Could we see new Redwing Arena renderings wednesday [[4/9/14)?

[jt1]

That isn't what he did with Comerica Park. Yes, there is parking on the West side of the stadium, but there is hardly an overwhelming amount of parking there. I think it's a good looking stadium, and it blends in well with downtown. The Joe is the fortress, and he had nothing to do with it's construction. Since Ilitch has not done a lot of new construction in the city, I think it is difficult to support the case that he builds ugly or isolated fortresses. At best you can say that his record on the construction of new projects in the city is incomplete. I'm hopeful the arena will be attractive and well integrated into the reviving neighborhood.

Yes and no with Comerica park. The park is nice and the design is nice but the way it is integrated into the city flat out sucks.

I'm hoping that Ilitch won't insist on this same path. If he does, it does really little to improve the dead zone between downtown and midtown on game days.

[emu steve]

Yes and no with Comerica park. The park is nice and the design is nice but the way it is integrated into the city flat out sucks.

I'm hoping that Ilitch won't insist on this same path. If he does, it does really little to improve the dead zone between downtown and midtown on game days.

I don't think integration will be an issue.

I expect the stadium to begin at Wooward and Heny and what only have say 25 - 30 feet setback from the curb? [[as if a bus was going to stand in front of the arena in a newly constructed curb lane).

I assume folks will get off at the M-1 rail stop or enter mostly through entrances at Woodward/Henry or Park/Henry - easy to go to and from Hockeytown.

I think this could be an absolute winner!!

[jt1]

I don't think integration will be an issue.

I expect the stadium to begin at Wooward and Heny and what only have say 25 - 30 feet setback from the curb? [[as if a bus was going to stand in front of the arena in a newly constructed curb lane).

I assume folks will get off at the M-1 rail stop or enter mostly through entrances at Woodward/Henry or Park/Henry - easy to go to and from Hockeytown.

I think this could be an absolute winner!!

Agreed but even if it is up to the curb, will it be a fortress that is only used 41 times a week or can there be a component that makes it accesible or usable for normal days?

Look no further than how Ilitch handled his 'plans' for having bars/restaurants in Comerica open all the time. 5the Avenue [[or something avenue) was evicted because he was going to find a better tenant and we have nothing. The beer garden space was supposed to be open year round which has never been the case.

Design is one thing, integration with the city is another, having a venue that operates beyond 41 days a year in another. For Comerica I would say noce design, poor integration, embarrasing use year round.

[emu steve]

Agreed but even if it is up to the curb, will it be a fortress that is only used 41 times a week or can there be a component that makes it accesible or usable for normal days?

Look no further than how Ilitch handled his 'plans' for having bars/restaurants in Comerica open all the time. 5the Avenue [[or something avenue) was evicted because he was going to find a better tenant and we have nothing. The beer garden space was supposed to be open year round which has never been the case.

Design is one thing, integration with the city is another, having a venue that operates beyond 41 days a year in another. For Comerica I would say noce design, poor integration, embarrasing use year round.

In fairness to Ilitch, baseball stadiums have little usage other than MLB games.

I suspect we'll see NCAA hockey and NCAA basketball games as well as non athletic usage.

[jt1]

In fairness to Ilitch, baseball stadiums have little usage other than MLB games.

I suspect we'll see NCAA hockey and NCAA basketball games as well as non athletic usage.

I agree and was not clear. I was talking about the retail/restaurant part that was supposed to be a year round operation. The spot of 5th Avenue and the Beer Garden were supposed to be open year round. 5th Avenue was typically busy and packed the place for shows but was evicted for Ilitch due to another restaurant that was lined up. Nothing has come of that space and it appears nothing will. Same goes for the space on the lower level of the North West side. I believe it is now souveniers but it was supposed to be a bar/restaurant.

There is no city requirement that there be business integrated into the design that can operate when games aren't being held. Clearly Ilitch doesn't understand that part. Walking past a brick wall or empty storefronts is no different than walking past vacant lots for the 324 days per year.

He also recently purchased the Veterans building. That has 'future surface lot' written all over it.

I hope he proves me wrong but my concerns are rooted in his history.

