Could we see new Redwing Arena renderings wednesday [[4/9/14)?

[Bham1982]

So folks can stop at the casino, football stadium, baseball stadium and then continue right into the Inner Harbor. Sounds well done to me.

And yet Baltimore is an economic and finanicial disaster. The other East Coast cities [[NYC, Boston, Philly, DC) are all booming, and Baltimore continues to lose population, jobs, and economic might, even though Baltimore has downtown casino-sports complexes, and the other cities don't.

I'm shocked that sports venues and a casino haven't made the city more desirable. Everyone knows that Gary, IN and East St. Louis, IL were instantly made desirable cities once the casinos arrived, and random taxpayer funded sports venues have always been huge economic generators [[see the glorious Silverdome, and booming Pontiac).

[emu steve]

Re: the landlots west of Comerica. I think it's entirely possible [[and this doesn't share the Ilitch-is-evil narrative so many here favor) that Olympia has always intended to develop them, when market conditions merited it. Condensing parking into a smaller footprint and building on those lots might now or soon make financial sense. In 2000 erecting apartments or offices there, with storefronts underneath would have been foolhardy, and long-festering empty eyesores. Not the cast now. What could go there, how tall the buildings should be and other questions now a feasible to address. I hope they do get developed.

"Condensing parking into a smaller footprint and building on those lots might now or soon make financial sense."

I really like this statement.

Essentially a lot of land sat vacant [[I consider surface parking quasi vacant. Before some one jumps down my throat. The ultimate goal of downtown land isn't surface parking. That might be the best option at THAT POINT IN TIME. The ultimate goal is to build an office building, sports facility, maybe an apartment building, etc. or even a parking garage. A parking garage maximizes space for maximal number of vehicles, i.e., high density).

As more and more surface parking spaces get eaten up by development [[e.g., all of that event parking on Woodward where the arena will be) then there will be the need for more parking garages to compensate for those parking spaces.

As surface parking lots get eaten up, then building land becomes less plentiful and more desirable.

Hopefully the new arena construction will lead to a mini-rush for land in the area realizing that slowly less and less land will be available going forward.

[emu steve]

To take things a step further, even though Ilitich I believe promised ONE parking garage for 500 [[?) vehicles, that does not equal the number of surface parking spaces along Woodward from the Fisher to near Temple.

Let's assume a couple thousand cars park on those surface lots for a Tiger game.

Say 2,000 - 500 [[new garage) = 1,500 parking space shortage.

What will fill that demand? More garages behind the Fox? Maybe a garage east of Woodward near Ford Field? Maybe something connected to Gilbert's planned development near the jail site?

Whenever there is a shortage of something [[e.g., rental units, office space, and even parking spaces) that is a catalyst for development.

Just hope it is smart and well thought out.

[emu steve]

And yet Baltimore is an economic and finanicial disaster. The other East Coast cities [[NYC, Boston, Philly, DC) are all booming, and Baltimore continues to lose population, jobs, and economic might, even though Baltimore has downtown casino-sports complexes, and the other cities don't.

You are the first person to put Baltimore in the same sentence with Boston, Philly, NYC, D.C., etc.

Baltimore has been a working class city from day one. It shares very little with these other great cities.

Actually what makes Baltimore what it is [[POSITIVE) is its sports teams and their facilities and the Inner Harbor.

Question [[not a comment): Is Baltimore a victim of de-industrialization of America? Q2: If so, has Baltimore survived despite it? [[Wasn't Flint a prosperous city until the automobile companies decided to beat cheeks out of town and leave the area without it employment and tax base?).

[Bham1982]

You are the first person to put Baltimore in the same sentence with Boston, Philly, NYC, D.C., etc.

There are five major East Coast cities, including Baltimore. This has been true for about 200 years. Baltimore is always included as a major East Coast city.

