So OC is now paying $3M for a study to determine water options

[douglasm]

The one thing I haven't heard anyone recommend is a "utility district". I don't know if they're legal in Michigan......my Mother 20 years ago tried to create a library district in Clare County and ran into legal roadblocks......but it's an idea worth considering. Out here in Washington, fire, water, sewer, libraries and other services are provided in many areas by "districts", that is defined legal areas that cross city and county lines with their own elected governing board to operate them. If it would be possible to turn the the whole mess into a water/sewer district run by a board elected by voters inside the district, it would cure any number of political problems.

As to OC [[or any other political entity) setting up their own water/sewer system, the costs would kill them. A couple of years ago, the little town I'm a councilman in completed a ground up sewer system to service all of 215 REU's at a cost of $7.5M. And that's when TARP funds were available to help pay for it. I've seen numbers on this thread of $200M. That might buy you 15 miles of pipe.

[corktownyuppie]

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._river_default

Hackel said he'd rather have Detroit Mayor Mike Duggan at the table if regional negotiations continue."I think it's important we have the mayor at the table and discussing these things, [[who) the people of city of Detroit elected and put in this position," he said.

Orr [[and the creditors...retirees...banks, etc.) see DWSD as a revenue source. Hackel and Patterson are looking at this like a public utility, looking to minimize rates for all water users [[including Detroiters).

But there's one problem. DWSD isn't owned by Macomb or Oakland. It's owned by Detroit, and which has an obligation to itself and its creditors to maximize revenue in a way that it can't while it's an enterprise entity.

So coming at this from the question, "How can we minimize rates for the end users?" is the wrong question.

The right question is, "We are either going pay a "profit premium" to Detroit, or we are going to pay a "profit premium" to a private entity. Keeping the profit premium in house and sharing it with the end users is simply not an option on the table, so what terms can we demand to minimize the effects of either of those alternatives on the end user?"

My sense is that either the interpersonal bargaining is so fraught with distrust that they'd prefer Duggan to Orr. Or that Orr is essentially a "lame duck", so there can't be any quid pro quo offered in the back room...where as Duggan has to live with these neighbors for the next 4 years, so he might be more willing to deal.

It also shows that at some level Oakland and Macomb County both know that there is some improvement which will come when the suburbs are allowed to have operational control and management of DWSD....the only question is "at what cost does a private operator become a better deal?"

I would also be unopposed to having DWSD liquidated and for the city to get a lump sum cash. The purchase could even be a tri-country authority with the suburbs being in majority power. But the judge already said that liquidations are off the table [[a la the DIA).

I still think there is a solution here; it'll be interesting to see what happens. The fact that Hackel is expressing an interest to bring Duggan to the table means that this is far from a dead deal.

[coracle]

All you need to know about regionalization of DWDS is that Ficano is in favor of it, to know it's a bad "deal". Mark Hackel and LBP both know this isn't about water it's about the redistribution of taxes from the suburbs to run Detroit and repair the system. While they are "prepared" to negotiate, recognize they are playing to the gallery.

[corktownyuppie]

All you need to know about regionalization of DWDS is that Ficano is in favor of it, to know it's a bad "deal". Mark Hackel and LBP both know this isn't about water it's about the redistribution of taxes from the suburbs to run Detroit and repair the system. While they are "prepared" to negotiate, recognize they are playing to the gallery.

Well to clarify, I don't think they're getting a good deal either. In fact I pretty much think they're gonna get a bad deal. My point is that the proposed bad deal may honestly be better than any of the other alternatives.

[Jimaz]

From yesterday's Free Press: Wayne County requests mediator in water talks; Macomb County says forget it - for now

Macomb County Executive Mark Hackel said in blunt terms Thursday that he’s done with discussions about regionalizing the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department....