[emu steve]

I agree and was not clear. I was talking about the retail/restaurant part that was supposed to be a year round operation. The spot of 5th Avenue and the Beer Garden were supposed to be open year round. 5th Avenue was typically busy and packed the place for shows but was evicted for Ilitch due to another restaurant that was lined up. Nothing has come of that space and it appears nothing will. Same goes for the space on the lower level of the North West side. I believe it is now souveniers but it was supposed to be a bar/restaurant.

There is no city requirement that there be business integrated into the design that can operate when games aren't being held. Clearly Ilitch doesn't understand that part. Walking past a brick wall or empty storefronts is no different than walking past vacant lots for the 324 days per year.

He also recently purchased the Veterans building. That has 'future surface lot' written all over it.

I hope he proves me wrong but my concerns are rooted in his history.

I'm confused about the Veterans building.

I thought that Ilitch had promised to build an office building at that location so I'm surprised that he had not bought that land months ago.

Anyway, I'd be shocked if was used for parking.

BTW, I'd think Ilitch would want folks parking behind the Fox.

[SpartanDawg]

I'm confused about the Veterans building.

I thought that Ilitch had promised to build an office building at that location so I'm surprised that he had not bought that land months ago.

Anyway, I'd be shocked if was used for parking.

BTW, I'd think Ilitch would want folks parking behind the Fox.

So I read yesterday the footprint of the actual arena would be bound by Woodward, Sproat, Henry, and Park. And last June they announced there would be a 140,000 SF mixed-use building built at the corner of sproat and woodward, so I'm assuming that means the empty lot on the northwest corner of the street, since the arena would be on the southwest corner of those streets.. That would be really nice since it would really seal off the streetwall along woodward and do a great job of linking up Midtown to downtown.


And so then idealy the parking garage they want to build would be on the last empty lot on woodward between Henry and I-75 service drive.


picture for reference.

[emu steve]

So I read yesterday the footprint of the actual arena would be bound by Woodward, Sproat, Henry, and Park. And last June they announced there would be a 140,000 SF mixed-use building built at the corner of sproat and woodward, so I'm assuming that means the empty lot on the northwest corner of the street, since the arena would be on the southwest corner of those streets.. That would be really nice since it would really seal off the streetwall along woodward and do a great job of linking up Midtown to downtown.


And so then idealy the parking garage they want to build would be on the last empty lot on woodward between Henry and I-75 service drive.


picture for reference.

Agree with you COMPLETELY.

I can see the parking garage for the team and VIPs could go from Park to Woodward [[between Henry and the service drive) with the front of the garage having the 'team store' and hopefully the façade matches the arena. This is functional [[parking and team store) and stylish. Traffic would be via Clifford/Cass to Henry or the service drive.

I wonder if the arena façade will blend with the Hockeytown façade.

What I've read:

Arena, with 500 vehicle garage, team store and an office building at Woodward/Sproat [[NW corner).

We've 'checked all of those boxes.' And it could look really nice. Pls.

BTW, I was wrong about the Temple/Woodward block. That isn't needed for the office building.

[rb336]

the answer to the title of this thread is no

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I'm not concerned about it having lots of non-hockey usage. It will compete, unlike the Joe, for all the best events coming to SE Michigan. The Palace is a little larger, but this facility will be brand new and state of the art, located near lots of other amenities [[hotels, bars, restaurants, casinos, theaters) not nearby the Palace. It's also substantially closer to 2M+ SE Michiganders than the Palace is. It will host lots of concerts, ice shows, and all the other kinds of shows that frequent big city arenas. I bet it gets 300 events a year [[not all of which, of course, will bring 18,000 people in). Of course, too, there will be other athletic events, including I am certain some college hockey and basketball games [[at least invitational tournaments, and possibly UDM bball games). I would love to see Arena Football back. Plus, of course, I pray one day the Pistons will join the Wings downtown.

About the orientation of the arena, I bet it will have a significant entrance/presence leading to Temple Street, because I think Ilitch wants to create a busy corridor running from the stadiums/theatres/arenas to the MotorCity Casino.

