Why Have We Decided That A Guy Who Became A Billionaire Selling Us Cheap Pizza Is God

[downtownguy]

Abe Pollin is revered in D.C. for what he did with Verizon Center and the Gallery Place area.

And, as you already pointed out:

"The Verizon Center was built in the mid-1990s solely with private financing and was originally owned by Abe Pollin from 1997 to June 2010. "

I might revere Ilitch too, if he paid for the arena with his own money.

[emu steve]

And, as you already pointed out:

"The Verizon Center was built in the mid-1990s solely with private financing and was originally owned by Abe Pollin from 1997 to June 2010. "

I might revere Ilitch too, if he paid for the arena with his own money.

See, we're making progress.

There seems to be TWO debates going on:

1). Do [[or can) sports stadia and arena lead to a revitalization of an area which is under utilized? [[that area north of Fisher is definitely under utilized. It's an urban wasteland.)

2). Should the owner[[s) of a sports team receive subsidies from city, county or state governments for a stadium or arena?

There are case studies regarding #1.

Number #2 is personal opinion.

[Bham1982]

There are case studies regarding #1.

Number #2 is personal opinion.

Again, there is pretty much universal agreement that sports stadia do not cause economic development.

You can spin it any way you want, but it doesn't create economic growth and jobs. Your own DC examples show this.

[emu steve]

Again, there is pretty much universal agreement that sports stadia do not cause economic development.

You can spin it any way you want, but it doesn't create economic growth and jobs. Your own DC examples show this.

I'm tempted to start pulling my hair out or throw my mouse at the wall or television.

You just contradicted everything I posted about Verizon Center and Nationals Park. [[You could have picked stupid development e.g., that Dome where the Lions used to play, to make a counter point but not Verizon.)

The only adverse effect I know was that the drug dealers had to move on...

[antongast]

I'm tempted to start pulling my hair out or throw my mouse at the wall or television.

Well, now you know how the rest of us feel as we helplessly watch the city fund these bullshit projects over and over and over and over...

[rb336]

Well, now you know how the rest of us feel as we helplessly watch the city fund these bullshit projects over and over and over and over...

How much is it going to COST the city? Not how much is publicly funded, but how much of that will come out of existing city funds? If this is a bullshit project, what sort of project would YOU like to see? Do you like ​anything?

[Bham1982]

How much is it going to COST the city? Not how much is publicly funded, but how much of that will come out of existing city funds? If this is a bullshit project, what sort of project would YOU like to see? Do you like ​anything?

Don't worry, the city, awash in vast riches, has already agreed to subsidize billionaire Illitch. They even agreed to not try and market JLA for any revenue use, which probably breaks new ground in billionaire sports owner d-baggery.

As to "what would someone like to rather see", you can't be serious. How about anything? Detroit is short of funds for everything and anything. Just pick a city function.

[rb336]

Don't worry, the city, awash in vast riches, has already agreed to subsidize billionaire Illitch. They even agreed to not try and market JLA for any revenue use, which probably breaks new ground in billionaire sports owner d-baggery.

As to "what would someone like to rather see", you can't be serious. How about anything? Detroit is short of funds for everything and anything. Just pick a city function.

You fail, utterly, to grasp the situation. There is NO OUTLAY OF CITY FUNDS. The money for the arena district can't be used for anything else because without the arena those funds are non-existent. It really isn't that difficult to grasp

[antongast]

Do you like ​anything?

It's a short list, but there are a few things I like. I like the Cass Corridor, when it's not crawling with drunken assholes from the suburbs. I like that my rent is affordable and that my neighbors come from all walks of life. I like making billionaires cry. I like public accountability. I had a pretty decent brunch the other weekend.

What do you like, apart from publicly subsidized hockey rinks?

[Lombaowski]

And, as you already pointed out:

"The Verizon Center was built in the mid-1990s solely with private financing and was originally owned by Abe Pollin from 1997 to June 2010. "

I might revere Ilitch too, if he paid for the arena with his own money.

That's a fair point, Ilitch is one of the ten richest owners in all of sports too, so I do understand that sentiment. Pollin bought in as DC was changing though and the revitalization of Chinatown. He also didn't want to get caught up in very murky DC politics, which for example...has totally screwed up the Nationals Stadium situation up to this point.

I think Pollin was a smart business man more than anything, he realized that property was likely to rise exponentially in value. And it has. It's a nice arena, I go there quite often.