[Hackel:]"...As soon as Kevyn Orr is gone, we’ll continue our regional efforts. ... He is not one of the regional partners. He’s here for one reason: to settle bankruptcy and deal with creditors. Every time we’ve talked with Orr, he’s had nothing to say about the integrity of the system or about protecting ratepayers. When he’s gone, I’ll be more than happy to sit down."

Wow. That's surprisingly harsh. That depicts Orr's very presence as an impediment to the process.

[coracle]

It's not harsh at all JimAz. Orr's job doesn't include the suburbs, only inasmuch they present a lucrative buyer for DWDS. As long as he gets Detroit out of bankruptcy with a steady stream of money coming in from a reliable source he's done his job. Mark Hackel and HBP are both interested in the well being of the suburbs first and don't want to be conned into a bad deal locking the suburbs in for 40 years to finance Detroit who will probably revert back to its previous spending practices once Orr has left. Best for them to wait until Detroit is no longer a bankrupt. All you need to know is that Ficano is for the deal to realize it's a loser for Oakland and Macomb [[and Wayne in the long run)

[corktownyuppie]

It's not harsh at all JimAz. Orr's job doesn't include the suburbs, only inasmuch they present a lucrative buyer for DWDS. As long as he gets Detroit out of bankruptcy with a steady stream of money coming in from a reliable source he's done his job. Mark Hackel and HBP are both interested in the well being of the suburbs first and don't want to be conned into a bad deal locking the suburbs in for 40 years to finance Detroit who will probably revert back to its previous spending practices once Orr has left. Best for them to wait until Detroit is no longer a bankrupt. All you need to know is that Ficano is for the deal to realize it's a loser for Oakland and Macomb [[and Wayne in the long run)

I generally agree with two additions:

1) Detroit will not control its spending after Orr leaves. The NYC model put the state in control for 3 decades. I expect the same here.

2) the regional deal may be a bad deal for the suburbs. But the alternative of not taking it might turn out to be worse.

[coracle]

I generally agree with two additions:

1) Detroit will not control it's spending after Orr leaves. The NYC model put the state in control for 3 decades. I expect the same here.

2) the regional deal may be a bad deal for the suburbs. But the alternative of not taking it might turn out to be worse.

On #1 you're probably right but not being a City resident myself the potential for behind the scenes spending of our tax dollars disproportionally on the City to the detriment of other parts of the State concerns me. Especially when the politics of the ruling party in Lansing becomes the same as in Detroit.
As for your #2. I'm not sure. I can't envision anything worse that being locked in to a payment for 40 years as well as the unknown current and future maintenance cost and then owning nothing. Unfortunately again I think your ideas are more likely to occur than mine in this endeavor. My only hope is that Mark/Brooks keeps the faith and don't negotiate before the bankruptcy is sorted out.
I really don't mind paying Detroit 50% more for my water but I don't want to pay to "own" it for a little while - there's no advantage at all.

[coracle]

http://www.freep.com/article/2014041...nty-bankruptcy
We've reached the most dangerous phase for the Suburbs. The Suburbs DON'T WANT TO MEDIATE; Detroit "don't want to mediate" after it "has participated in good faith in negotiations" but ".. will, of course, abide by the Court's order.” which is an overt demand to the courts to stick it to the Suburbs or they will use their money to build their own system. The game is on.

[Jimaz]

I moved from Arizona to a pleasant peninsula near 21% of the world's surface fresh water only to find another war over water.

Irony².

[corktownyuppie]

http://www.freep.com/article/2014041...nty-bankruptcy
We've reached the most dangerous phase for the Suburbs. The Suburbs DON'T WANT TO MEDIATE; Detroit "don't want to mediate" after it "has participated in good faith in negotiations" but ".. will, of course, abide by the Court's order.” which is an overt demand to the courts to stick it to the Suburbs or they will use their money to build their own system. The game is on.

The half-hearted breakup letters going back and forth are hilarious...if you really want to break it off, you stop talking. You don't say "I have decided that we are getting a divorce, unless..."