[SpartanDawg]

I'm not concerned about it having lots of non-hockey usage. It will compete, unlike the Joe, for all the best events coming to SE Michigan. The Palace is a little larger, but this facility will be brand new and state of the art, located near lots of other amenities [[hotels, bars, restaurants, casinos, theaters) not nearby the Palace. It's also substantially closer to 2M+ SE Michiganders than the Palace is. It will host lots of concerts, ice shows, and all the other kinds of shows that frequent big city arenas. I bet it gets 300 events a year [[not all of which, of course, will bring 18,000 people in). Of course, too, there will be other athletic events, including I am certain some college hockey and basketball games [[at least invitational tournaments, and possibly UDM bball games). I would love to see Arena Football back. Plus, of course, I pray one day the Pistons will join the Wings downtown.

thank you. I really don't think people realize how much the Joe loses out to competing venues with all these other events. It seriously gets used for the 41 redwings games [[+/- a few for playoffs every year ) and then what.. maybe 10-15 other events? none of which really draw even 5,000 people?

When they say "Oh the arena is just fine why do we need a fancy new one???"

THIS IS WHY! The palace has an event in it over 300 days a year! Do you realize the impact on the economy of detroit it will have to be able to host these events here... it's silly and ignorant to say that getting a new one won't attract more money and businesses to the area. Hotel demand will increase, bars and restaurants will see a boost.. etc etc.

[masterblaster]

thank you. I really don't think people realize how much the Joe loses out to competing venues with all these other events. It seriously gets used for the 41 redwings games [[+/- a few for playoffs every year ) and then what.. maybe 10-15 other events? none of which really draw even 5,000 people?

When they say "Oh the arena is just fine why do we need a fancy new one???"

THIS IS WHY! The palace has an event in it over 300 days a year! Do you realize the impact on the economy of detroit it will have to be able to host these events here... it's silly and ignorant to say that getting a new one won't attract more money and businesses to the area. Hotel demand will increase, bars and restaurants will see a boost.. etc etc.

I see that the Hotel Eddystone and Hotel Park Avenue are just outside of the arena footprint. I hope someone can convince the Ilitches, DDA, and DEGC to restore these historic hotels; Their renovation might be justified if the new arena indeed attracts 300 events a year, as nearby hotel space would be needed.

[Dbest]

I could go either way in terms of style of the new arena. I think I want something kind of glitzy/modern for the Midtown area. AA and Lucas oil look almost the same, it would be a disappointment to model the stadium after Lucas Oil. Ilitch did this once with Commerica and its uncanny resemblance to Coors field in Denver... I think that something like these renderings for the Rupp arena renovation are more inline with what I'd like to see in terms of exterior...

Here is a video on the plans:

http://vimeo.com/85843018

From the NBBJ website:

http://www.nbbj.com/work/rupp-arena-reinvention/

[Downriviera]

I've said it before on these forums, I don't care about all the amenities. Get me close to the action. Those old enough to remember attending hockey games at the Olympia know what I'm talking about. You were right on top of the action and felt a part of the game. The Olympia and the Joe, both roughly 20,000 seat arenas for hockey. Yet if you sat in the last row of the balcony at Olympia you were probably 3 times closer to the action than the last row at the Joe. The drawback was some obstructed view seats, but nobody sat in those seats anyway. They just used that ticket as a standing room ticket. Same can be said about Tiger Stadium compared to Comerica Park.

[mikeg19]

So I read yesterday the footprint of the actual arena would be bound by Woodward, Sproat, Henry, and Park. And last June they announced there would be a 140,000 SF mixed-use building built at the corner of sproat and woodward, so I'm assuming that means the empty lot on the northwest corner of the street, since the arena would be on the southwest corner of those streets.. That would be really nice since it would really seal off the streetwall along woodward and do a great job of linking up Midtown to downtown.


And so then idealy the parking garage they want to build would be on the last empty lot on woodward between Henry and I-75 service drive.

If that's the footprint, the why the fuck are the Eddystone and Harbor Light in line for the wrecking ball?????

You wanna create density??? Here's a thought: RENOVATE THE FRIGGING BUILDINGS.

Don't get me wrong, I want the arena and development, but if that's truly the footprint, then there is not reason to tear them down other then for aesthetics. Same thing that happened to the Lafayette building: The Book Cadillac residents didn't wanna look at an ugly building next door. Well now they have bean sprouts and parsley to look at. How awesome.....

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Mikeg19, I don't know the specifics of the Eddystone and Harbor Light, but renovating can sometimes be much more expensive than tear down/rebuilding. Also, what you can do with a space is much more limited when working with the shell of an ld structure. But again, I don't know the specifics of those buildings.

