcome for my post. I wish you would have read it. My reaction to your response: Where do you come up with this sh*t?! Now you're saying that if a transit agency is facing funding shortfalls, they can't cut service? They or the State or the Feds have to come up with the funds elsewhere? Gee, wouldn't that have been nice if the State and Feds had to find replacement funding every time they reduced transportation spending. Also, not sure if you noticed, but MDOT has spent maybe a few million replacing [[which it would have to anyway) the crumbling Van Dyke and W Grand Blvd bridges... that's it for all of your evil empire projects that have actually been paid for. If $400 Million has already been siphoned and spent to widen I-94 and build HOV lanes, I must be taking the wrong I-94! I don't know why I waste my time responding, other than I would regret not having tried if your posts went unchallenged and misled even one person in to buying into this BS.

[That Great Guy]

You are welcome for my post. I wish you would have read it. My reaction to your response: Where do you come up with this sh*t?! Now you're saying that if a transit agency is facing funding shortfalls, they can't cut service? They or the State or the Feds have to come up with the funds elsewhere? Gee, wouldn't that have been nice if the State and Feds had to find replacement funding every time they reduced transportation spending. Also, not sure if you noticed, but MDOT has spent maybe a few million replacing [[which it would have to anyway) the crumbling Van Dyke and W Grand Blvd bridges... that's it for all of your evil empire projects that have actually been paid for. If $400 Million has already been siphoned and spent to widen I-94 and build HOV lanes, I must be taking the wrong I-94! I don't know why I waste my time responding, other than I would regret not having tried if your posts went unchallenged and misled even one person in to buying into this BS.

I appreciate this post very much and have read it very carefully.

The able bodied people in Livonia kept bus service after November 2006. There were no tax cuts but instead fraud, false propaganda and much hype. The City said there was a tax cut coming but it was a bait and switch tactic which resulted in higher taxes for most residents and businesses. Wal-Mart officials bulldozed over a transit center and they got a free road expansion. I tried to save the land which should have been kept by the taxpayers.

My opponents sent out flyers of blind people in wheelchairs claiming without your YES vote, these people will be stranded. These flyers cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and were sent out all over metro Detroit. They were and are illegal and fraud, against federal laws and are immoral The Newspaper stories also were illegal. That is why you think the way you do about my WebSite. Some of my opponents don't print their real names, like I do.

My WebSite is extremely extensive. If you make it well known, no one will lose their job or bus service. Any existing service that is used for jobs or the handicapped will remain. There will be no budget shortfall. Instead SMART would have to publicly justify an increase and go after the freeway lobbyists and overweight trucks and the illegal tax shifts which are indeed costing jobs due to the loss of multiple tax mechanisms and logistics. Regional planners presently won't comply with sound economic principles.

My WebSite is all honest, backed up with facts, made with lots of compassion and is very peaceful. If it gets known, mass transit will get much more funding and the taxpayers will know to support mass transit by putting safety first and understanding the economic value of not driving everywhere and the need to help others.

Please make save the fuel tax dot org

extremely well known and you will see, it is better for all the voters to be SMART

[finster]

TGG, I admit I don't know all the ins and outs of SMART and its funding but if I didn't know any better I would swear you were somehow a paid shill for some anti-bus, anti-public transit, anti-SMART, etc. organization. I sure do hope I'm wrong and if so I appreciate your apparent commitment to your cause if nothing else.

[ABetterDetroit]

First, I support public transportation and it must be funded. Raising the sales tax or fuel tax, or even an income tax that piggy backs fixing these god awful roads are the best ways to raise the needed funds because you can build a wide spread support on 2 fronts, roads AND public transport. Everyone needs one or the other.

Do not raise property taxes. Insanely high property taxes have contributed to and will continue to strangle Detroit's recovery. How many examples of over-taxed property do we need? Foreclosure rates due to unpaid taxes at all time highs and real estate values at all time lows alone seem good enough to point out the problem. The stupid two tiered property tax in this state already shifts the burden to the renters by forcing landlords to recover more rent to pay the taxes. Higher rents just make it that much harder for working people to make it on their own forcing more folks on the dole.

Raising property taxes to pay for SMART just causes more communities to opt out of public transportation all together because any intelligent community forced to chose between dropping real estate values related to high property taxes where nobody wants to move in or reasonable rents and house payments that make a community more attractive for actual economic growth is that much more critical than public transportation. In the end it is the public transportation that suffers with a lack of funding due to the tax vehicle that was decided on to fund it which has already proven to FAIL before in this area.