[corktownyuppie]

This is really getting comical. For 4 parties who claim there is no deal to be had, they sure are spending a lot of energy listing reasons why the deal isn't dead yet.

Oakland County cries foul after Detroit says water negotiations have 'run their course'
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._river_default

[jt1]

This is really getting comical. For 4 parties who claim there is no deal to be had, they sure are spending a lot of energy listing reasons why the deal isn't dead yet.

Oakland County cries foul after Detroit says water negotiations have 'run their course'
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._river_default

Bluff called now OC wants to recant the bluff. So funny. All the while OC and MC don't pay any attention to the increases in electricity, gas, insurance and all of the other services that aren't supplied by the city.

Hopefully a mediator will determine that the city can use this as a revenue stream by selling it all off.

[rb336]

Bluff called now OC wants to recant the bluff. So funny. All the while OC and MC don't pay any attention to the increases in electricity, gas, insurance and all of the other services that aren't supplied by the city.

Hopefully a mediator will determine that the city can use this as a revenue stream by selling it all off.

I wonder what the value of the water system is.

OC and MC communities have been blaming Detroit for the high prices of water for YEARS, but Detroit's wholesale rates are among the lowest in the country. The high price is the surcharges the cities/counties tack on to the bill.

[brizee]

Bluff called now OC wants to recant the bluff. So funny. All the while OC and MC don't pay any attention to the increases in electricity, gas, insurance and all of the other services that aren't supplied by the city.

Hopefully a mediator will determine that the city can use this as a revenue stream by selling it all off.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2014304140102

But not all Oakland County officials were still as open to negotiations.

“I think the [[Detroit) water department should be taken away from the city of Detroit by the state, reorganized and given back to the region. That’s just how I feel,” said Oakland County Commissioner Bob Gosselin, R-Troy, who was appointed in March to chair a study group on the water and sewer system for the board of commissioners.

Yet Detroiters and black people are so quick to get slapped with the "entitled" label.

[jt1]

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2014304140102



Yet Detroiters and black people are so quick to get slapped with the "entitled" label.

Sadly, most of his constituents will agree with him. MC and OC are all about regionalization when there is a revenue stream.

I propose that we make the water system regional with no fees however OC and MC must also agree to regionalism for an even distribution of the homeless, an even distribution of half way houses and section 8 vouchers, an even distribution of care for the mentally ill. I'm sure there are a myriad of other items that need to be 'regionalized' as well.

I would go so far as to say these should be split by community, not just county [[so there can't be dumping in Pontiac and Mount Clemens)

[jt1]

A quick look at his election site also lists this doozy of a comment:

If we don’t elect Republicans to run Oakland County then we leave it up to big government to make bad spending decisions. This will affect our life style and start us down the road that Wayne County and Detroit have been on for years

[Hermod]

Sadly, most of his constituents will agree with him. MC and OC are all about regionalization when there is a revenue stream.

I propose that we make the water system regional with no fees however OC and MC must also agree to regionalism for an even distribution of the homeless, an even distribution of half way houses and section 8 vouchers, an even distribution of care for the mentally ill. I'm sure there are a myriad of other items that need to be 'regionalized' as well.

I would go so far as to say these should be split by community, not just county [[so there can't be dumping in Pontiac and Mount Clemens)

Suppose you rounded up all of the homeless [[plain, substance abusers, and mentally ill) and bussed them up to da yoopee and turned them loose. How long would it be before they migrated back to Detroit?

[corktownyuppie]

This is really getting comical. For 4 parties who claim there is no deal to be had, they sure are spending a lot of energy listing reasons why the deal isn't dead yet.

Oakland County cries foul after Detroit says water negotiations have 'run their course'
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._river_default

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...ater-authority

As predicted.

[Willi]

DWSD and Macomb County have been getting water from Lake Huron for a long time.
New pipeline for Flint just adds opportunity to the current supply for Macomb County