Downriviera, I share your desire to have an "intimate" experience at the new arena [[a feeling one certainly does not get for any event at the Palace). Keep in mind, though, that the Olympia had a capacity of about 15,000. And with less legroom and narrower seating, it's no wonder it seemed more up close: it was a substantially smaller building than a modern arena. You might disagree about this, but I think most paying fans are happy to have more legroom, wider seats, more concession stands, and plentiful rest rooms. I think they can keep it somewhat more intimate than other venues [[which is why, I think they are not building a 20,000+ seat facility) while making the modern creature comforts plentiful.

[mikeg19]

Mikeg19, I don't know the specifics of the Eddystone and Harbor Light, but renovating can sometimes be much more expensive than tear down/rebuilding. Also, what you can do with a space is much more limited when working with the shell of an ld structure. But again, I don't know the specifics of those buildings.

From all accounts, these buildings are not in terrible shape. The Eddystone was in line for a condo renovation as recently as 2005. True, sometimes the costs outweigh the point of a renovation, but it would seem here that there have been a slew of buildings much past the "economically feasible" point that have come back to life [[Book Cadillac, Fort Shelby, Fox, Opera House, Etc). I guess I just don't get why they're hellbent on knocking them down.

[emu steve]

Mikeg19, I don't know the specifics of the Eddystone and Harbor Light, but renovating can sometimes be much more expensive than tear down/rebuilding. Also, what you can do with a space is much more limited when working with the shell of an ld structure. But again, I don't know the specifics of those buildings.

Downriviera, I share your desire to have an "intimate" experience at the new arena [[a feeling one certainly does not get for any event at the Palace). Keep in mind, though, that the Olympia had a capacity of about 15,000. And with less legroom and narrower seating, it's no wonder it seemed more up close: it was a substantially smaller building than a modern arena. You might disagree about this, but I think most paying fans are happy to have more legroom, wider seats, more concession stands, and plentiful rest rooms. I think they can keep it somewhat more intimate than other venues [[which is why, I think they are not building a 20,000+ seat facility) while making the modern creature comforts plentiful.

You are correct. I was a season ticket holder one year in the 70s and yes Olympia was a very 'intimate' arena.

I think earlier [[1960s?) the seating capacity was maybe 13,500.

And, of course, no suites. [[guess the Norris family sat in the press box???).

[townonenorth]

You are correct. I was a season ticket holder one year in the 70s and yes Olympia was a very 'intimate' arena.

I think earlier [[1960s?) the seating capacity was maybe 13,500.

And, of course, no suites. [[guess the Norris family sat in the press box???).

A I remember, the owner had a box tucked away in the corner of the arena.

[Gistok]

Mikeg19, I don't know the specifics of the Eddystone and Harbor Light, but renovating can sometimes be much more expensive than tear down/rebuilding. Also, what you can do with a space is much more limited when working with the shell of an ld structure. But again, I don't know the specifics of those buildings.

Renovating can be much more expensive than tearing down... especially if you want just a parking lot or a decorative sidewalk.

Both the Eddystone and Harbor Lights 13 story Louis Kamper designed hotels are on the National Register of Historic Places. So there is lots of historic tax credits available if Ilitch was so inclined, which he likely is not.

The nearby 8 story former Strathmore Hotel is being renovated into 129 rental units. It's in equal or worse condition than either the Eddystone and Harbor Lights, and it is not on the National Register. So if folks can make those numbers crunch for restoration, then the historic Eddystone and Harbor Lights have the added bonus of Federal Historic Tax Credits to boost.

However, the Ilitch's show no historic interest in their structures [[besides the Fox)... and although no announcement has been made about what will happen to either of these 2 historic hotels... anyone who has seen what became of the Wolverine Hotel and YWCA [[demoed) when Comerica Park replaced them with surface parking lots, should not wonder about what the outcome will be in regards to the plans around the arena site...

But one thing is certain... if the Eddystone and Harbor Lights do come down... the National Trust does provide for tax disincentives for tearing them down... costs that likely will be cushioned by the use of public funds...

[Downriviera]

Mikeg19, I don't know the specifics of the Eddystone and Harbor Light, but renovating can sometimes be much more expensive than tear down/rebuilding. Also, what you can do with a space is much more limited when working with the shell of an ld structure. But again, I don't know the specifics of those buildings.

