Other midwestern cities getting strongarmed by billionaire sports owners.

[ABetterDetroit]

[QUOTE=brizee;430422]http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2...-indy/7562117/

It's not quite the parking lot moves Illitch makes but it's still insane.*

Miami also got played by the Marlins a few years ago.

Even LA is trying to put out for the NFL.

*What really sucks is that the contract for the Wings guarantees the Pistons will never use the facilities.[/QUOTE

Poor Indy... The host city of Sports, Peeps are making hotel reservations years in advance just hopeing there team makes it there in hoop or football. They really are going to finance another sports stadium after the success their downtown has had hosting events? Fools!

Miami! Housing meltdown kicked their ass so far up they could taste it, but here we are 6 years later and again only one word describes it. "Boomtown". Again. For like the 5th time. Finally they will pay the price for low unemployment!

LA CA The city in the US with the most upward mobility in the entire country, has shit loads of wealth, opportunity, advancement. They are just clueless in that backward has-been city.

[Lombaowski]

Folks are either wrong or carelessly wrong discussing the location of the Nationals Park.

The precise location is the southern part of "Near Southeast" which is the area south of the southwest/southeast freeway, S. Capitol, S.E, and ultimately the Anacostia River. The stadium is just south of M Street, S.E. [[think it is actually N St. S.E.).

It is approximately one mile south of the Capitol.

ANACOSTIA area of D.C is the OTHER SIDE of the Anacostia River. Anacostia has nothing to do with the stadium or 'Near Southeast."

BTW, the Southeast/Southwest Freeway divided Capitol Hill from "Near Southeast" and the ole 'right side/wrong side of the [[freeway)'.

Capitol Hill is very, very expensive residential. Near southeast was light industrial, housing projects, etc. etc.

BTW, as I've posted in other threads, there have been thousands of housing units, mostly apartments, built in the area of Nationals Park. The thing which hurt development was that the stadium opened 3/2008. The economic crash came 9/2008.

I find the development near Nationals Park, breathtaking.

I need to get some 2000 / 2010 Census numbers for population in that area.

Here is a great, great website on the ballpark area:

http://www.jdland.com/dc/index.cfm

I have Nats Seasons tickets, I know exactly where it is. I worked right across the river for two years, I could see the ballpark.

The area that it is in is considered Anacostia Waterfront, it is the area directly across the Anacostia river and adjacent to the Navy Yard. SE DC is the correct nomenclature, but when you think of SE you associate it with Anacostia. Some call it Navy Yard, some call it Anacostia, some call it southeast, some call it waterfront. Not that it matters, what I said is still accurate.

The Anacostia Waterfront area of Washington, DC is undergoing a massive transformation. With a $10 billion restoration and revitalization plan underway, the Anacostia Waterfront is the city’s fastest-growing area of employment, entertainment and residential growth. The redevelopment project, which includes the building of Nationals Park, the Washington Nationals new baseball stadium, will also create 6,500 units of new housing, three million square feet of new office space, 32 acres of new parkland and a 20-mile network of riverside trails. Local government and advocacy groups are working towards cleaning up the Anacostia River to restore its ecosystem.

Across South Capital toward Fort McNair is all public housing. All that area looks mostly like Detroit, run down and dicey.

To the North three blocks there is a brew pub. Outside the centerfield gate there is a connex container area that is a bar called the bullpen. It is an outdoor place that sometimes is open, sometimes isn't. This is essentially the only thing down near the stadium. You have to walk north and east to get to a few more restaurants, six or seven blocks away. The DC welcome site lists Five Guys as the 4th best of four restaurant and bar options close to the stadium. Right across the river is Anacostia Park and the worse crime in DC.

The city pays $32 million a year to administer the stadium, and got a pretty bad deal in general. Of that $32 million it is estimated the Nats stadium and areas immediately surrounding the park that are there because of the park, are generating $13 million in revenue. There is no giant Ferris wheel, no restaurants, no boutique shops, no bars, nothing. Nothing that the city thought would be there is there and most here take offense to your assertion that it is due to the economic crash.