Nats stadium is completely flawed. They blocked the best views with parking garages [[and the parking still sucks), there is very little in the way of bars and restaurants, and the supposed economic shot in the arm for the depressed Anacostia area has really never come. It would basically be like Detroit forcing Ilitch to build his new arena in Delray or Brightmoor, it just hasn't worked thus far.

I would guess it will as DC becomes more and more gentrified and housing prices are horrifically high so people are looking for deals, but that area is largely still chop shops, public housing, and old factories. It's not as bad as a location as Citifield in Queens or where Baltimore Memorial was, but it's pretty bad. I think the White Sox even play in a better neighborhood.

[emu steve]

That's a fair point, Ilitch is one of the ten richest owners in all of sports too, so I do understand that sentiment. Pollin bought in as DC was changing though and the revitalization of Chinatown. He also didn't want to get caught up in very murky DC politics, which for example...has totally screwed up the Nationals Stadium situation up to this point.

I think Pollin was a smart business man more than anything, he realized that property was likely to rise exponentially in value. And it has. It's a nice arena, I go there quite often.

Nats stadium is completely flawed. They blocked the best views with parking garages [[and the parking still sucks), there is very little in the way of bars and restaurants, and the supposed economic shot in the arm for the depressed Anacostia area has really never come. It would basically be like Detroit forcing Ilitch to build his new arena in Delray or Brightmoor, it just hasn't worked thus far.

I would guess it will as DC becomes more and more gentrified and housing prices are horrifically high so people are looking for deals, but that area is largely still chop shops, public housing, and old factories. It's not as bad as a location as Citifield in Queens or where Baltimore Memorial was, but it's pretty bad. I think the White Sox even play in a better neighborhood.

Bingo. Bingo. Bingo:

"I think Pollin was a smart business man more than anything, he realized that property was likely to rise exponentially in value."

Pollin helped create a D.C. 'land rush' and profited from it.

And that makes my point: A well conceived stadium/arena project CAN create very significant increase in development and land values in the area of the facility. American capitalism at its best.

One contrary point: Nationals Park was only intended to help spur development in 'near southeast' or the area south of the freeway to the Anacostia River. It did nothing for Anacostia, which is on the other side of the river. It did almost nothing [[except one new apartment building in SouthWest D.C.).

Here is the BEST D.C. site specializing in the near southeast area [[Nationals Park). The web person has thousands of photos going back to 2003. Nationals' Park opened in 2008.

Lot of 'before and after' photos - empirical evidence.

http://www.jdland.com/dc/archive.cfm

[emu steve]

IF one, seriously, wants to see what a stadium can do for an area, here are the demolitions for April and May, 2006.

One may also note that yes, it was an urban wasteland and even had asphalt company and assorted other stuff. Another photo [[different page) shows concrete silos [[?) which have been demolished.

http://www.jdland.com/dc/demolished-...006&ballpark=y

Anyone who thinks this was prime development land is a fool or a liar.

It was an eyesore! And far enough away from even DOT and the subway that it would never have developed.

[Pickford-Bentler]

Hahaha. Not old Frank Rizzo? There's a definite conflict of interests there ...

Frank's brother by another mother????

[Bham1982]

Pollin helped create a D.C. 'land rush' and profited from it.

Again, Polin had 0 to do with a "land rush" in DC.

Downtown DC has boomed because the region has boomed, particularly federal spending and related contractors. It has absolutely nothing to do with basketball or hockey.

If Detroit ever booms, I promise you it will have nothing to do with where the Red Wings play. They could play in Romeo and if downtown Detroit has booming economic conditions, it won't matter a bit.

I mean, why did those idiots in Paris build the Stade de France in the suburbs? Don't they know that sports are essential to urban vibrancy? And why do the NY football teams play in the Meadowlands? Better we knock down Midtown for some stadium bowl and room for tailgating...

[Bham1982]

You fail, utterly, to grasp the situation. There is NO OUTLAY OF CITY FUNDS. The money for the arena district can't be used for anything else because without the arena those funds are non-existent. It really isn't that difficult to grasp

Not true; there is an outlay of city funds. And JLA is owned by the city, so obviously any restrictions on JLA are an additional city subsidy.