Downriviera, I share your desire to have an "intimate" experience at the new arena [[a feeling one certainly does not get for any event at the Palace). Keep in mind, though, that the Olympia had a capacity of about 15,000. And with less legroom and narrower seating, it's no wonder it seemed more up close: it was a substantially smaller building than a modern arena. You might disagree about this, but I think most paying fans are happy to have more legroom, wider seats, more concession stands, and plentiful rest rooms. I think they can keep it somewhat more intimate than other venues [[which is why, I think they are not building a 20,000+ seat facility) while making the modern creature comforts plentiful.

You are spot on that more people these days want all the amenities. I'm a dinosaur of a sports fan. I grew up going to the games before sports became corporate entertainment. I rarely go nowadays and just watch on TV. If they ever get rid of the canned dj music at hockey games and bring back the organist I would go to more games.

[Mackinaw]

I hope for the following:

-The arena abuts Woodward directly … I don't think I'll get my wish. There will be at least a half-block buffer
-If not, then there better not be parking lagoons along Woodward as with Comerica Park… I might get this wish.
-All parking garages, no surface lots… possibly. I mean, look at JLA-- it did great with just a few garages nearby
-An attached practice rink open for youth leagues and community skates, to keep the "district" busy every day of the year and to support the retailers who move in… Anything else would be a stupid waste of an opportunity-- the footprint is huge [[in fact, like most stadium developments anywhere outside of NYC, the land acquisition is incredibly overbroad. I just can't believe it is all for an "entertainment district," at least one one that will realistically be developed. I tend to think we'll see a lot of surface parking, as Illitches won't be able to resist the temptation of leaving all of that fallow land they are purchasing…fallow. I hope I am wrong.
-Fieldhouse style design, like a big Yost, Olympia Revival, OR, super modern out of this world design.

And while I am making wishes, let's see Olympia sell it's Woodward Avenue parking lagoons by Comerica Park to Dan Gilbert or some other developer. Build 8-15 story buildings with roof decks that peer onto the CoPa field. Consolidate the Parking with a new garage on the surface lot abutting the Fisher. Why is good land use so hard to come by with anything Olympia touches?

Lastly, the two hotels absolutely must be spared and redeveloped. This won't feel like much of a 'district' without some vestiges of the extant streetscape, some height, and some residents. These buildings accomplish just that. I hope, but doubt, that Olympia has the guts to open the arena even with these buildings remaining vacant. Any redevelopment will take time, and it may well take a couple more years to get a new developer. But if all goes well, financing with fall into place very soon and their redevelopment can be announced in conjunction with the arena development. That's very wishful thinking, and I am already preparing for a demolition announcement. Like Madison Lenox part deux.

[Zads07]

-An attached practice rink open for youth leagues and community skates, to keep the "district" busy every day of the year and to support the retailers who move in…

I was just going to say this. It would be phenomenal to see a practice rink, something like New Jersey has.

http://www.ahpavilion.com/index.php

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

We all have our preferences, and many people here have posted good ideas [[even if all the good ideas couldn't possibly coexist with each other). I think a few things are for sure: the new arena will be more accessible and better integrated with the surrounding blocks than JLA, have more and better perks for patrons, and be a more attractive structure, becoming the top area venue for arena-scale events. Aside from the beloved Wings and some fond memories of WWF events as a kid for me, there are few redeeming qualities inherent in Joe Louis Arena. I can't imagine the new arena will be anything less than a big improvement in every respect. Will the new place meet all my dreams and expectations? Probably not. But I think I'll love it anyway. Can't wait to see renderings. And I hope they do facility tours. I've gone on the Ford Field tour like 4 times. Love it.

[Mackinaw]

Zads07: great minds think alike. Pitched the idea awhile back on an arena mega-thread: http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...219#post419219

I am familiar with Newark's arena, and though it's underperformed in terms of spurring development in the adjacent redevelopment area [[mostly due to some atrocious planning and eminent domain land-grabs by the City in the 2002-2005 time frame), the community rink has been a bright point. I have personally experienced how it brings a bit of vitality when the team is out of town or out of season.

Mikey I think you said you really liked the Prudential Center. I think it's just alright. Not too exciting, but a great configuration inside and great sight lines. Still, if I had to choose between JLA and the Pru Ctr. plunked down in Detroit, I'd choose JLA from a hockey-watching standpoint-- the Pru doesn't had that much value added for me. To make this whole undertaking worth it, I think the Wings need something cutting edge.