In fact, Baltimore is historically the #3 East Coast city in population. It has had massive population loss, though, so not sure if it's still ahead of Boston and DC [[if so, probably not for long).

Baltimore has been a working class city from day one. It shares very little with these other great cities.

It shares a great deal with these other cities. Philly and Baltimore, in particular, have very similar economic bases, building stock and architecture. Both are blue collar manufacturing/shipbuilding towns that are now heavily invested in the life sciences

Actually what makes Baltimore what it is [[POSITIVE) is its sports teams and their facilities and the Inner Harbor.

Sports team facilities are not relevant to a city's greatness. Most people don't care at all about sports, and those that do don't judge cities on where sports venues are placed.

[emu steve]

Sports team facilities are not relevant to a city's greatness. Most people don't care at all about sports, and those that do don't judge cities on where sports venues are placed.

Speaking for yourself, I trust.

Right or wrong, folks DO judge a city based on their pro sports team[[s) which are a measure of a cities' membership as a major city. [[a city gets dinged if it doesn't have MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL).

[Bham1982]

Speaking for yourself, I trust.

Right or wrong, folks DO judge a city based on their pro sports team[[s) which are a measure of a cities' membership as a major city. [[a city gets dinged if it doesn't have MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL).

Which is why LA, one of the two dominant cities in the U.S., suffers so badly? LOL. LA needs to strive toward the greatness of Green Bay and Jacksonville...

MLS is probably bigger than NHL anyways. MLS has higher viewership and attendance. NHL is largely regional in appeal.

[SpartanDawg]

Which is why LA, one of the two dominant cities in the U.S., suffers so badly? LOL. LA needs to strive toward the greatness of Green Bay and Jacksonville...

MLS is probably bigger than NHL anyways. MLS has higher viewership and attendance. NHL is largely regional in appeal.

lol wut... cite facts if you're gonna spew bs

[Bham1982]

lol wut... cite facts if you're gonna spew bs

MLS attendance is definitely higher than NHL.

I'm not sure if MLS viewership is higher than NHL, but soccer viewership is definitely higher than hockey viewership. The main TV viewership for soccer in the U.S. is Champions League stuff, and the various EPL and Mexican matches, moreso than MLS.

But soccer will be, at worst, the #3 U.S. sport in around 15-20 years. It's often ranked as #2 among under-18 crowd. It destroys hockey and will possibly overtake basketball. MLB is in relative decline, but still popular enough that it probably has 50 years as the #2 sport.

Hockey is very big locally, but almost irrelevent nationally. Listen to sports talk radio anywhere but Michigan.

[emu steve]

[QUOTE=Bham1982;435358]Which is why LA, one of the two dominant cities in the U.S., suffers so badly? LOL. LA needs to strive toward the greatness of Green Bay and Jacksonville...

QUOTE]

Thank you, thank you, thank you...

Green Bay is a small, cold [[weather) city which has a reputation BECAUSE of the Packers.

Grand Rapids > Green Bay [[but GB has the Packers).

Otherwise, it might be as forgettable as many small Midwestern towns including some in MI but I won't name names to avoid upsetting folks.

[ghettopalmetto]

Actually what makes Baltimore what it is [[POSITIVE) is its sports teams and their facilities and the Inner Harbor.

Yes, those three bars across the parking lot from Camden Yards, and the chain tourist traps on the Inner Harbor are something fantastic. They make a great playground for visiting suburbanites.

The other 80 square miles don't matter. Not a bit.

[ferndalien]

MLS attendance is definitely higher than NHL.

I guess that depends on how you define "attendance.
In 2013, MLS had roughly 6 million attendees. [ ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_L...cer_attendance ]
2012/13 NHL attendance was nearly 13million. [ ref http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance/_/year/2013 ] [[keep in mind, that was the short season due to the lockout)

Average attendance per game does sometimes swing in the direction of MLS, depending on the team/market.

[Bham1982]

I guess that depends on how you define "attendance.