[Hermod]

In the days when Jack Kent Cooke ran the Redskins, they played at RFK Stadium. Cooke wanted a new stadium there and was prepared to pay for it all with his own money. At the time, the Redskins had a winning team and were far more popular than basketball or baseball. All Cooke wanted was for the US Department of interior and the City of Washington to let him build. The bureaucrats in DOI wanted to slow walk the project to show thir power and the city of Washington wanted all kinds of set aside contracts for friends and family and obstructed everything. Cooke went out into Anne Arundel County, Maryland and bought some land and built his stadium. The mayor of Washington went on TV as to how Cooke had "disrespected" Washington DC.

[rb336]

Not true; there is an outlay of city funds. And JLA is owned by the city, so obviously any restrictions on JLA are an additional city subsidy.

JLA go buhbye. What, exactly, is the outlay of city funds?

[Pickford-Bentler]

In the days when Jack Kent Cooke ran the Redskins, they played at RFK Stadium. Cooke wanted a new stadium there and was prepared to pay for it all with his own money. At the time, the Redskins had a winning team and were far more popular than basketball or baseball. All Cooke wanted was for the US Department of interior and the City of Washington to let him build. The bureaucrats in DOI wanted to slow walk the project to show thir power and the city of Washington wanted all kinds of set aside contracts for friends and family and obstructed everything. Cooke went out into Anne Arundel County, Maryland and bought some land and built his stadium. The mayor of Washington went on TV as to how Cooke had "disrespected" Washington DC.

The horse racetrack site in Anne Arundel that Cooke wanted to build the stadium fell through because people who lived in that region did not want a stadium and the sea of asphalt required for parking. He also proposed to utilize the Potomac Yard site. The people living there, correctly in hindsight, felt there were other options more amenable to property values. He ended up building his stadium in Landover which is in PG County. Going to a game there is akin to getting a root canal. I refuse free tickets. Back in the RFK days, it was fun to ride the Metro, get off and walk to that old dump that had character. It is like the football team and hockey team reversed roles. I take any free offer of tickets for a Caps game. The entrance is right by the Metro escalator. When they were stuck at the Cap Center in PG, going to game was like crossing the 14th Street bridge at 5PM on a work day.

[emu steve]

The horse racetrack site in Anne Arundel that Cooke wanted to build the stadium fell through because people who lived in that region did not want a stadium and the sea of asphalt required for parking. He also proposed to utilize the Potomac Yard site. The people living there, correctly in hindsight, felt there were other options more amenable to property values. He ended up building his stadium in Landover which is in PG County. Going to a game there is akin to getting a root canal. I refuse free tickets. Back in the RFK days, it was fun to ride the Metro, get off and walk to that old dump that had character. It is like the football team and hockey team reversed roles. I take any free offer of tickets for a Caps game. The entrance is right by the Metro escalator. When they were stuck at the Cap Center in PG, going to game was like crossing the 14th Street bridge at 5PM on a work day.

Agree with what you posted.

FedEx was a process which went very badly. FedEx was Cooke's last choice after all others failed.

Yes, Potomac Yards is doing very well with a nice shopping center and a lot of new housing. A football stadium would have not been the best usage of that land.

Capital Centre was another bad project.

Folks here [[D.C.) knew Verizon would be a success. And knew Nationals Park would be a success.

Building within the central city is a good thing.

[Honky Tonk]

JLA go buhbye. What, exactly, is the outlay of city funds?

http://www.freep.com/article/2014032...ition-M-1-Rail

...........

[SDCC]

Petco Park is having its ten year anniversary – actually the date has passed, it was March 11, 2004. I came across this report, which has been in the media. The data was generated by the National University System – Institute For Policy Research Division.
Petco Park: in the last 10 years.
Petco Park is credited with adding residents downtown, the area right around Petco Park seems to have benefited the most. The condominiums, apartments and shops appreciate the anchor and foundation that ties, or supports, the neighborhood Petco Park calls home – East Village. The area immediately surrounding Petco is exclusive, several units overlook the Park itself, the perfect seats. East Village was and is, a genuine neighborhood filled with young, urban, working professionals. The neighborhood is fairly expensive, there are however empty lots, east and south of the ballpark - that need to be tended to and fenced off, these areas are havens for the homeless. East Village has some of the nicest apartments and condos downtown, however East Village is the face of homelessness in San Diego. It is a challenging neighborhood to build, sell or develop.
Petco didn’t add any jobs to San Diego’s downtown
Petco did increase downtown residents
Petco Park did generate money, millions of dollars in San Diego’s pockets
Petco is perfect for downtown San Diego, and the perfect fit for East Village.
http://padrespublic.com/ghost-of-ray...of-petco-park/

The local San Diego Fox affiliate discussing same report...

http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/03/25/n...#axzz2yQcoClpo

I found this article exposing recurring charges the city agreed to pay, this was only news to the public. The amount that San Diegan's are on the hook for is 30% of the Padres operating costs...this amounts to 3 million dollars the city is picking up [[call it a gratuity) leaving around 7 million for the Padres to pay.
This is a token amount of money, worth every penny - representative of the positive impact Petco Park has had on development and property valves in East Village.

http://www.10news.com/news/who-pays-...or-petco-park-

Now there is talk of building a new football stadium, right next to Petco Park.