[DetroitPlanner]

Do not raise property taxes. Insanely high property taxes have contributed to and will continue to strangle Detroit's recovery. How many examples of over-taxed property do we need? Foreclosure rates due to unpaid taxes at all time highs and real estate values at all time lows alone seem good enough to point out the problem. The stupid two tiered property tax in this state already shifts the burden to the renters by forcing landlords to recover more rent to pay the taxes. Higher rents just make it that much harder for working people to make it on their own forcing more folks on the dole.

No property taxes in the City go to SMART. It is an opt out community.

[ABetterDetroit]

No property taxes in the City go to SMART. It is an opt out community.

I had no idea, thanks for the correction DP. I thought opt out was a dirty low down evil thing to do after following these threads for a long time and just assumed that Detroit was all in on bus services. Would it be fair to assume than that having 2 seprate bus systems serving the Detroit metro area is inefficient way of getting the job done and only cost more money with less service?

[DetroitPlanner]

The way they run now? Yes.

The RTA will better coordinate these routes much like the RTA in Chicago coordinates the CTA, METRA, and Pace.

Even with better coordination both transit providers are among the most poorly funded of any large region. Like roads, we get what we pay for.

[nain rouge]

DetroitPlanner, give me reasons why Metro Detroit needs two bus systems even in the best of circumstances. I don't care if Chicagoland or whatever has two bus systems. Chicago is a real city, or at least the majority of it is, with many large neighborhoods of 50,000+ people with densities of over 20,000 people per square mile. Detroit now has a density level comparable to its inner ring suburbs, if that, a meager 5,000 people per square mile.

Detroit is only unique from its suburbs in the sense that its poorer and its low density levels are unplanned. Tell me why that demands 2 bus systems. It doesn't. You'd have to go back to the '50s or '60s for the current arrangement to make any sense. Woodward buses terminating at the State Fairgrounds from both sides is an absolute embarrassment given the realities on the ground, the exact image thinkers like Ayn Rand had in mind when they attacked the concept of big government. It's a sick, inefficient joke.

[DetroitPlanner]

DetroitPlanner, give me reasons why Metro Detroit needs two bus systems even in the best of circumstances. I don't care if Chicagoland or whatever has two bus systems. Chicago is a real city, or at least the majority of it is, with many large neighborhoods of 50,000+ people with densities of over 20,000 people per square mile. Detroit now has a density level comparable to its inner ring suburbs, if that, a meager 5,000 people per square mile.

Detroit is only unique from its suburbs in the sense that its poorer and its low density levels are unplanned. Tell me why that demands 2 bus systems. It doesn't. You'd have to go back to the '50s or '60s for the current arrangement to make any sense. Woodward buses terminating at the State Fairgrounds from both sides is an absolute embarrassment given the realities on the ground, the exact image thinkers like Ayn Rand had in mind when they attacked the concept of big government. It's a sick, inefficient joke.

Blah blah blah blah. I did not create the system I just work in it. Might as well ask why we need so many auto companies as far as I care. I see the RTA as a move in the right direction. Tell you what, why not ask your elected official? They can change policy, all I can do is inform the public and implement it.

[ddaydetroit]

Smart has to improve its image greatly especially after this article Sunday http://www.dailytribune.com/general-...roin-overdoses . The bus station by me they leave trash everywhere and seem to have shady people hanging around. I have traveled to many other big cities and around the world and the people that use smart and the Detroit bus system are a much different crowd then most mass transit system I have seen.

[professorscott]

Smart has to improve its image greatly especially after this article Sunday http://www.dailytribune.com/general-...roin-overdoses . The bus station by me they leave trash everywhere and seem to have shady people hanging around. I have traveled to many other big cities and around the world and the people that use smart and the Detroit bus system are a much different crowd then most mass transit system I have seen.

SMART is not a law enforcement agency, nor is SMART the owner of the right-of-way on which the bus stops and shelters are located. If any particular community is aggrieved by any situation regarding the condition of bus stops or shelters, or the people who are at those locations, it is that community's responsibility to resolve such issues. SMART's job is to run buses.

[professorscott]

DetroitPlanner, give me reasons why Metro Detroit needs two bus systems even in the best of circumstances.

Metro DC has lots of bus systems. The number of bus systems isn't an issue. The issue in metro Detroit, city and suburbs, is lack of political will to properly fund transportation. If transportation was properly funded, nobody would be arguing about the different colors on the various buses. Picking on the fairgrounds is silly; that's a transfer point because there's room for it. On the west side the transfer point is well outside the City limits: Fairlane mall.