Average attendance per game does sometimes swing in the direction of MLS, depending on the team/market.

Yeah obviously I'm talking attendance by match, not total. MLS has a short season.

MLB, for example, has, by many multiples, the highest sports attendance in the U.S., but everyone knows the NFL is the dominant league and football the dominant sport. Even Game 7 of the World Series can't hope to compete with a ho-hum Monday Night Football matchup.

[DetroitPlanner]

Is it true they are going to make it look like a giant Cowboy Boot and cover it with LED and neon and a Giant statue of Joe Louis holding a Pizza sort of like this guy? http://www.stockpilingmoms.com/2012/...pack-giveaway/

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

MLS attendance is certainly higher per game than NHL, but nearly every MLS team plays in a venue much larger than an NHL arena. Several play in NFL stadiums. There are more than twice as many regular season NHL games; there are a dozen more NHL teams than MLS teams; average ticket price for an NHL game is several times higher than MLS, too. Millions more people see NHL hockey live than see MLS every year.

As for television viewing, it is even more in hockey's favor. Every NHL team has a lucrative [[and much-watched) local broadcast and/or cable outlet. And [[inter)nationally, the NHL has expensive and broad distribution via the family of NBC networks and Rogers Communications [[in Canada). I don't think MLS teams even have English-language radio broadcasts [[Spanish broadcasts are in several cities).

I am a big fan of both sports [[well, actually, most sports; except NASCAR). But hockey is, and will continue to be, the fourth major US sport for years to come. Granted, soccer is growing steadily, and MLS looks to be a permanent league [[unlike so many soccer startups of the past). Additionally, there are markets, especially in the West and South, with young, substantially Hispanic populations, in areas without a hockey culture, where soccer is already a dominant sport. But that isn't national; it's a local anomaly.

Hockey and soccer really don't compete. Their seasons barely overlap. Most importantly, both sports feature lots of really hot men.

[drjeff]

Yes, those three bars across the parking lot from Camden Yards, and the chain tourist traps on the Inner Harbor are something fantastic. They make a great playground for visiting suburbanites.

The other 80 square miles don't matter. Not a bit.

I used to live in Baltimore, between 1986 and 1994. Back then the Inner Harbor area was actually really thriving even with the locals. The last time I was there, about a year ago. It was totally dead. I don't think the new stadiums there really did much other than take a dead area and put some life into it, at least when there's an event. And the football stadium is really isolated from the rest of the city by freeways.

There's been a lot of gentrification in Baltimore and investment in both downtown and other areas of the city. It's generally a lot healthier than Detroit.

[Bham1982]

Hockey, if considered on a national level, is nowhere near the #4 U.S. sport. It's a niche, regional sport. Even the Stanley Cup has very minimal viewership.

http://deadspin.com/5916086/why-is-n...ley-cup-finals

Even the Premiere League matches on U.S. TV are comparable to national NHL hockey ratings. The Mexican matches [[esp. international matches) top NHL ratings.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Hockey, if considered on a national level, is nowhere near the #4 U.S. sport. It's a niche, regional sport. Even the Stanley Cup has very minimal viewership.

http://deadspin.com/5916086/why-is-n...ley-cup-finals

Even the Premiere League matches on U.S. TV are comparable to national NHL hockey ratings. The Mexican matches [[esp. international matches) top NHL ratings.

Bham1982, you are excluding regional broadcasts of hockey from your consideration of viewership. Yes, the very top soccer broadcasts can attract more viewers than an NHL national broadcast, but national [[NBCSN or NBC) broadcasts aren't where most hockey watching occurs. The FSN or Comcast or other regional networks are where most people watch most of their hockey. Similarly, baseball's regular season national telecasts draw far less viewers than the combined regional broadcast viewerships on a given night.