[emu steve]

Petco Park is having its ten year anniversary – actually the date has passed, it was March 11, 2004. I came across this report, which has been in the media. The data was generated by the National University System – Institute For Policy Research Division.
Petco Park: in the last 10 years.
Petco Park is credited with adding residents downtown, the area right around Petco Park seems to have benefited the most. The condominiums, apartments and shops appreciate the anchor and foundation that ties, or supports, the neighborhood Petco Park calls home – East Village. The area immediately surrounding Petco is exclusive, several units overlook the Park itself, the perfect seats. East Village was and is, a genuine neighborhood filled with young, urban, working professionals. The neighborhood is fairly expensive, there are however empty lots, east and south of the ballpark - that need to be tended to and fenced off, these areas are havens for the homeless. East Village has some of the nicest apartments and condos downtown, however East Village is the face of homelessness in San Diego. It is a challenging neighborhood to build, sell or develop.
Petco didn’t add any jobs to San Diego’s downtown
Petco did increase downtown residents
Petco Park did generate money, millions of dollars in San Diego’s pockets
Petco is perfect for downtown San Diego, and the perfect fit for East Village.

Now there is talk of building a new football stadium, right next to Petco Park.

http://padrespublic.com/ghost-of-ray...of-petco-park/

Sounds somewhat like Nationals Park which opened six month before the crash.

I don't know what the 'official' count is, but thousands now live in the area called 'near southeast' before that area was light industrial or urban wasteland.

They literally have built thousands of housing units, mostly apartments in rental or condominium ownership.

[Pickford-Bentler]

Sounds somewhat like Nationals Park which opened six month before the crash.

I don't know what the 'official' count is, but thousands now live in the area called 'near southeast' before that area was light industrial or urban wasteland.

They literally have built thousands of housing units, mostly apartments in rental or condominium ownership.

That was not a good area. Drug dealers were operating out of Potomac Gardens and that wasteland was an area where customers from Northern Va. would score whatever they were looking for. A lot of them used the Metro to avoid a seizure of their car, if busted by the cops.

My brother worked there when NAVSEA moved to the Navy Yard. Initially, there were problems with street people hassling workers walking to the Metro. As time moved on, he said things got a lot better as more development took hold.

[emu steve]

That was not a good area. Drug dealers were operating out of Potomac Gardens and that wasteland was an area where customers from Northern Va. would score whatever they were looking for. A lot of them used the Metro to avoid a seizure of their car, if busted by the cops.

My brother worked there when NAVSEA moved to the Navy Yard. Initially, there were problems with street people hassling workers walking to the Metro. As time moved on, he said things got a lot better as more development took hold.

Good points.

That area had a subway stop, Navy Yard, DOT, etc. and nothing could turn that area around.

One might think that those 'assets' would be enough to trigger development but it didn't happen.

That area was full of strip clubs [['grandfathered in'), chop shops, drugs, etc. and they were happy operating 'out of sight/out of mind'.

Too many people had a vested interest in the area NOT being developed.

And it might be noted that when D.C. started eminent domain for the stadium footprint they had to win court fights.

Folks in that area fought the stadium tooth and nail.

[Pickford-Bentler]

"Too many people had a vested interest in the area NOT being developed.."



My father use to say that about the areas in Detroit, including his, with lots of abandoned homes. It was his view that Detroit was controlled by the drug dealers who had bought off everybody from the Mayor on down. And they had a vested interests in keeping Detroit the way it was/is.

One time, when I was visiting, all the dogs started barking. So I look out the window of my folks home and see two black males exit the abandoned home on the corner, get in car, and drive away. Ten minutes later, the dogs start yapping again. I look out the window and see a single white male in combat fatigues boost himself though an open window of that home and emerge with a package.

This was back in 1990, when crack destroyed where I grew up.

So I suppose any kind of development that takes away cover for various forms of illegal activity can have a positive impact.