Would it be possible to operate with just one system? Yes. Why wasn't it done that way? History. DDOT has been a municipal system for 90+ years. SEMTA, the predecessor to SMART, was formed by taking over failing privately-owned suburban bus systems, one after the other, in the 1960s mainly. Is it possible to merge the two? Technically, yes, but politically, probably not. Once the RTA grows some legs and can actually perform real functions, if it can help to improve the riders' overall experience by better managing transfer locations and route coordination, then God bless it. But for now, as I said, the problem is money, not bus color scheme.

[scooter]

aagree with you, TGG rather pay more taxes forthe people going to go on welfare and unemployment if the SMART millage fails. Whats a lousley extra 25 bucks
itsgoing to cost people more to support them on welfare etc... and besides Detroit will never become a world class city again without transit in the city and suburbs,

[nain rouge]

Metro DC has lots of bus systems.

You can't compare Detroit to DC [[now that I wrote that, you'll just compare it to Boston). For one, DC is unique in that it's, well, it's own district. Also, it's a densely populated urban city with world class tourist attractions, and it's economy is a bajillion times better than Detroit's. Nearby Arlington County gets attacked for its sprawl, but it has a density of over 8,000 people per square mile and a population of over 200,000. We have nothing like that in Metro Detroit.

As a consequence, DC can afford to coordinate multiple bus systems, and even then, it's questionable how efficient it is. Some quick searches on Google Maps reveal that it typically takes about three to four times as long to take mass transit from the suburbs into the core of DC as it does to drive, usually because of a transfer between systems.

Of course DC needs its own dedicated routes, but there has to be a better way.

Picking on the fairgrounds is silly; that's a transfer point because there's room for it. On the west side the transfer point is well outside the City limits: Fairlane mall.

The majority of the buses on Woodward should run the entire length. That's what I was picking on. But here we are again with the classic Detroit Yes! misdirection.

[ddaydetroit]

SMART is not a law enforcement agency, nor is SMART the owner of the right-of-way on which the bus stops and shelters are located. If any particular community is aggrieved by any situation regarding the condition of bus stops or shelters, or the people who are at those locations, it is that community's responsibility to resolve such issues. SMART's job is to run buses.

Well that's one hell of a sales pitch to the thousands that read the macomb daily Sunday about route 560 and Vote. Good luck getting votes you will need it I vote and if that's the best you can give me it wont get my vote

[nain rouge]

Route 560 was one of the few highlights of SMART. If that starts getting gutted, it's all over for mass transit in Macomb. With talk like that, I'm glad I'm getting out of here!

[Danny]

The able bodied people in Livonia kept bus service after November 2006. There were no tax cuts but instead fraud, false propaganda and much hype. The City said there was a tax cut coming but it was a bait and switch tactic which resulted in higher taxes for most residents and businesses. Wal-Mart officials bulldozed over a transit center and they got a free road expansion. I tried to save the land which should have been kept by the taxpayers.

I agree with that statement! I was some racist Livonia homesteader that propose Livonia City Hall to trick its residents. 'We don't have 3 million dollars for Wayne County Transit Authority go they can give those dollars to SMART. So opting SMART buses out of their main roads will save us some money.' Those white folks in Livonia were duped! A racial plot to keep more black folks out of Livonia is working for the moment. Give it about 30 years, there will be more black folks moving in Livonia. That's when I tell that story to my kids.

They can't keep D-DOT buses out of Livonia.

[That Great Guy]

I agree with that statement! I was some racist Livonia homesteader that propose Livonia City Hall to trick its residents. 'We don't have 3 million dollars for Wayne County Transit Authority go they can give those dollars to SMART. So opting SMART buses out of their main roads will save us some money.' Those white folks in Livonia were duped! A racial plot to keep more black folks out of Livonia is working for the moment. Give it about 30 years, there will be more black folks moving in Livonia. That's when I tell that story to my kids.

They can't keep D-DOT buses out of Livonia.

In 2005, Livonia Mayor Jack Kirksey accused top SMART officials of tax shifting State and Local funds from Livonia to Dearborn. This is illegal without a vote of the majority. Thus, if the August tax fails in Wayne County, all communities including Livonia that paid SMART would be forced by order of a federal judge to pay SMART 0.59 Mil and MDOT would be ordered by force to pay the 1995 amount of CTF money to both DDOT and SMART. This is fully explained in my extremely accurate WebSite in language that a fourth grade English speaking student can comprehend and understand.