Lastly, comparing big-league international soccer games [[as opposed to MLS games) vs NHL games would be like comparing the Olympic hockey finals vs the MLS game of the week. Apples and oranges. NHL has far more viewers and attendees than MLS does. That's not a put down of soccer [[which I love). But hockey is the fourth largest sport in the US. Soccer may catch it one day. But that day isn't currently on the calendar.

[emu steve]

MLS attendance is definitely higher than NHL.

I'm not sure if MLS viewership is higher than NHL, but soccer viewership is definitely higher than hockey viewership. The main TV viewership for soccer in the U.S. is Champions League stuff, and the various EPL and Mexican matches, moreso than MLS.

But soccer will be, at worst, the #3 U.S. sport in around 15-20 years. It's often ranked as #2 among under-18 crowd. It destroys hockey and will possibly overtake basketball. MLB is in relative decline, but still popular enough that it probably has 50 years as the #2 sport.

Hockey is very big locally, but almost irrelevent nationally. Listen to sports talk radio anywhere but Michigan.

Shall we start a thread campaigning for MLS soccer in Detroit?

Still a lot of available land within the downtown/Midtown [[including WSU area), etc.

[401don]

As a Canadian, I correctly interpreted the title of this thread, "Could we see new Redwings Arena renderings 4/9/14?" to mean September 4, 2014.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Shall we start a thread campaigning for MLS soccer in Detroit?

Still a lot of available land within the downtown/Midtown [[including WSU area), etc.

I am not sure a thread would help, but I am all for it. The best site for a stadium is the old Tiger Stadium site, in my opinion. Among other reasons, Midtown land is getting too expensive to put together such a large plot.

[emu steve]

I am not sure a thread would help, but I am all for it. The best site for a stadium is the old Tiger Stadium site, in my opinion. Among other reasons, Midtown land is getting too expensive to put together such a large plot.

Expensive land is better than cheap land.

That means something good is happening or will be happening.

We're getting O/T but does Cass Tech has soccer? a new stadium could also serve high school soccer and high school football. [[I believe WSU's stadium was sold out over Labor Day for some big high school games - I think one game was Southfield vs. Cass Tech).

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Expense land is better than cheap land.

That means something good is happening or will be happening.

Agreed on that point. But since a start up MLS franchise will be a money loser for some time to come [[it would be years before it made money), building where it is cheaper is a better option, unless someone with deep pockets and no fear of losing money steps up.

Corktown, though, is also a good choice, in my opinion, because of it's proximity to a younger, hipper population, and Mexicantown [[soccer being a real draw among Hispanics).

Temporarily, they could play at Comerica Park [[the DC United shared RFK Stadium with the Nationals until Nationals Park opened, and the Yankees will share their stadium with the expansion Bronx MLS franchise for 3 seasons). It doesn't make for great soccer viewing, and presents some logistical challenges [[a removable pitcher's mound!). But it would be worth doing if it helped snare an MLS club.

[Bham1982]

Lastly, comparing big-league international soccer games [[as opposed to MLS games) vs NHL games would be like comparing the Olympic hockey finals vs the MLS game of the week.

The NHL is the world's premier hockey league. Obviously it should only be compared to the world's premier soccer. It utterly fails in comparison, even though the NHL is primarily U.S. and elite soccer is almost completely non-U.S.

Apples and oranges. NHL has far more viewers and attendees than MLS does.

It is apples and oranges, beacuse NHL is the top hockey league, and MLS is a lower-tier soccer league. But MLS still has more viewers and attendees than NHL.

That's not a put down of soccer [[which I love). But hockey is the fourth largest sport in the US. Soccer may catch it one day. But that day isn't currently on the calendar.

Hockey is nowhere close to 4th. There's golf, NASCAR, and soccer, and even horse racing, all of which have higher viewership.

[softailrider]

Shall we start a thread campaigning for MLS soccer in Detroit?

Still a lot of available land within the downtown/Midtown [[including WSU area), etc.

Let's do that but be sure they allow sleeping in the stadium.