DC was not impacted like Detroit was, or really anywhere else was during the downturn. Here is a good article on DC in Time that explains. Between the wars and the gentrification of the city as the east coast San Francisco, DC has weathered the storm extremely well. Those using the economic downturn as an excuse for the area around the stadium not seeing a boom are missing the main point. The stadium should have never been built there, it was a concession made to keep the team playing in DC and not in NoVA.

People have opined that the stadium would have been better suited in the suburbs since 85% of the Nats fans attending the games are not living in DC.

The economic revival there is far from breathtaking, it's actually very disappointing. The area was supposed to draw a number of chains, local business of all kinds and thousands and thousands of new residents. That has not happened. Any gains in the Navy Yard neighborhood are incidental to the stadium, DC is a booming housing market and a chic place to live. At this point most of the prurchased commercial property is being held hostage, or have slow moving projects underway. The neighborhood will likely get better and better, but that is due to DC housing prices, the city's growing popularity as a great place to live, and because there is just so much space available. It will have almost nothing to due with the ballpark.

[Lombaowski]

There's nothing wrong with the NBA. They are more popular and draw more fans than the NHL. The NBA is always bashed, and I think I know why.

Why? I'm guessing it isn't because the golden age of the NBA in the 1980s is long past? That the stars are mostly boring? That it is extremely predictable? That there are too many fouls called? That the game is basically 15 seconds of passing and a 22 foot chuck? That the game no longer values post play or guys taking it to the rack?

Was that the answer you were looking for?

[Lombaowski]

I see note of 'gentrification' in a post above.

No folks were displaced by the ballpark [[If I remember right between 15 - 25 folks lived in old houses in the area which wasn't residential at all - it was light industrial, kind of an urban wasteland) or the area which are now becoming apartment buildings.

This is NOT a case where poor folks got displaced by rich folk, but where light industrial area has turned into a pricey residential area. This isn't like the 70s and 80s where apartment buildings were converted to pricey condos.

For those into D.C. demographics, D.C. is a growing city [[yep, hard to believe).

Most of the new residential activity is near the Nationals Ballpark and an area called "NoMa".

NoMa, Shaw, Eckington, Woodridge, Brentwood, etc. NoMa is three miles form Nat's park, not sure I would call that near.

You're also not painting a fair and balanced picture, DC is very much displacing people. Happening every day.

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/2...gentrification

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...1f9_story.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...57d_story.html

You sure it's not like the 70s or 80s? I have nothing against revitalization of neighborhoods and cities and wish this would happen in Detroit. But let's not pretend it doesn't come at a cost to longtime residents, because that is just a matter of reality.

[Hermod]

Why? I'm guessing it isn't because the golden age of the NBA in the 1980s is long past? That the stars are mostly boring? That it is extremely predictable? That there are too many fouls called? That the game is basically 15 seconds of passing and a 22 foot chuck? That the game no longer values post play or guys taking it to the rack?

Was that the answer you were looking for?

Raise the baskets six feet and return it to being a game of skill.

[rb336]

Why? I'm guessing it isn't because the golden age of the NBA in the 1980s is long past? That the stars are mostly boring? That it is extremely predictable? That there are too many fouls called? That the game is basically 15 seconds of passing and a 22 foot chuck? That the game no longer values post play or guys taking it to the rack?

Was that the answer you were looking for?

I was watching hockey and basketball replays the other day. Hockey is faster in slow motion than basketball is regular speed. Defense died in the NBA because the Pistons knew how to stop Jordan

[eastland]

There's nothing wrong with the NBA. They are more popular and draw more fans than the NHL. The NBA is always bashed, and I think I know why.

The NHL actually has higher attendance figures than the NBA. Check out the NBA attendance numbers for Atlanta, Milwaukee, Denver, Detroit, and Philadelphia.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

The NHL actually has higher attendance figures than the NBA. Check out the NBA attendance numbers for Atlanta, Milwaukee, Denver, Detroit, and Philadelphia.