The fact that Mr. Jack Kirksey and all city counsel members did not protest the SMART Millage, the documented CTF cuts, gross incompetence and engaged in a profit making scheme for themselves is solid proof and evidence that they do not care about Detroit or Livonia and only about themselves.

A City Counsel Member stated Redford is an important barrier to keep Detroit residents out of Livonia with SMART gone. The fact this person was not fired by the other members is further proof that should not be ignored by the public of discrimination against blacks and outright greed for the sole purpose of self gain.

There are many facts that indeed show the I-75 HOV lanes are being built with money once used for the City of Detroit public buses. SMART, the Cities of Livonia and Detroit, MDOT and YES even the Transportation Riders United, TRU all fully support the tax shifting to build this.

Danny, if you get my WebSite well known mass transit funding will be greatly increased by both defeating Multi Billion dollar freeway expansion projects that don't protect existing community transit needs AND going after corrupt Local officials such as those in Livonia who deceive and trick even their own residents and race.

Thank You for your post and for voting

[ghettopalmetto]

You can't compare Detroit to DC [[now that I wrote that, you'll just compare it to Boston). For one, DC is unique in that it's, well, it's own district. Also, it's a densely populated urban city with world class tourist attractions, and it's economy is a bajillion times better than Detroit's. Nearby Arlington County gets attacked for its sprawl, but it has a density of over 8,000 people per square mile and a population of over 200,000. We have nothing like that in Metro Detroit.

As a consequence, DC can afford to coordinate multiple bus systems, and even then, it's questionable how efficient it is.

You can't compare Detroit to *any* large city. No other large city in the United States has a transit system that is so dysfunctional and so poorly equipped to provide the type of service it tries to provide.

Michigan can find $2 billion for an unneeded widening of I-94. It can find $1 billion for an unneeded widening of I-75. But it can't find money to run buses?

The problem is, as professorscott aptly stated, is one of funding. I've never seen a transit system in a large metropolitan area funded through property taxes. You can't expect to have reliable service [[let alone long-term planning) if you're forced to go back to persnickety voters every few years just to survive. Never mind that such a funding mechanism doesn't allow the region to qualify for federal New Starts funding [[Hence, the creation of the toothless RTA) .

Until the Legislature either amends the state constitution to allow more than 10% of state transportation funds to be applied to non-road uses, or allows localities to levy their own transit taxes [[beyond property tax with local opt-out), then SMART will be dysfunctional. It's almost as if the entire system was designed to fail....

[canuck]

You can't compare Detroit to *any* large city.

Until the Legislature either amends the state constitution to allow more than 10% of state transportation funds to be applied to non-road uses, or allows localities to levy their own transit taxes [[beyond property tax with local opt-out), then SMART will be dysfunctional. It's almost as if the entire system was designed to fail....

So, is it possible to imagine a transit scheme that is designed to fail through attrition and/or lack of planning?

Is there a long-lived plot to not provide mass transit services to the people?

I know this has been debated many times, but there is a sense that this may be the case. The usual argument that a lack of foresight and bad planning was responsible for this mess doesnt cover all the bases, I think.

[professorscott]

Is there a long-lived plot to not provide mass transit services to the people?

As much fun as it is to imagine a bunch of James Bond villian types sitting in a smoke-filled room conspiring to deprive the people of transportation options, the truth is much more boring. Remember, a conspiracy requires a certain amount of foresight and intelligence on the part of the conspirators.

Detroit embarked on a grand experiment, from perhaps the mid 1930s through at least the 1980s, to prove that you could build a successful urbanized region entirely around highways and automobiles. Look around and you'll see how that worked out.

Most of our transportation people around the region grew up in that philosophy and still believe in it, more or less. The very few people who understand we can't stop the bleeding until we fix the basics, just don't have enough collective weight to change how people think.

So basically, as a region, we are fulfilling Einstein's definition of insanity.

[canuck]

As much fun as it is to imagine a bunch of James Bond villian types sitting in a smoke-filled room conspiring to deprive the people of transportation options, the truth is much more boring. Remember, a conspiracy requires a certain amount of foresight and intelligence on the part of the conspirators.

Detroit embarked on a grand experiment, from perhaps the mid 1930s through at least the 1980s, to prove that you could build a successful urbanized region entirely around highways and automobiles. Look around and you'll see how that worked out.

Most of our transportation people around the region grew up in that philosophy and still believe in it, more or less. The very few people who understand we can't stop the bleeding until we fix the basics, just don't have enough collective weight to change how people think.

So basically, as a region, we are fulfilling Einstein's definition of insanity.

Yes well, we've discussed this before but I guess it does come down to a process of inanition through attrition, as you explain. There has to be a will to let this happen. It is not an innocent thing, right?

[professorscott]

Yes well, we've discussed this before but I guess it does come down to a process of inanition through attrition, as you explain. There has to be a will to let this happen. It is not an innocent thing, right?

I wouldn't say "will" so much as that we are just experiencing inaction. The status quo pretty much can keep chugging along on its own. We have transportation planners who were taught to build roads, who have decades of experience building roads, so they build road. It's the old "your only tool is a hammer" situation. There is pretty nearly no transit expertise at any level of government.

[Danny]

In 2005, Livonia Mayor Jack Kirksey accused top SMART officials of tax shifting State and Local funds from Livonia to Dearborn. This is illegal without a vote of the majority. Thus, if the August tax fails in Wayne County, all communities including Livonia that paid SMART would be forced by order of a federal judge to pay SMART 0.59 Mil and MDOT would be ordered by force to pay the 1995 amount of CTF money to both DDOT and SMART. This is fully explained in my extremely accurate WebSite in language that a fourth grade English speaking student can comprehend and understand.

The fact that Mr. Jack Kirksey and all city counsel members did not protest the SMART Millage, the documented CTF cuts, gross incompetence and engaged in a profit making scheme for themselves is solid proof and evidence that they do not care about Detroit or Livonia and only about themselves.

A City Counsel Member stated Redford is an important barrier to keep Detroit residents out of Livonia with SMART gone. The fact this person was not fired by the other members is further proof that should not be ignored by the public of discrimination against blacks and outright greed for the sole purpose of self gain.

There are many facts that indeed show the I-75 HOV lanes are being built with money once used for the City of Detroit public buses. SMART, the Cities of Livonia and Detroit, MDOT and YES even the Transportation Riders United, TRU all fully support the tax shifting to build this.

Danny, if you get my WebSite well known mass transit funding will be greatly increased by both defeating Multi Billion dollar freeway expansion projects that don't protect existing community transit needs AND going after corrupt Local officials such as those in Livonia who deceive and trick even their own residents and race.

Thank You for your post and for voting

That Livonia City Council member comments started that racist parade to dupe its citizens to opt out SMART buses, instead of 'Let's Keep Blacks out of out city' Let's tell them that SMART has shift its dollars to Dearborn. Thus, we don't have 3 million dollars. Also the Super-Wal-Mart at the once Wonderland Mall scheme will be the perfect cover-up to convince Livonia that its citizens will not pay 3 million dollars to SMART. The opt out work and SMART buses are illegal to run the Livonia and black folks can't get to their jobs. Other than one D-DOT bus that runs crosstown on Plymouth Rd.

[That Great Guy]

That Livonia City Council member comments started that racist parade to dupe its citizens to opt out SMART buses, instead of 'Let's Keep Blacks out of out city' Let's tell them that SMART has shift its dollars to Dearborn. Thus, we don't have 3 million dollars. Also the Super-Wal-Mart at the once Wonderland Mall scheme will be the perfect cover-up to convince Livonia that its citizens will not pay 3 million dollars to SMART. The opt out work and SMART buses are illegal to run the Livonia and black folks can't get to their jobs. Other than one D-DOT bus that runs crosstown on Plymouth Rd.

It is not illegal to run SMART in Livonia. The vast majority of Livonia residents want the blacks and SMART back.

Unfortunately, SMART officials and the Transportation Riders United are among many which supported the vast over $40 Million dollars per year cuts in operating subsidies from MDOT to be shifted to Northern Oakland County to build the vast NEW multi billion dollar freeways.

The August tax is not a renewal at all. it is instead a tax increase AND direct tax shift from State to Local funding.

This tax shifts the burden of paying for both SMART and DDOT from those who drive to the lower income people and it a tax write off for the rich

This tax has resulted in vast bus service reductions.

SMART is currently in violation of the Civil Rights ACT of 1964 due to the Livonia Opt. Out. They are required to do a demographic analysis of the impact of this but have not done so.

Livonia residents did not choose to eliminate SMART. The decision was made by our leaders in Lansing and SEMCOG to favor buying the Kazoo and Detroit rail and expand freeways. That is why the TRU does not care. It is a money grab and the cars and trains in Livonia have won.

YES, Danny you are right about the $3 Million per year. It came from Lansing but now you can take a train to Chicago or share I-75 with overweight trucks by spending $140 Million for Mr. Snyder's railroad who can't fix the potholes and buses in Detroit where children go without shoes.

Welcome to the NEW Soviet Union, unless you support

save the fuel tax org