Actually we're both wrong. The NBA was third though in 2011. Not sure about now.

http://www.sportingnews.com/soccer/s...american-sport

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Why? I'm guessing it isn't because the golden age of the NBA in the 1980s is long past? That the stars are mostly boring? That it is extremely predictable? That there are too many fouls called? That the game is basically 15 seconds of passing and a 22 foot chuck? That the game no longer values post play or guys taking it to the rack?

Was that the answer you were looking for?

Not my fault that the game has become more perimeter with the 3 pt shot. This is how it has evolved, less post play because the traditional Center is a dying breed and you have 6'11 players shooting 3's. They play that way in college as well, so are you down on the college game as well, or just the NBA? And Basketball is hardly boring. Hockey is boring outside the occasional fisticuffs.

[Lombaowski]

Not my fault that the game has become more perimeter with the 3 pt shot. This is how it has evolved, less post play because the traditional Center is a dying breed and you have 6'11 players shooting 3's. They play that way in college as well.

Yeah, and it sucks IMO. Pistons are absolutely the worst team to watch too, pass to Josh Smith, he dribbles for seven seconds beyond the 3-point line, he makes a move and chucks a 20 foot brick. I love Kevin Durant and Lebron is fun to watch also, but the league stinks. Warriors and Clippers run an 80s style I guess, they are also ok.

I think I'm just jaded because the NBA was always my favorite sport grwoing up, now I really have a tough time watching. And it's not because my team stinks, I can watch baseball or football when my teams aren't good and enjoy it. Know what I mean?

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Yeah, and it sucks IMO. Pistons are absolutely the worst team to watch too, pass to Josh Smith, he dribbles for seven seconds beyond the 3-point line, he makes a move and chucks a 20 foot brick. I love Kevin Durant and Lebron is fun to watch also, but the league stinks. Warriors and Clippers run an 80s style I guess, they are also ok.

I think I'm just jaded because the NBA was always my favorite sport grwoing up, now I really have a tough time watching. And it's not because my team stinks, I can watch baseball or football when my teams aren't good and enjoy it. Know what I mean?

We won't even bring the Pistons up. A storied NBA franchise that has lost it's way. I hope Gores gets a clue and build this team back to what it once was or sell it. He doesn't seem to know what he's doing. It's just a new toy to play with for him.

[emu steve]

NoMa, Shaw, Eckington, Woodridge, Brentwood, etc. NoMa is three miles form Nat's park, not sure I would call that near.

You're also not painting a fair and balanced picture, DC is very much displacing people. Happening every day.

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/2...gentrification

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...1f9_story.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...57d_story.html

You sure it's not like the 70s or 80s? I have nothing against revitalization of neighborhoods and cities and wish this would happen in Detroit. But let's not pretend it doesn't come at a cost to longtime residents, because that is just a matter of reality.

RE: Ballpark and NoMa.

If you read my quote, "Most of the new residential activity is near the Nationals Ballpark and an area called "NoMa".

There is an 'and' in the sentence joining two separate areas [[near the ball park and NoMa).

Two separate areas, completely. One is NW and the other SE.

[emu steve]

I have Nats Seasons tickets, I know exactly where it is. I worked right across the river for two years, I could see the ballpark.

The area that it is in is considered Anacostia Waterfront, it is the area directly across the Anacostia river and adjacent to the Navy Yard. SE DC is the correct nomenclature, but when you think of SE you associate it with Anacostia. Some call it Navy Yard, some call it Anacostia, some call it southeast, some call it waterfront. Not that it matters, what I said is still accurate.



Across South Capital toward Fort McNair is all public housing. All that area looks mostly like Detroit, run down and dicey.

To the North three blocks there is a brew pub. Outside the centerfield gate there is a connex container area that is a bar called the bullpen. It is an outdoor place that sometimes is open, sometimes isn't. This is essentially the only thing down near the stadium. You have to walk north and east to get to a few more restaurants, six or seven blocks away. The DC welcome site lists Five Guys as the 4th best of four restaurant and bar options close to the stadium. Right across the river is Anacostia Park and the worse crime in DC.

The city pays $32 million a year to administer the stadium, and got a pretty bad deal in general. Of that $32 million it is estimated the Nats stadium and areas immediately surrounding the park that are there because of the park, are generating $13 million in revenue. There is no giant Ferris wheel, no restaurants, no boutique shops, no bars, nothing. Nothing that the city thought would be there is there and most here take offense to your assertion that it is due to the economic crash.

DC was not impacted like Detroit was, or really anywhere else was during the downturn. Here is a good article on DC in Time that explains. Between the wars and the gentrification of the city as the east coast San Francisco, DC has weathered the storm extremely well. Those using the economic downturn as an excuse for the area around the stadium not seeing a boom are missing the main point. The stadium should have never been built there, it was a concession made to keep the team playing in DC and not in NoVA.

People have opined that the stadium would have been better suited in the suburbs since 85% of the Nats fans attending the games are not living in DC.

The economic revival there is far from breathtaking, it's actually very disappointing. The area was supposed to draw a number of chains, local business of all kinds and thousands and thousands of new residents. That has not happened. Any gains in the Navy Yard neighborhood are incidental to the stadium, DC is a booming housing market and a chic place to live. At this point most of the prurchased commercial property is being held hostage, or have slow moving projects underway. The neighborhood will likely get better and better, but that is due to DC housing prices, the city's growing popularity as a great place to live, and because there is just so much space available. It will have almost nothing to due with the ballpark.

Amazing you and I have roots in D.C. [[I have been here since 1979) and really, really disagree about a LOT.

I have never, though, heard the area near Nationals Park referred to as "Anacostia".

As you know, Southeast has a LOT of neighborhoods, e.g., Capitol Hill is part SE and part NE, "Near Southeast" [[that's a neighborhood name) refers to the area south of the Southeast expressway to the Anacostia, Anacostia is the 'other' side of Anacostia River [[yes, rivers like the Anacostia and Detroit Rivers have two sides and no one calls Windsor 'Detroit River waterfront').

[emu steve]

As far as development, Nationals Park turned an area which because of its light industrial usage, and every other impediment into a rapidly developing area.

I would venture a GUESS that the area from the Southeast Freeway to the Anacostia River has as many new housing units [[almost all apartments or condos) as any area in America [[other than northern end of Miami Beach which has apts/condos 'as far as the eye can see). Many are completed. Many are in the works this year, 2014.

JDLAND.COM reports there are over 1,000 apartment units under construction there in 2014.

Here is a map of what has been accomplished near the ballpark and what is in the planning stages. [[note the checks and stars). Very, very impressive for an area which was an urban wasteland!!!

http://www.jdland.com/dc/project-archive.cfm

[Pickford-Bentler]

I can answer the chicken or egg question with a photo [wish I could do an insert image. ]

The last photo set [[scroll to the bottom) is of the Nationals Ballpark site in 2006 / 2012. [[construction started in 2006 and was completed 03/2008).

Does it look 'ripe for redevelopment'? [[look at the photo dated Feb. 19, 2006).

http://www.jdland.com/dc/photoarchiv...?group=jdfaves

Pentagon City looked like a barren wasteland when I purchased my first Condo in that area, in 1987.

My question is more along the lines of what made these areas become better?

Location?

A collective attitude that urban core are not bad places to live?

The Metro stops?

Building stadiums?


I think all of the above create a synergy.

[emu steve]

"You sure it's not like the 70s or 80s? I have nothing against revitalization of neighborhoods and cities and wish this would happen in Detroit. But let's not pretend it doesn't come at a cost to longtime residents, because that is just a matter of reality."

I'll repeat the statement I've made MANY times in this thread:

The number of folks displaced by the Nationals Park was less than 100.

This isn't gentrification if someone builds an apartment complex on empty land.

Gentrification is happening in D.C. but not because of Nationals Park.

[emu steve]

Pentagon City looked like a barren wasteland when I purchased my first Condo in that area, in 1987.

My question is more along the lines of what made these areas become better?

Location?

A collective attitude that urban core are not bad places to live?

The Metro stops?

Building stadiums?


I think all of the above create a synergy.

Bingo!!

Nationals Park was chosen for several reasons:

1). Land there was MUCH, MUCH cheaper than L'Effant Plaza. D.C. didn't want to pay top dollar for real estate.

2). Yes, the land wasn't developed so it was easier to acquire. D.C. government wanted to foster development in that area.

3). The subway stop is one [[very) long block away. The green line was very much underutilized.

4). If the park had been built in the 'burbs, e.g., out by Dulles, Maryland fans would take hours to make a 7 p.m. week night game. Nationals Park is highly accessible to fans from D.C., Maryland, and Virginia.

[Dbest]

Gores makes me sick really. He didn't use the amnesty and it has cost us, he is cheap it seems like. Now he's "upgrading" the palace with some pleather seats and giant Mitsubishi flat so suburbanites can continue to pretend its some great stadium. I couldn't believe Gores had to greet/hug each Bad-Boy at the free throw line following introduction during the recent
ceremony.Annoying to say the least...

As for the NBA's popularity, its seen in more countries than all our other professional sports combined. Michael Jordan and Lebron James are more nationally/globally known than any hockey player including Gretzky. You can easily argue that Jordan is the most recognizable sports figure EVER.

ESPN didn't offer any split on advertising dollars to the NHL when they were negotiating on a new deal several years ago, NHL opted to go their own route and re-badged OLN as a new network and home to the NHL. They also reached an agreement with NBC sports a little later. [[Hockey Night gone)

Maybe I got too spoiled watching the Wings but I've become disinterested, it feels like an inferior sport.

[Pickford-Bentler]

Bingo!!

Nationals Park was chosen for several reasons:

1). Land there was MUCH, MUCH cheaper than L'Effant Plaza. D.C. didn't want to pay top dollar for real estate.

2). Yes, the land wasn't developed so it was easier to acquire. D.C. government wanted to foster development in that area.

3). The subway stop is one [[very) long block away. The green line was very much underutilized.

4). If the park had been built in the 'burbs, e.g., out by Dulles, Maryland fans would take hours to make a 7 p.m. week night game. Nationals Park is highly accessible to fans from D.C., Maryland, and Virginia.

I believe there was a thought that the Northern MD suburban area would stay with the O's and the Nat's would become Virginia's team.

The Northern Va. road network is awful. I would never drive to a game there from Montgomery County, where I presently reside.

Dulles will have a Metro stop in 2018.


Getting a large Federal agency to locate by a Metro is a key part of the puzzle. The USPTO moved to Eisenhower Avenue and that area has saw a lot of new development.

NAVSEA moved to the Navy Yard.

Crystal City lost both of the above, but has filled the void with defense contractors such as Boeing.

[emu steve]

I believe there was a thought that the Northern MD suburban area would stay with the O's and the Nat's would become Virginia's team.

The Northern Va. road network is awful. I would never drive to a game there from Montgomery County, where I presently reside.

Dulles will have a Metro stop in 2018.


Getting a large Federal agency to locate by a Metro is a key part of the puzzle. The USPTO moved to Eisenhower Avenue and that area has saw a lot of new development.

NAVSEA moved to the Navy Yard.

Crystal City lost both of the above, but has filled the void with defense contractors such as Boeing.

There are no sure bets, BUT an urban planner worth his/her salt should be able to predict if a subway stop or federal office building would spur development.

Yesterday I was in D.C. and decided to drive by Nationals Park and out S.Capitol/Suitland Parkway to Suitland where the Census Bureau [[and NOAA) is located.

I worked there in the 80s. It was a very bad urban area [[a little like the old Olympia area); very few left the 'reservation' for lunch, except maybe Popeyes.

Fast forward, they built beautiful new glass office building complex, a subway stop, etc.

Amount of new development adjacent - zero as far as I can tell.

It still has a fortress type atmosphere.

It is still a very bad urban area. I didn't stop for a cup of coffee...

I'm not an urban planner but I could have predicted success for Nationals Park or [[will predict) Ilitches' new arena. I would NOT have predicted success for the Suitland Federal Center.

[Pickford-Bentler]

There are no sure bets, BUT an urban planner worth his/her salt should be able to predict if a subway stop or federal office building would spur development.

Yesterday I was in D.C. and decided to drive by Nationals Park and out S.Capitol/Suitland Parkway to Suitland where the Census Bureau [[and NOAA) is located.

I worked there in the 80s. It was a very bad urban area [[a little like the old Olympia area); very few left the 'reservation' for lunch, except maybe Popeyes.

Fast forward, they built beautiful new glass office building complex, a subway stop, etc.

Amount of new development adjacent - zero as far as I can tell.

It still has a fortress type atmosphere.

It is still a very bad urban area. I didn't stop for a cup of coffee...

I'm not an urban planner but I could have predicted success for Nationals Park or [[will predict) Ilitches' new arena. I would NOT have predicted success for the Suitland Federal Center.

Suitland does not have the ideal location that the area around National's Stadium has. From the National area one can walk or bike to Virginia via the pedestrian route that is part of the 14th Street "mess". It is a "mess" for commuters, but a blessing for runners and cyclists. I must have done the loop via the Key and 14th street bridges about a thousand times when I lived in the area. If I still lived by Crystal City, I would have checked out the Nationals area on bike or on foot. IOW, I think the area will draw young single people with decent incomes who are into a car-free lifestyle. Some old empty-nesters also like these self-contained walkable communities. There were a significant number in Crystal City. I guess I am saying that walkable proximity to interesting things to do is a factor. That said, urban core or suburbs can create this environment. Personally, being close the Potomac River is a big plus.

[Detroitnerd]

Good point there steve.

Yeah it's "free." Because you already paid for it.

[emu steve]

Suitland does not have the ideal location that the area around National's Stadium has. From the National area one can walk or bike to Virginia via the pedestrian route that is part of the 14th Street "mess". It is a "mess" for commuters, but a blessing for runners and cyclists. I must have done the loop via the Key and 14th street bridges about a thousand times when I lived in the area. If I still lived by Crystal City, I would have checked out the Nationals area on bike or on foot. IOW, I think the area will draw young single people with decent incomes who are into a car-free lifestyle. Some old empty-nesters also like these self-contained walkable communities. There were a significant number in Crystal City. I guess I am saying that walkable proximity to interesting things to do is a factor. That said, urban core or suburbs can create this environment. Personally, being close the Potomac River is a big plus.

I'm a retired fed [[for the last couple years) but if I were still working Nationals Park area would be a nice area.

As you know, getting from home to work in 15 or 20 minutes [[no driving or parking expense) is a tremendous thing for workers in D.C. and other commute-challenged cities.

[emu steve]

This post is, I guess, on topic for this thread, although off topic to Detroit.

A poster in this thread was very unhappy with the lack of progress around Nationals Park [[lack of good places to eat and drink) esp. in the blocks nearest to the stadium.

Turns out what the author calls the 'half street hole' [[it is indeed half street S.E. and a hole [[literal - dug out) has been going through various legal issues over the years and apparently Lehman Brothers finally took over ownership.

http://www.jdland.com/dc/index.cfm/3...f-Street-Hole/

What will happen I know not, but there is nothing like legal problems to turn something promising into a drawn out ugh!!

This property has been through a lot of legal and financial problems... but it shows how a very desirable piece of real estate can remain not built [[but no surface parking, it appears to literally be a dug out hole).

Detroit isn't alone in having these kinds of real estate problems. The 2008 financial crisis hit D.C. and real estate development too.